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  • tontontonton Posts: 14,063member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    Because special interests have successfully lobbied grab other people's money (by force) to support their investments. We have the same thing happening these days with so-called green energy players. Same song, different singers.



    So do you support or oppose our government's involvement in the Keystone XL oil pipeline? Put your money where your mouth is and admit it's not a good idea.
  • frank777frank777 Posts: 5,701member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    Honestly, the idea to give it back to the private sector (as a budget cut) is far better than the status quo. Conservative, my ass.



    Have a Dem submit a bill outlawing government subsidies to business. Plenty of conservatives will join the fight.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    Do you support or oppose our government's involvement in the Keystone XL oil pipeline?



    I support the government involvement inasmuch as it amounts to public oversight and regulation.



    I would not support one dime of Canadian or American government money going toward the project.
  • brbr Posts: 8,253member
    He doesn't like the government involvement that is requiring better environmental impact surveys and adjustments to not fuck up the surrounding environment. That's for sure. He conveniently doesn't believe in the science of global climate change and has no problem raping the Earth for short-term profit.
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    So do you support or oppose our government's involvement in the Keystone XL oil pipeline? Put your money where your mouth is and admit it's not a good idea.



    I oppose the government's involvement in it, either subsidizing or blocking it. If it can be achieved privately, that's fine with me. The body of my posts here should have answered that question before you even asked it.
  • tontontonton Posts: 14,063member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


    Have a Dem submit a bill outlawing government subsidies to business. Plenty of conservatives will join the fight.







    I support the government involvement inasmuch as it amounts to public oversight and regulation.



    I would not support one dime of Canadian or American government money going toward the project.



    Does the current proposal include land subsidy? Infrastructure? If so, how can you support it?



    Seriously, I really don't know. I'm assuming our investment is part of the proposal.
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    Does the current proposal include land subsidy? Infrastructure? If so, how can you support it?



    Seriously, I really don't know. I'm assuming our investment is part of the proposal.



    Who is "our"?
  • tontontonton Posts: 14,063member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    Who is "our"?



    The country of which I am a citizen in legal and political good standing. The country where my daughter will study high school and presumably university. The country I paid taxes to directly until I was 25 years old, and indirectly through treaties. The country where my parents have been paying taxes for half a century. My country.
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    The country of which I am a citizen in legal and political good standing. The country of which I am a citizen in legal and political good standing. The country where my daughter will study high school and presumably university. The country I paid taxes to directly until I was 25 years old, and indirectly through treaties. The country where my parents have been paying taxes for half a century. My country.



    Trying to dodge again huh?



    But it's not your money. You regularly fail to see this. There is no "we" that includes you in any equation that involves US government spending. We don't have your money in that pot. You no longer pay taxes. You don't credit for your parent's taxes. You stopped paying taxes in the US a while ago it seems. Stop trying to insinuate yourself into "we" and "our" when it comes to US government spending.
  • tontontonton Posts: 14,063member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    Trying to dodge again huh?



    But it's not your money. You regularly fail to see this. There is no "we" that includes you in any equation that involves US government spending. We don't have your money in that pot.



    You're doing your best to say I'm not an American. That's a despicable and dishonest thing for you to do. You apparently don't understand the concept of the right of citizenship vs. residency.



    Either that or you're trying to obfuscate the fact that as a citizen of the United States of America, I have every right to use my voice and my vote to help decide what MY country should be doing with OUR resources.



    Try to tell a poor person they don't have a say because they don't pay income tax.
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    You're doing your best to say I'm not an American. That's a despicable and dishonest thing for you to do.



    Not at all. I'm saying you don't pay US taxes and your "we" and "our" statements pertain to how US tax money should be spent. But this tax money doesn't include any of your money.



    What is despicable and dishonest is for you to include yourself in "we" and "our" as it pertains to US tax money being spent when you don't pay US taxes.
  • frank777frank777 Posts: 5,701member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    Does the current proposal include land subsidy? Infrastructure? If so, how can you support it?



