Nokia calls Apple nano-sim pledge 'attempt to devalue' competitors' IP

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Comments

  • therbotherbo Posts: 70member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Patranus View Post


    No.

    The way for Apple to do this is to just get ride of the sim regardless of what "the market" says.

    When Apple does it, others will follow.



    Remember when everyone said Apple was stupid for getting rid of the floppy drive and including USB.



    Remember when everyone said Apple was being stupid for getting rid of optical drives.



    Remember when everyone said Apple was being stupid for releasing the iPad.



    Apple should "just do it". Who cares what their competitors say. They will sell a shit ton of iPhones and have a defacto standard others will follow.



    No reason for Apple to halt their progress because their competitors are too stubborn.



    No, Apple can't just get rid of the SIM, because the law in certain countries REQUIRES it.



    Why do you think Apple has to submit it to the ETSI? They have to make it a standard if they want to implement it in Europe.
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Therbo View Post


    Do you even know what's stored on a SIM? I don't think a network wants their auth keys printed in clear text.



    In EU, current law requires that phones have a SIM card. A vSIM is therefore illegal.



    I'm quite familiar. Here, I'll break it down for you.



    First of all, we can get rid of the address book and messages storage. It's a pointless feature for the future of smartphones.



    (Warning: These next things are really tricky but they do require looking at how the technology works, not at the little piece of plastic)



    Second, we have the IMSI. This essentially identifies the carrier and its country. This is up to 15 digits but could be shorter if using a full alpha-numeric. It's not unlike the way the Mac. However, inputting this into the phone could be reduced even more by putting most of the information onto the mobile baseband. This not only adds much needed security now afforded by the easily cloned SIM cards but reduces the amount of data the user would need to input with a vSIM.



    Also, things like the OSEN, SMSC, SPN, SDN are all basic information that are coded to the carrier and country so this simple data can be part of the mobile baseband database, thus not needing to reside on a physical card.



    Next we have the ICCID. This is the number you find engraved into your SIM card. It's not hidden. It can't be. It's up to 19 digits long. This would have to be inputted manually by the customer. That said, aspects of it like the country code and issuer are redundant to some parts of the IMSI as far as I can tell. Still, it's only 19 digits added once to the mobile baseband's storage and acts as the SIM's social security/tax ID number.



    Finally we have the authentication key. This is unfortunately stored on physical SIMs and is passed over when SIMs are cloned. This is major issue that goes unnoticed. Again, this key could be stored on the mobile baseband so that is can authenticate with the network with added security. The vSIM would contain its own passcode that will be authenticated by the carrier against the ICCID and other data.



    This system could even be smart enough to know that when you leave one country's network and enter another it would ask you if you wish to switch vSIMs. However, because this is a low-level, very secure system pushing this data to the OS layer would not be wise. The best move is to have the user restart the device in order to choose a new vSIM.



    Since we're just now talking about the 4th generation of SIM card which probably wouldn't show up until 2013 what I propose is not a solution that I expect to happen overnight. I figure it's a good decade away but the move for more value and security in our communication devices means the physical SIM card will eventually go away. There will be opposition, but it will be from carriers because of control, not people who say they have to have a physical SIM card the way people say they have to have an ODD in case they need to reinstall an program.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


    That might work in North America but European and Asian consumers are very much in favour of SIM cards. If you live near the border of several countries, go travelling a lot or live in a country with a competitive GSM market then physical SIM cards are a massive boon.



    1) Incorporating vSIM doesn't mean the physical SIM would go away immediately. In fact, the only way this would work would be to have a couple generations of both system in place.



    2) I'm in favour of the SIM. A vSIM is still a SIM. It offers all the same useful features except it adds more security and convenience.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Patranus View Post


    No.

    The way for Apple to do this is to just get ride of the sim regardless of what "the market" says.

    When Apple does it, others will follow.



    Remember when everyone said Apple was stupid for getting rid of the floppy drive and including USB.



    Remember when everyone said Apple was being stupid for getting rid of optical drives.



    Remember when everyone said Apple was being stupid for releasing the iPad.



    Apple should "just do it". Who cares what their competitors say. They will sell a shit ton of iPhones and have a defacto standard others will follow.



    No reason for Apple to halt their progress because their competitors are too stubborn.



    But Apple wasn't putting their Macs on the floppy drive makers's networks. It's a very different situation.
  • slcossioslcossio Posts: 13member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


    That might work in North America but European and Asian consumers are very much in favour of SIM cards. If you live near the border of several countries, go travelling a lot or live in a country with a competitive GSM market then physical SIM cards are a massive boon.



