Japan, Korea etc are not a military threat. China is huge and can produce everything faster and without any outside resources unlike the US which can't even protect their borders from illegal immigrants let alone agree any sort of coherent foreign policy. China is not encumbered by any such bureaucratic red tape and could become the premminet world power within the next decade.
If you don't find that a bit disconcerting then you are totally in denial. Loss of high tech manufacturing in the US, whenever it began, is a very dangerous situation.
You said it. We've got our share of blood on our hands in this country but do we really want to give yet more superpower status to the butchers of Tibet?
If you don't find that a bit disconcerting then you are totally in denial. Loss of high tech manufacturing in the US, whenever it began, is a very dangerous situation.
Nah, it's more about that I don't live in Orange County. It's one world now, my brother.
Actually, I know guy in L.A., in Echo Park, who would agree with you. Ya gotta think big and think progressive. Business interdependence will do more to prevent war than all the nationalist paranoia you can muster up. The Chinese can be liberalized, humanized, cooperatized. Even Americans can learn to live as citizens of the world—maybe.
Seriously, though, there is a wild card in the deck. The most ubiquitous piece of technology ever has yet to appear, yet to come out of Apple. It may well be manufactured here, because the technology is new enough that the production might as well be done here as anywhere. I am referring to wearable screens, as in glasses. To repeat, it will be huger than anything yet to appear.
You said it. We've got our share of blood on our hands in this country but do we really want to give yet more superpower status to the butchers of Tibet?
Cf. the butchers of North America. Perhaps you've heard there were people in the way of Manifest Destiny.
And don't let's forget Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden.
Nah, it's more about that I don't live in Orange County. It's one world now, my brother.
Actually, I know guy in L.A., in Echo Park, who would agree with you. Ya gotta think big and think progressive. Business interdependence will do more to prevent war than all the nationalist paranoia you can muster up. The Chinese can be liberalized, humanized, cooperatized. Even Americans can learn to live as citizens of the world?maybe.
Beat those swords to ploughshares. Peace and love my brother.
Ever wonder why it has never worked out in all of history.
Because that just isn't the way the animal kingdom works.
Beat those swords to ploughshares. Peace and love my brother.
Ever wonder why it has never worked out in all of history.
Because that just isn't the way the animal kingdom works.
Aha, you've fallen into my hands.
As T.H. Huxley said about the Rev. what's-his-name in the debate over Darwin. Only he said "God hath delivered him into my hands." But I don't think God belongs in this context, but in another, the following.
War on an organized scale belongs to relatively recent humans, namely the Indo-Europeans from the central Asian steppes. Marija Gimbutas and others have demonstrated that there were several thousand years of civilization in the Mediterranean and the river valleys of Europe where weapon making for the purpose of murder—war—was unknown. Thousands of years of highly evolved village and town life were lived on a cooperative, non-dominative basis.
The Indo-Europeans first hunted the horse, then became the first to tame and ride them. They used this new "skill" as a raiding technique on the settled communities of Old Europe—Gimbutas's term for the previous, forgotten civilization. Being nomadic, they invented the wheel to haul their goods, and then came up with the war chariot. They were unstoppable, and they took over from India to Iran to Anatolia, Greece, all of Europe including Britain, as Celts and Anglo-Saxons.
We still live under their warlike mandate. It did not exist before as an organized ethos. Cooperation did.
Further reading: any of Gimbutas's books, Anthony's Horse, Wheel and Language, Riane Eisler's The Chalice and the Blade (a bit sappy but true), James Melaart Earliest Civilizations of the Near East.
Not a well-known line of thought, in fact suppressed by male-dominant mythology in both archeology and anthropology. Check it out, if you dare to risk your presuppositions.
Humans are wired for cooperation and empathy. Ever traveled and met strangers?
I almost forgot the God part. It was the I-Es who invented the remote mountain-storm-war patriarch-god to support their own patriarchal ways. Abraham got infected with this idea when he was living near the Mitanni and the Hittites. See Merlin Stone, The Paradise Papers/When God Was a Woman—"Was Yahweh Indo-European?" or something like that.