    Seriously, I really don't know. I'm assuming our investment is part of the proposal.



    As far as I know, the Keystone interests are paying farmers and other landholders for the right to pass through their land. I don't know what the arrangements are for Crown lands (as we call them here) but I assume no cash payments are being made to the federal government, simply because I haven't heard of any. (The oil itself will no doubt be taxed in the South, and Canadian governments will already have gotten their royalty.)



    I would think that if the government was actually funding this, environmentalists would be all over that.

    (Assuming they understand America's current political climate, and don't permanently live in a fantasy world.)
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    You apparently don't understand the concept of the right of citizenship vs. residency.



    I understand it just fine. I also understand that you don't pay US taxes and prattle on endlessly about how money collected from other people should spent or that said taxes should be increased on other people while you live comfortably in what amounts to a tax haven relatively speaking.



    There's a word for that: Hypocrisy.
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    Try to tell a poor person they don't have a say because they don't pay income tax.



    At least a poor person residing in the US pays some taxes...sales...property...SS, et al.



    On this point you are a hypocrite plain and simple.
  • tontontonton Posts: 14,063member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    At least a poor person residing in the US pays some taxes...sales...property...SS, et al.



    On this point you are a hypocrite plain and simple.



    I directly paid taxes in the USA in 2011 and 2012.



    Regardless, as a citizen, the money is as much mine as it is yours.



    On this point, you're selfish, plain and simple.
  • brbr Posts: 8,253member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    I directly paid taxes in the USA in 2011 and 2012.



    Regardless, as a citizen, the money is as much mine as it is yours.



    On this point, you're selfish, plain and simple.



    It is despicable that he is attempting to undermine your value and voice as a citizen. It's also completely obtuse to ignore those treaties you mentioned. Furthermore, I appreciate that while you are abroad, you paint Americans in a better light--we aren't all selfish mean-spirited assholes.
  • frank777frank777 Posts: 5,701member
    That's funny, coming from one of the most angry and mean-spirited persons on the board.
  • tontontonton Posts: 14,063member
    I really feel sorry for his wife. I can only imagine how she feels to have strictly separate accounts and no voice in family financial matters that involve his own hard earned income (according to his logic regarding my right to discuss the financial matters of my country).



    Doesn't matter, I guess, because his scripture actually says that she has no business in those matters anyway and that it is her duty to raise children and maintain the home.



    Kind of like a maid you get to fuck and who bears your children for you. Even better since you don't have to pay her.



    I'm sure BR endorses this post.
  • brbr Posts: 8,253member
    But remember we're not allowed to hold people to the standards they claim to hold themselves to if we don't believe in those standards. Or something. The mental gymnastics and delusion in that line of illogic are a bit above my pay grade.
  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,255member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    You're doing your best to say I'm not an American. That's a despicable and dishonest thing for you to do. You apparently don't understand the concept of the right of citizenship vs. residency.



    You've never explained why you are an expatriate. You are the one being dishonest. You've lived in Hong Kong aka the 1% paradise of China where they check your papers and make sure that dirty 99% never gets past the fences and gates for a good portion of your adult life in a manner not required of some job and clearly you aren't working there as a servant. You've clearly adopted it as your home having married there twice and raising your daughter there.



    Quote:

    Either that or you're trying to obfuscate the fact that as a citizen of the United States of America, I have every right to use my voice and my vote to help decide what MY country should be doing with OUR resources.



    You are a citizen of the U.S. because you were born here. Your actions and choices who you have chosen somewhere else. You aren't living in Hong Kong because your job that you have held there during your adult life requires it. You are there and remain there by choice. Are you a permanent resident of Hong Kong? You've been there more than seven years correct?



    Quote:

    Try to tell a poor person they don't have a say because they don't pay income tax.