    But wouldn't it also be an advantage to be able to set-up several SIM cards from within your phone? Let's say you had already set up a SIM card with a company in your country, then you travel to another country, and you are able to buy a vSIM that you just configure to your phone. You use it while you are there, and when you travel back home, you just enter System Preferences, vSIM, and then choose the one you had already activated before.



    This way you wouldn't need to keep all your mini/micro/nano SIM cards in a small box and trying to figure which one belongs to which country. This would also work for people living in bordering cities (like myself). Sometimes you don't plan on crossing the border and the idea just comes up, this way one would never forget to carry another SIM card, as all of them would already be on the phone.
  • therbotherbo Posts: 70member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by slcossio View Post


    But wouldn't it also be an advantage to be able to set-up several SIM cards from within your phone? Let's say you had already set up a SIM card with a company in your country, then you travel to another country, and you are able to buy a vSIM that you just configure to your phone. You use it while you are there, and when you travel back home, you just enter System Preferences, vSIM, and then choose the one you had already activated before.



    This way you wouldn't need to keep all your mini/micro/nano SIM cards in a small box and trying to figure which one belongs to which country. This would also work for people living in bordering cities (like myself). Sometimes you don't plan on crossing the border and the idea just comes up, this way one would never forget to carry another SIM card, as all of them would already be on the phone.



    SIMs are usually free and available from anywhere you want.



    For short term roaming in Europe; I dont bother with a local SIM, cheaper to roam.
  • adamcadamc Posts: 489member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post


    In other words, Apple wishes to replace Nokia's SIM technology with a free one?

    What a travesty that would be.



    The people at nokia failed to innovate to compete so they think they can profit from patents, very pathetic.
  • flabberflabber Posts: 87member
    The smaller size is one thing, but the technology used in them also plays a part imho… the Micro-SIM already had some advantages over the normal SIM after all. If Apple's SIM is the largest of the 3 Nano-SIM's but also implements the best/most technological advantages, then I can understand people wanting to go for Apple's somewhat larger version.



    But if the technological advantages in all 3 are the same, then yeah… why nót go for Nokia's version? The only way Nokia could mess this up is if they ask for rediculous royalties or something. And looking at their complaint (attempt to devalue competitors) I have a feeling Nokia wants some above average royalties to be paid for their efforts.
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by flabber View Post


    But if the technological advantages in all 3 are the same, then yeah? why nót go for Nokia's version?



    Backwards compatibility with Apple's design seems like the biggest reason at this point.
  • flabberflabber Posts: 87member
    True… and besides, it wouldn't hurt if the big mouthed companies like Nokia lose every once in a while. Some companies (RIM for example) can't handle a loss, but if you can it's usually a nice wake up call to start innovating a bit more… something Nokia hasn't really done in a while imho.
  • jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,331member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by flabber View Post


    True? and besides, it wouldn't hurt if the big mouthed companies like Nokia lose every once in a while. Some companies (RIM for example) can't handle a loss, but if you can it's usually a nice wake up call to start innovating a bit more? something Nokia hasn't really done in a while imho.



    Actually I would have thought Nokia has been doing plenty of losing recently, and it would be Apple being the big mouthed company that could do with losing once in a while.



    Now I know posters like you have trouble recognising the difference between shiney and innovation, but can you give some examples of all this innovation others are doing?
  • flabberflabber Posts: 87member
    Apple, Microsoft and Google have been doing innovative things to a lesser or larger degree depending on your point of view (with interfaces, technological ones or otherwise).



    Nokia has been doing a lot of that sort of thing about 8 years ago I believe, but they haven't done that in a while. They have been losing a lot in the past few years, just like you mentioned… but that's primarily on the phone business itself. As far as new technologisch go (SIM cards in this case) they haven't really done anything worth mentioning I believe. I could be wrong of course, but about 8 years ago all I heard (in Holland) was Nokia Nokia Nokia
  • bullheadbullhead Posts: 492member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


    That might work in North America but European and Asian consumers are very much in favour of SIM cards. If you live near the border of several countries, go travelling a lot or live in a country with a competitive GSM market then physical SIM cards are a massive boon.



    Thing is, there is no reason why a SIM card is needed. It should be done all through software. Carrying around multiple physical cards to swap in and out is just plain stupid and not necessary. SIMs should die.
  • jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,933member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by retroneo View Post


    Apple's is by far the largest at 12.3 x 8.8mm - not much smaller than today's 12 x 15mm Micro SIM.

    Nokia's 10 x 8mm is the smallest, so why not go for it?



    My opinion, because you can't use a simple mechanical adapter to make it work in larger SIM slots. Which is a feature I've used on micro SIMs a few times already.



    Quote:

    Nokia's point is that 12.3mm is too close to 12mm. Someone trying to put a nano SIM into a Micro SIM slot will jam the slot up.