Uh, no not really. Slaves got a roof over their heads and had very little else to show for their 14 hours a day at the end of a month. They were beaten or even killed if they tried to organize other slaves to change things. The fact that unions are basically illegal in China - and that people are jailed, beaten and also killed for trying to press for worker's rights there - levels your comparison of Chinese labor with that of unionized workers in the west (who are (*were*) often far from unskilled). The only difference is that in China they're "free" to quit and go take another job under the exact same conditions and with the exact same lack of protection. You need to factor in poverty and what that can make people do to put food in their bellies - crazy things like travel for days in the hope of getting picked to work in a dead-end factory job so they too can get a roof over their heads, also without much more to show for it at the end of the month.
You apparently don't know jack about slavery. Slaves didn't organize to "change" things. Slaves had to organize to escape because slavery was the law of the land so there was no way TO change anything. The change in laws was left to white abolitionists and the few freed persons around. Also, having the choice between low paying jobs is a hell of a lot different than having ZERO choice and having members of your family sold off to other areas of the country. And let's not forget rape and forced breeding. Also, as far as I know, it is not illegal for these Chinese workers to learn to read or go in public without foxconn's permission.
The US has never known how to make microelectronics, other than chip fabrication. All mass manufacture of consumer electroncs went to Japan, Korea, China, Singapore, etc. decades ago.
The US never made VCRs, cameras of any quality, video cameras, solid state radios or televisions, most computers and computer parts, LCD screens, and so on. There is no reservoir of expertise here, maybe the most important factor besides parts proximity when anyone contemplates opening a plant.
Steve Jobs could have been a bit misleading when he said "those jobs aren't coming back." They were never in the US to begin with! Yes, Apple manufactured here when the electronics were an order of magnitude less fine, but practically all the large-scale production experience of micromanufacturing is in Asia. Even robot design and manufacturing, I would imagine?correct me if I'm wrong on that.
You anti-union, anti-government memeopaths are missing the point by miles, thousands of miles.
Silicon Valley is where brilliant things are designed and engineered. THIS reservoir of expertise must be protected, appreciated, encouraged, insead of hated. (And hated for the stupidest possible reasons?looking at you dasanman69 and myapplelove).
Is there another phone maker based in the US for you to appreciate? Or computer maker? Or large-scale innovator? No there is not.
Unbelieveable the treachery in this thread, and duplicity. Bitching at Apple because they don't manufacture here. NOBODY can DO the micromanufacuring here. In all the world, only Apple is doing an honest job of ORIGINATING and DESIGNING the products here to be manufactured where they should be, where the expertise is, elsewhere. And that is creating jobs, both here and aound the world. And they're just getting started. A whole lot of money that has been going to Asia is now going to start coming back. They are going to outgrow their new headquarters in five years, just watch.
Better figure out how to meet the Chinese halfway and stop pretending the US is king of the world. We all have our talents. This is what Apple has built its business on, working with people around the world. It's one of their core values, expertly developed by Tim Cook, obviously.
I wish you guys would enlarge your horizons. Your narrow focus, antievolutionary as it is, is what's killing political economics in this country.
Edit: nicely anticipated by DominoXML above. And jragosta and slurpy, as usual, doing yeoman anti-FUD work.
Where did I say I hate Apple? Because I'm critical of their boasting does not equate hatred. I do not think Apple set out to hurt other industries.
I'm not in the "Apple should bring manufacturing here" boat, we've transitioned to a service economy.
You said it. We've got our share of blood on our hands in this country but do we really want to give yet more superpower status to the butchers of Tibet?
That's why manufacturing should be promoted in other countries. If a foxcon factory can be built in Brazil why not one in Mexico?
Where did I say I hate Apple? Because I'm critical of their boasting does not equate hatred. I do not think Apple set out to hurt other industries.
I'm not in the "Apple should bring manufacturing here" boat, we've transitioned to a service economy.
Ok, you're siding with the haters by taking a blindingly anti-Apple view:"how many jobs has Apple killed?"
How many jobs have computers killed? How many jobs did John Deere kill? Steam engines?
When a technological revolution happens, like when the Japanese figured out how to make more reasonable cars for new energy conditions and the Americans did not, there are displacements. But then the Japanese build factories in the US and then begin to "boast," as you put it, about how many jobs they've created in rural Tennessee or wherever. Do you think anyone but Toyota will talk about that, take their side?
If the New York Times now finds it can sell more eyeballs by attacking Apple, who is going to investigate the massive effect Apple is having on the US economy?
They are going to have to stick up for themselves, just like Toyota did.
But you took an insanely anti-evolutionary position, just to make a point that their self-defense is unseemly to you.