    I'll absolutely say that. I've stated repeatedly that a social contract isn't a contract when one person is exempt from the contract. A contract binds all parties. You exempt certain parties just like you exempt yourself from all manner of actions. It's sort of your pattern.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    Not at all. I'm saying you don't pay US taxes and your "we" and "our" statements pertain to how US tax money should be spent. But this tax money doesn't include any of your money.



    What is despicable and dishonest is for you to include yourself in "we" and "our" as it pertains to US tax money being spent when you don't pay US taxes.



    He probably does pay some taxes but if he gets to credit or exclude the taxes he pays abroad then that means he certainly has given what they didn't care to take rather than what is expected of everyone here.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    I directly paid taxes in the USA in 2011 and 2012.



    Regardless, as a citizen, the money is as much mine as it is yours.



    On this point, you're selfish, plain and simple.



    The point should be that citizenship by itself doesn't entitle anyone to demand the labors of another. It is citizenship, we are discussing, not slavery.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    It is despicable that he is attempting to undermine your value and voice as a citizen. It's also completely obtuse to ignore those treaties you mentioned. Furthermore, I appreciate that while you are abroad, you paint Americans in a better light--we aren't all selfish mean-spirited assholes.



    No one said all Americans are that BR, just you.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


    That's funny, coming from one of the most angry and mean-spirited persons on the board.



    Exactly and as a Canadian you've correctly noted which is the Ugly American in our midst.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    I really feel sorry for his wife. I can only imagine how she feels to have strictly separate accounts and no voice in family financial matters that involve his own hard earned income (according to his logic regarding my right to discuss the financial matters of my country).



    Doesn't matter, I guess, because his scripture actually says that she has no business in those matters anyway and that it is her duty to raise children and maintain the home.



    Kind of like a maid you get to fuck and who bears your children for you. Even better since you don't have to pay her.



    I'm sure BR endorses this post.



    Yes, let's dig into the history of China with regard to women. I'm sure you'd prefer to only focus on the Special Administrative Regions but the reality is that woman are treated horribly in China. Had any of your neighbors bury their newborn girls in the garden so they can get that special boy under the one child rule Tonton? I'm sure BR endorses such actions so that filthy humans don't overrun the planet. We don't know what BR endorses with regard to actions for his wife because no one will have him. It's sort of funny how you claim others would mistreat their wives when and wink and nod at someone who has never had anyone sign on to be his partner. The smartest way to avoid being abused by a partner is to never partner with them in the first place and BR with his vitriol and anger will probably be alone for a long time.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    But remember we're not allowed to hold people to the standards they claim to hold themselves to if we don't believe in those standards. Or something. The mental gymnastics and delusion in that line of illogic are a bit above my pay grade.



    That is the reality. If you show contempt for a standard, you can't credibly claim to hold someone else to it. Those nice religious figures throughout history, you have contempt for them and their work. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, and Gandhi, these sorts of folks were idiots and shouldn't be allowed to participate in public discourse per your reasoning. However we can understand why you don't want them involved because their non-violent enlightenment makes your bloody revolution to save all the 12 year old girls and their vaginas from themselves look embarrassing.
  • mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    I directly paid taxes in the USA in 2011 and 2012.



    Well then I'm wrong*. You'll forgive me since when I asked you a direct question on this point previously you evaded it to the point where the only conclusion one could arrive at was that you were not paying US taxes and were trying to pretend you were by taking credit for other people paying US taxes.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    Regardless, as a citizen, the money is as much mine as it is yours.



    I disagree.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    On this point, you're selfish, plain and simple.



    Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that I think someone who isn't paying into the pool is a hypocrite when prattling on how about that money should be spent, calling it "we" and "ours" and calling for higher taxes that he or she won't have to pay.





    *I'm curious how much. Given your previous attempts to claim other taxpayer's payments as your own, I'll bet almost nothing or, as trumptman noted, whatever you paid got credited back to you in a transaction that effectively means you paid nothing (or almost nothing).
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