    There will always be people that try to put square pegs into round holes, one can justify going only so far in idiot-proofing. I really don't think Nokia's point is valid, because someone that can't tell the card isn't the right type for the pocket has more pressing problems.



    However, I think it's a problem that can be quickly remedied by changing a dimension. If Nokia actually has IP tied up with their offering as they hint, then that's a bigger boondoggle that can't be remedied as easily. Otherwise, I don't understand their "devaluing" objection.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bullhead View Post


    Thing is, there is no reason why a SIM card is needed. It should be done all through software. Carrying around multiple physical cards to swap in and out is just plain stupid and necessary. SIMs should die.



    I think it's a good idea, however, what software? What reasonably secure and reliable means can offer a guaranteed way to operate on several different phone OSs, that's as simple as a physical SIM? Those are major problems that need to be addressed. There may be regulatory hurdles that should be addressed too.
  • bullheadbullhead Posts: 492member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    I think it's a good idea, however, what software? What reasonably secure and reliable means can offer a guaranteed way to operate on several different phone OSs, that's as simple as a physical SIM? Those are major problems that need to be addressed. There may be regulatory hurdles that should be addressed too.



    The phone OS can store whatever keys are needed to get on a network.
  • eye forgeteye forget Posts: 154member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Which is why getting rid of the physical SIM is the way to go for consumers.



    Perhaps for people who don't travel. We have at least 5 sims, 3 different carriers in this house and they are swapped frequently. There's a reason why sims are popular, if not a world wide standard, and it's not due to regulatory whims. People like them as they provide for far more flexibility than you can get in the USA where you need to buy a new phone, along with a multi-year contract, simply to switch carriers.
  • jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,933member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bullhead View Post


    The phone OS can store whatever keys are needed to get on a network.



    Yes, but it's not as simple and convenient as a physical key, and I don't think any carrier anywhere will accept a system where a key allows subscribers to just enter into multiple devices.



    I suppose a system that gives you a QR code might work.
  • bullheadbullhead Posts: 492member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Eye Forget View Post


    Perhaps for people who don't travel. We have at least 5 sims, 3 different carriers in this house and they are swapped frequently. There's a reason why sims are popular, if not a world wide standard, and it's not due to regulatory whims. People like them as they provide for far more flexibility than you can get in the USA where you need to buy a new phone, along with a multi-year contract, simply to switch carriers.



    there are multiple issues here. Yes, if you switch to a carrier with a different type of network, yes you would have to buy a new phone. So you would prefer to physically swap cards versus being able to simply have the phone "just" work across carriers?
  • bullheadbullhead Posts: 492member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    Yes, but it's not as simple and convenient as a physical key, and I don't think any carrier anywhere will accept a system where a key allows subscribers to just enter into multiple devices.



    I suppose a system that gives you a QR code might work.



    Point is, a user should not have to enter anything. The phone should "just" work. Sounds like a standards based software protocol would be the better solution.
  • jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,933member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bullhead View Post


    Point is, a user should not have to enter anything. The phone should "just" work. Sounds like a standards based software protocol would be the better solution.



    How do you propose a mechanism of making it "just work"? How does the phone and carrier know how to tie to each other without any user intervention? The carrier will have to know how to identify the device and to identify the subscriber. A physical SIM did that for you. It doesn't even line up with your network keys suggestion, because you can't get on a WiFi network without entering the key manually.



    The CDMA system was SIM-less but it took a half hour phone call with the carrier to get things switched over to a new account or to switch phones.
  • maestro64maestro64 Posts: 2,959member
    For those who do not understand the value of the SIM, just go to VZ and see what it takes to switch phones when an old one dies or you loose it. Or for people like me who has a number of old phones around the house which I still use for various reason like I would not take my smart phone on a camping trip if I could help it. I move SIM card from one phone to another without a problem. Also as my kids have done they buy their friends old phones and pop their SIM and off they are running does not require any involvement form the phone company what so ever.





    I have to give Apple the thumps up on stating with the traditional design of the SIM, it the old idea of, it is work do not fix it. I can tell you using the design the Nokia and RIM have will be problems, they closely match the desigh of the MircoSD cards and I can tell you they have problems stay in contact with the connector. Have the connection point on the edge is not that good, doing it like the current SIM design with the connections in the middle work well.



    But Nokia is correct apple is trying to devalue what others are doing, but they set up the industry and Nokia bit at it, now apple will agree in order for the industry to grow and innovate these essential IP will need to be freely share, Apple will use the Nokia state to show they they are trying to slow down competition
  • jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,933member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post


    But Nokia is correct apple is trying to devalue what others are doing,



    Please explain this. How does this SIM standard do that? So far, I've not seen a good explanation from Nokia on this claim. In particular, why does Nokia's version of a nano SIM involve IP that Nokia needs to protect?
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