Actually, I agree that they should have left out the part about the delivery jobs. Too satirizable.
Edit: By the way, what Apple represents is that the US is an invention, engineering and design economy, not a service economy. It is no accident that Jonathon Ive and all those engineers from around the world are in Silicon Valley. It is the world center for applied mind amplification. For now. Not enough people realize it, especially Americans, who are stuck in a weird, insecure self-hatred based on a failure to adapt to global, post-national conditions. Failure to evolve. Apple is one of the entities that gets it, because they are on the leading edge of this evolution, which is why their story is so interesting. They are just geting started in creating a new industry that will have more "mindshare" than any previous industry in history. It is going to incur a lot of retrograde fear and loathing among the insecure.
Refusal to evolve is the number one American pathology right now, among certain groups.
Cf. the butchers of North America. Perhaps you've heard there were people in the way of Manifest Destiny.
And don't let's forget Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden.
El Salvador, Brazil, Argentina, Nicaragua, Chile, Grenada, Cuba (attempted), also Iraq, etc. - yes.
Sad to say Hiroshima and Nagasaki - given the context, time, and probable casualty figures for an invasion of mainland Japan 1946-48 - the lesser choice of two evils that may have had no alternative.
But if the US is the butcher of the Americas then China is surely the butcher of east Asia (just ask the Tibetans, Vietnamese, the Disappeared of Tiananmen, etc.). And they Do want to deliver the west a death of a thousand cuts.
You apparently don't know jack about slavery. Slaves didn't organize to "change" things. Slaves had to organize to escape because slavery was the law of the land so there was no way TO change anything. The change in laws was left to white abolitionists and the few freed persons around. Also, having the choice between low paying jobs is a hell of a lot different than having ZERO choice and having members of your family sold off to other areas of the country. And let's not forget rape and forced breeding. Also, as far as I know, it is not illegal for these Chinese workers to learn to read or go in public without foxconn's permission.
But it IS highly illegal for them to write the things that count - matter of fact that treasonous offense can get you put to work in a prison too. Or - haha -are you really that ignorant that you believe the Chinese have changed THAT much since the Cultural Revolution? Have you ever even been there, worked there? Tell you what, go live and work in a Chinese factory, or better yet, a Chinese prison factory for ten years (ha! you want to talk about being "sold off") - then if you survive the beatings and torture you come on back minus your liver and sanity and lecture me on your western definitions of "slavery". Or go try and have this very discussion on in a Chinese Internet chat room (or even better - write a letter to the editor of the People's Daily), and see how you like them apples. If you're still not convinced that slavery exists in "free market 'wage''based economies may I suggest you take a little excursion to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia so that you may witness it in action. Talk to a Bengali agricultural worker or an Indonesian maid and you might just learn that freedom of choice to work for s*it or feces isn't a "choice" at all. Come back when you've seen a bit more of the real ways of the world, son.
El Salvador, Brazil, Argentina, Nicaragua, Chile, Grenada, Cuba (attempted), also Iraq, etc. - yes.
Sad to say Hiroshima and Nagasaki - given the context, time, and probable casualty figures for an invasion of mainland Japan 1946-48 - the lesser choice of two evils that may have had no alternative.
But if the US is the butcher of the Americas then China is surely the butcher of east Asia (just ask the Tibetans, Vietnamese, the Disappeared of Tiananmen, etc.). And they Do want to deliver the west a death of a thousand cuts.
Speaking of Viet Nam, and add Laos and Cambodia, the US has a lot of carpet bombing and biocide with Agent Orange to live down.
The point should be that calling the nation you want to work with a butcher is no way to open understanding and improvement of civilized relations.
I said the number one American pathology right now is the refusal to evolve. You make me realize that the refusal is based on an inability to recognize progress. You would rather froth away in what you probably think of as "realism" than see working with the Chinese as mutually beneficial for both nations to rise above their sorry past and present "butchery."
Apple would get nowhere with your attitude. China is helping the US and Apple is helping China. Beginning of a long story.
Speaking of Viet Nam, and add Laos and Cambodia, the US has a lot of carpet bombing and biocide with Agent Orange to live down.
The point should be that calling the nation you want to work with a butcher is no way to open understanding and improvement of civilized relations.
I said the number one American pathology right now is the refusal to evolve. You make me realize that the refusal is based on an inability to recognize progress. You would rather froth away in what you probably think of as "realism" than see working with the Chinese as mutually beneficial for both nations to rise above their sorry past and present "butchery."
Apple would get nowhere with your attitude. China is helping the US and Apple is helping China. Beginning of a long story.
If you think Apple or any other western multinational is dictating sweeping terms to the CPC on human rights etc., well son, you've hopped the Happy Plane to LaLa Land. This could easily be put to the test. Apple releases a Free Tibet iPod and within hours are banned from China. In China-western relations business is business and politics is politics and ne'er the twain shall meet.
Hmmmm, let's see...."Apple getting somewhere" VS. the Hanification (read" BUTCHERING) of TIBET, lack of basic human rights, total Party control over the media and freedom of speech, one of the highest execution rates in the world, refusal to admit Tiananmen ever really happened, the gutting of American manufacturing, the illegal status of Chinese unions, a massive military buildup set to challenge NATO down the road, arguably the worst environmental record on the planet, torture,...... yeah that's a real tough choice for me and a wonderful example of "Han" rationalization from you. Collect your CPC bonus recently?
And seeing as you mentioned Cambodia let's not forget China's propping up of the Khmer Rouge genocide machine (only 2 million dead there), its continued propping up of wonderful little bastions of joy like North Korea, its attack on the UN Forces in Korea (this after the west had saved its a** from Japan just five years prior)... its 'ask-no-questions-human-rights-be-damned economic policies in Africa, Burma, etc., and just for fun its 1979 invasion of Vietnam (in which China was promptly handed its a*s on a platter by the Vietnamese) and if you want to talk about things to "live down" how about the Cultural Revolution" (talk about a people in full-on Lemming Mode!) or Mao's Famine (43 million dead). Oh dear, seems you put your foot in your mouth on that one.
Comments
Japan, Korea etc are not a military threat. China is huge and can produce everything faster and without any outside resources unlike the US which can't even protect their borders from illegal immigrants let alone agree any sort of coherent foreign policy. China is not encumbered by any such bureaucratic red tape and could become the premminet world power within the next decade.
If you don't find that a bit disconcerting then you are totally in denial. Loss of high tech manufacturing in the US, whenever it began, is a very dangerous situation.
You said it. We've got our share of blood on our hands in this country but do we really want to give yet more superpower status to the butchers of Tibet?
If you don't find that a bit disconcerting then you are totally in denial. Loss of high tech manufacturing in the US, whenever it began, is a very dangerous situation.
Nah, it's more about that I don't live in Orange County.
Actually, I know guy in L.A., in Echo Park, who would agree with you. Ya gotta think big and think progressive. Business interdependence will do more to prevent war than all the nationalist paranoia you can muster up. The Chinese can be liberalized, humanized, cooperatized. Even Americans can learn to live as citizens of the world—maybe.
Seriously, though, there is a wild card in the deck. The most ubiquitous piece of technology ever has yet to appear, yet to come out of Apple. It may well be manufactured here, because the technology is new enough that the production might as well be done here as anywhere. I am referring to wearable screens, as in glasses. To repeat, it will be huger than anything yet to appear.
Think big.
You said it. We've got our share of blood on our hands in this country but do we really want to give yet more superpower status to the butchers of Tibet?
Cf. the butchers of North America. Perhaps you've heard there were people in the way of Manifest Destiny.
And don't let's forget Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden.
Nah, it's more about that I don't live in Orange County.
Actually, I know guy in L.A., in Echo Park, who would agree with you. Ya gotta think big and think progressive. Business interdependence will do more to prevent war than all the nationalist paranoia you can muster up. The Chinese can be liberalized, humanized, cooperatized. Even Americans can learn to live as citizens of the world?maybe.
Beat those swords to ploughshares. Peace and love my brother.
Ever wonder why it has never worked out in all of history.
Because that just isn't the way the animal kingdom works.
Beat those swords to ploughshares. Peace and love my brother.
Ever wonder why it has never worked out in all of history.
Because that just isn't the way the animal kingdom works.
Aha, you've fallen into my hands.
As T.H. Huxley said about the Rev. what's-his-name in the debate over Darwin. Only he said "God hath delivered him into my hands." But I don't think God belongs in this context, but in another, the following.
War on an organized scale belongs to relatively recent humans, namely the Indo-Europeans from the central Asian steppes. Marija Gimbutas and others have demonstrated that there were several thousand years of civilization in the Mediterranean and the river valleys of Europe where weapon making for the purpose of murder—war—was unknown. Thousands of years of highly evolved village and town life were lived on a cooperative, non-dominative basis.
The Indo-Europeans first hunted the horse, then became the first to tame and ride them. They used this new "skill" as a raiding technique on the settled communities of Old Europe—Gimbutas's term for the previous, forgotten civilization. Being nomadic, they invented the wheel to haul their goods, and then came up with the war chariot. They were unstoppable, and they took over from India to Iran to Anatolia, Greece, all of Europe including Britain, as Celts and Anglo-Saxons.
We still live under their warlike mandate. It did not exist before as an organized ethos. Cooperation did.
Further reading: any of Gimbutas's books, Anthony's Horse, Wheel and Language, Riane Eisler's The Chalice and the Blade (a bit sappy but true), James Melaart Earliest Civilizations of the Near East.
Not a well-known line of thought, in fact suppressed by male-dominant mythology in both archeology and anthropology. Check it out, if you dare to risk your presuppositions.
Humans are wired for cooperation and empathy. Ever traveled and met strangers?
I almost forgot the God part. It was the I-Es who invented the remote mountain-storm-war patriarch-god to support their own patriarchal ways. Abraham got infected with this idea when he was living near the Mitanni and the Hittites. See Merlin Stone, The Paradise Papers/When God Was a Woman—"Was Yahweh Indo-European?" or something like that.
Humans are wired for cooperation and empathy.
So long as their bellies are full and you don't step on their toes.
Uh, no not really. Slaves got a roof over their heads and had very little else to show for their 14 hours a day at the end of a month. They were beaten or even killed if they tried to organize other slaves to change things. The fact that unions are basically illegal in China - and that people are jailed, beaten and also killed for trying to press for worker's rights there - levels your comparison of Chinese labor with that of unionized workers in the west (who are (*were*) often far from unskilled). The only difference is that in China they're "free" to quit and go take another job under the exact same conditions and with the exact same lack of protection. You need to factor in poverty and what that can make people do to put food in their bellies - crazy things like travel for days in the hope of getting picked to work in a dead-end factory job so they too can get a roof over their heads, also without much more to show for it at the end of the month.
You apparently don't know jack about slavery. Slaves didn't organize to "change" things. Slaves had to organize to escape because slavery was the law of the land so there was no way TO change anything. The change in laws was left to white abolitionists and the few freed persons around. Also, having the choice between low paying jobs is a hell of a lot different than having ZERO choice and having members of your family sold off to other areas of the country. And let's not forget rape and forced breeding. Also, as far as I know, it is not illegal for these Chinese workers to learn to read or go in public without foxconn's permission.
So long as their bellies are full and you don't step on their toes.
True. The I-Es developed their culture under deprivation on the steppes. We inherited that mind-set, but it's only a mind-set, not wiring.
Business interdependence will do more to prevent war than all the nationalist paranoia you can muster up.
The UK was Germany's biggest export market when WWI broke out.
The US has never known how to make microelectronics, other than chip fabrication. All mass manufacture of consumer electroncs went to Japan, Korea, China, Singapore, etc. decades ago.
The US never made VCRs, cameras of any quality, video cameras, solid state radios or televisions, most computers and computer parts, LCD screens, and so on. There is no reservoir of expertise here, maybe the most important factor besides parts proximity when anyone contemplates opening a plant.
Steve Jobs could have been a bit misleading when he said "those jobs aren't coming back." They were never in the US to begin with! Yes, Apple manufactured here when the electronics were an order of magnitude less fine, but practically all the large-scale production experience of micromanufacturing is in Asia. Even robot design and manufacturing, I would imagine?correct me if I'm wrong on that.
You anti-union, anti-government memeopaths are missing the point by miles, thousands of miles.
Silicon Valley is where brilliant things are designed and engineered. THIS reservoir of expertise must be protected, appreciated, encouraged, insead of hated. (And hated for the stupidest possible reasons?looking at you dasanman69 and myapplelove).
Is there another phone maker based in the US for you to appreciate? Or computer maker? Or large-scale innovator? No there is not.
Unbelieveable the treachery in this thread, and duplicity. Bitching at Apple because they don't manufacture here. NOBODY can DO the micromanufacuring here. In all the world, only Apple is doing an honest job of ORIGINATING and DESIGNING the products here to be manufactured where they should be, where the expertise is, elsewhere. And that is creating jobs, both here and aound the world. And they're just getting started. A whole lot of money that has been going to Asia is now going to start coming back. They are going to outgrow their new headquarters in five years, just watch.
Better figure out how to meet the Chinese halfway and stop pretending the US is king of the world. We all have our talents. This is what Apple has built its business on, working with people around the world. It's one of their core values, expertly developed by Tim Cook, obviously.
I wish you guys would enlarge your horizons. Your narrow focus, antievolutionary as it is, is what's killing political economics in this country.
Edit: nicely anticipated by DominoXML above. And jragosta and slurpy, as usual, doing yeoman anti-FUD work.
Where did I say I hate Apple? Because I'm critical of their boasting does not equate hatred. I do not think Apple set out to hurt other industries.
I'm not in the "Apple should bring manufacturing here" boat, we've transitioned to a service economy.
You said it. We've got our share of blood on our hands in this country but do we really want to give yet more superpower status to the butchers of Tibet?
That's why manufacturing should be promoted in other countries. If a foxcon factory can be built in Brazil why not one in Mexico?
That's why manufacturing should be promoted in other countries. If a foxcon factory can be built in Brazil why not one in Mexico?
There are plenty of reasons. Here's one...
There are plenty of reasons. Here's one...
Thanks for the link. The drug trafficking is destroying that country.
Where did I say I hate Apple? Because I'm critical of their boasting does not equate hatred. I do not think Apple set out to hurt other industries.
I'm not in the "Apple should bring manufacturing here" boat, we've transitioned to a service economy.
Ok, you're siding with the haters by taking a blindingly anti-Apple view:"how many jobs has Apple killed?"
How many jobs have computers killed? How many jobs did John Deere kill? Steam engines?
When a technological revolution happens, like when the Japanese figured out how to make more reasonable cars for new energy conditions and the Americans did not, there are displacements. But then the Japanese build factories in the US and then begin to "boast," as you put it, about how many jobs they've created in rural Tennessee or wherever. Do you think anyone but Toyota will talk about that, take their side?
If the New York Times now finds it can sell more eyeballs by attacking Apple, who is going to investigate the massive effect Apple is having on the US economy?
They are going to have to stick up for themselves, just like Toyota did.
But you took an insanely anti-evolutionary position, just to make a point that their self-defense is unseemly to you.
Actually, I agree that they should have left out the part about the delivery jobs. Too satirizable.
Edit: By the way, what Apple represents is that the US is an invention, engineering and design economy, not a service economy. It is no accident that Jonathon Ive and all those engineers from around the world are in Silicon Valley. It is the world center for applied mind amplification. For now. Not enough people realize it, especially Americans, who are stuck in a weird, insecure self-hatred based on a failure to adapt to global, post-national conditions. Failure to evolve. Apple is one of the entities that gets it, because they are on the leading edge of this evolution, which is why their story is so interesting. They are just geting started in creating a new industry that will have more "mindshare" than any previous industry in history. It is going to incur a lot of retrograde fear and loathing among the insecure.
Refusal to evolve is the number one American pathology right now, among certain groups.
Cf. the butchers of North America. Perhaps you've heard there were people in the way of Manifest Destiny.
And don't let's forget Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden.
El Salvador, Brazil, Argentina, Nicaragua, Chile, Grenada, Cuba (attempted), also Iraq, etc. - yes.
Sad to say Hiroshima and Nagasaki - given the context, time, and probable casualty figures for an invasion of mainland Japan 1946-48 - the lesser choice of two evils that may have had no alternative.
But if the US is the butcher of the Americas then China is surely the butcher of east Asia (just ask the Tibetans, Vietnamese, the Disappeared of Tiananmen, etc.). And they Do want to deliver the west a death of a thousand cuts.
You apparently don't know jack about slavery. Slaves didn't organize to "change" things. Slaves had to organize to escape because slavery was the law of the land so there was no way TO change anything. The change in laws was left to white abolitionists and the few freed persons around. Also, having the choice between low paying jobs is a hell of a lot different than having ZERO choice and having members of your family sold off to other areas of the country. And let's not forget rape and forced breeding. Also, as far as I know, it is not illegal for these Chinese workers to learn to read or go in public without foxconn's permission.
But it IS highly illegal for them to write the things that count - matter of fact that treasonous offense can get you put to work in a prison too. Or - haha -are you really that ignorant that you believe the Chinese have changed THAT much since the Cultural Revolution? Have you ever even been there, worked there? Tell you what, go live and work in a Chinese factory, or better yet, a Chinese prison factory for ten years (ha! you want to talk about being "sold off") - then if you survive the beatings and torture you come on back minus your liver and sanity and lecture me on your western definitions of "slavery". Or go try and have this very discussion on in a Chinese Internet chat room (or even better - write a letter to the editor of the People's Daily), and see how you like them apples. If you're still not convinced that slavery exists in "free market 'wage''based economies may I suggest you take a little excursion to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia so that you may witness it in action. Talk to a Bengali agricultural worker or an Indonesian maid and you might just learn that freedom of choice to work for s*it or feces isn't a "choice" at all. Come back when you've seen a bit more of the real ways of the world, son.
There are plenty of reasons. Here's one...
Das has a point but so does Solipsism - Brazil and other countries not China maybe yes; Mexico these days probably not the best choice.
El Salvador, Brazil, Argentina, Nicaragua, Chile, Grenada, Cuba (attempted), also Iraq, etc. - yes.
Sad to say Hiroshima and Nagasaki - given the context, time, and probable casualty figures for an invasion of mainland Japan 1946-48 - the lesser choice of two evils that may have had no alternative.
But if the US is the butcher of the Americas then China is surely the butcher of east Asia (just ask the Tibetans, Vietnamese, the Disappeared of Tiananmen, etc.). And they Do want to deliver the west a death of a thousand cuts.
Speaking of Viet Nam, and add Laos and Cambodia, the US has a lot of carpet bombing and biocide with Agent Orange to live down.
The point should be that calling the nation you want to work with a butcher is no way to open understanding and improvement of civilized relations.
I said the number one American pathology right now is the refusal to evolve. You make me realize that the refusal is based on an inability to recognize progress. You would rather froth away in what you probably think of as "realism" than see working with the Chinese as mutually beneficial for both nations to rise above their sorry past and present "butchery."
Apple would get nowhere with your attitude. China is helping the US and Apple is helping China. Beginning of a long story.
Private company can do what it wants. It owes America the country nothing. Sorry but it's true.
It owes it's safety & security to the US, it owes it's success to the fact there are people here wealthy enough to buy their products.
Just ask IBM, your mentality of "we don't need you but you need us" nearly cost them their company.
Speaking of Viet Nam, and add Laos and Cambodia, the US has a lot of carpet bombing and biocide with Agent Orange to live down.
The point should be that calling the nation you want to work with a butcher is no way to open understanding and improvement of civilized relations.
I said the number one American pathology right now is the refusal to evolve. You make me realize that the refusal is based on an inability to recognize progress. You would rather froth away in what you probably think of as "realism" than see working with the Chinese as mutually beneficial for both nations to rise above their sorry past and present "butchery."
Apple would get nowhere with your attitude. China is helping the US and Apple is helping China. Beginning of a long story.
If you think Apple or any other western multinational is dictating sweeping terms to the CPC on human rights etc., well son, you've hopped the Happy Plane to LaLa Land. This could easily be put to the test. Apple releases a Free Tibet iPod and within hours are banned from China. In China-western relations business is business and politics is politics and ne'er the twain shall meet.
Hmmmm, let's see...."Apple getting somewhere" VS. the Hanification (read" BUTCHERING) of TIBET, lack of basic human rights, total Party control over the media and freedom of speech, one of the highest execution rates in the world, refusal to admit Tiananmen ever really happened, the gutting of American manufacturing, the illegal status of Chinese unions, a massive military buildup set to challenge NATO down the road, arguably the worst environmental record on the planet, torture,...... yeah that's a real tough choice for me
And seeing as you mentioned Cambodia let's not forget China's propping up of the Khmer Rouge genocide machine (only 2 million dead there), its continued propping up of wonderful little bastions of joy like North Korea, its attack on the UN Forces in Korea (this after the west had saved its a** from Japan just five years prior)... its 'ask-no-questions-human-rights-be-damned economic policies in Africa, Burma, etc., and just for fun its 1979 invasion of Vietnam (in which China was promptly handed its a*s on a platter by the Vietnamese) and if you want to talk about things to "live down" how about the Cultural Revolution" (talk about a people in full-on Lemming Mode!) or Mao's Famine (43 million dead). Oh dear, seems you put your foot in your mouth on that one.