Democrats, stop effing pretending your President thinks Obamacare is Constitutional

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  • brbr Posts: 8,252member
    I didn't hear him say the word unconstitutional in that clip. I heard him say he didn't think it would work. Turns out the President compromised in order to get healthcare for those in need. I don't know what your point is here, anyway. You won't admit that Romney was for it when he clearly was. How can you then turn around and attempt a similar argument?
  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    I didn't hear him say the word unconstitutional in that clip. I heard him say he didn't think it would work. Turns out the President compromised in order to get healthcare for those in need.



    He said that if the government could mandate you buy insurance, it could mandate you buy a house. A constitutional lawyer doesn't make that statement without knowing it means "unconstitutional." The USSC's questions today directly mirrored Obama's own words.



    Quote:



    I don't know what your point is here, anyway. You won't admit that Romney was for it when he clearly was. How can you then turn around and attempt a similar argument?



    He wasn't for it. Ever. You fail to understand that I'm not taking issue with the concept of mandates themselves, nor is Romney. I'm taking issue with the federal government making you buy a product under the guises of interstate commerce. It's an issue of enumerated powers. If the federal government can make you buy healthcare, it can make you buy just about anything on the grounds it affects other people or involves interstate commerce. It's a Constitutional problem, not one of mandates being good or bad at any level of government.
  • brbr Posts: 8,252member
    Your arguments thus far have amounted to nothing more than "nuh uh, he wasn't." I provided VIDEO CLIPS in which he EXPLICITLY STATED he was for individual mandates. What you presented here was a clip of Obama simply disagreeing with the idea in 2008 and you putting words in his mouth now.
  • brbr Posts: 8,252member
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=2M9gGwW2gCs



    HE WAS IN FAVOR OF A FEDERAL MANDATE! THE VIDEO DOESN'T LIE! Now, on the other hand, you do.
  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    Your arguments thus far have amounted to nothing more than "nuh uh, he wasn't." I provided VIDEO CLIPS in which he EXPLICITLY STATED he was for individual mandates.





    The VIDEO CLIPS don't show him supporting FEDERAL mandates. That's because he doesn't. And frankly, I think you know it.



    Quote:



    What you presented here was a clip of Obama simply disagreeing with the idea in 2008 and you putting words in his mouth now.



    He used the same logic in "disagreeing" with it as the opponents are using now. Obama, a Constitutional lawyer, used the same argument. Are you kidding me, sir?
  • brbr Posts: 8,252member
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=2M9gGwW2gCs



    HE WAS IN FAVOR OF A FEDERAL MANDATE! THE VIDEO DOESN'T LIE! Now, on the other hand, you do.
  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=2M9gGwW2gCs



    HE WAS IN FAVOR OF A FEDERAL MANDATE! THE VIDEO DOESN'T LIE! Now, on the other hand, you do.



    I've seen that. It's hard to make the case that because he mentioned Wyden-Bennett and "getting everyone insurance" he supports a federal mandate. In fact, he's explained many times that his idea was to allow states to craft their own plans. Secondly, an individual mandate is only one component of Wyden-Bennett (it includes exceptions to the rule as well). It includes other major features and is vastly different from Obamacare.



    BR, in 10 years of Romney interviews, that's the only one I've ever seen that even could be interpreted to mean he might have supported a federal mandate. Since that time he's repeatedly stated he does not has never supported federal mandates. Are you saying he's lying?
  • brbr Posts: 8,252member
    July 2009 Op-Ed in USA today. Romney wrote the following:



    Quote:

    Health care cannot be handled the same way as the stimulus and cap-and-trade bills. With those, the president stuck to the old style of lawmaking: He threw in every special favor imaginable, ground it up and crammed it through a partisan Democratic Congress. Health care is simply too important to the economy, to employment and to America's families to be larded up and rushed through on an artificial deadline. There's a better way. And the lessons we learned in Massachusetts could help Washington find it.



    He goes on to be more explicitly in favor of a federal individual mandate.



    Quote:

    Our experience also demonstrates that getting every citizen insured doesn't have to break the bank. First, we established incentives for those who were uninsured to buy insurance. Using tax penalties, as we did, or tax credits, as others have proposed, encourages "free riders" to take responsibility for themselves rather than pass their medical costs on to others. This doesn't cost the government a single dollar. Second, we helped pay for our new program by ending an old one — something government should do more often. The federal government sends an estimated $42 billion to hospitals that care for the poor: Use those funds instead to help the poor buy private insurance, as we did.



    Now it's more than just an interview's slip of the tongue. He deliberately wrote in favor of an individual mandate. Romney was in favor of one--until Obama was.



    There's a tinge of humor in the irony of Republicans losing their shit, calling their own policies socialism, and attempting to get them declared unconstitutional. Just a tinge though. It's mostly sad, pathetic, and demonstrates a complete lack of patriotism--again ironic coming from the biggest fucking flag wavers.
  • bergermeisterbergermeister Posts: 6,784member
    The title says "your" president... he is the president of the US, so it would be "our" president. Unless the Right has seceded already?



    That doesn't mean that we have to always agree with him on everything, which is the nature of a democracy.
  • marvfoxmarvfox Posts: 2,275member


    It is disgraceful a rich country like the United States does not have a National Health Care Plan.Everyone is bitching and moaning about Obama care but the dam republicans don't do a dam thing about trying to get a decent health plan of their own for the poor and middle class but just complain and bitch and moan. Screw them!
  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    July 2009 Op-Ed in USA today. Romney wrote the following:







    He goes on to be more explicitly in favor of a federal individual mandate.







    Now it's more than just an interview's slip of the tongue. He deliberately wrote in favor of an individual mandate. Romney was in favor of one--until Obama was.



    There's a tinge of humor in the irony of Republicans losing their shit, calling their own policies socialism, and attempting to get them declared unconstitutional. Just a tinge though. It's mostly sad, pathetic, and demonstrates a complete lack of patriotism--again ironic coming from the biggest fucking flag wavers.



    I'm sorry, that's not accurate. You and many others have interpreted those words to mean that he meant an individual federal mandate. But he never says it, and has denied taking that position time and time again. He has repeatedly called for Obamacare to be repealed.



    None of it matters anyway. It looks like the USSC is going to toss the mandate on its butt. This will have a devastating impact on Obama politically. It will kill his "signature accomplishment" because it won't be funded any longer. And it will change the debate from whether Romney supported mandates to what should be done in the future.
  • brbr Posts: 8,252member
    Let me see if I can paraphrase what you just wrote.





    LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!
  • brbr Posts: 8,252member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    The title says "your" president... he is the president of the US, so it would be "our" president. Unless the Right has seceded already?



    That doesn't mean that we have to always agree with him on everything, which is the nature of a democracy.



    Yup. Very telling.
  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,198member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    The title says "your" president... he is the president of the US, so it would be "our" president. Unless the Right has seceded already?



    That doesn't mean that we have to always agree with him on everything, which is the nature of a democracy.



    Perhaps he was just referring to the fact that he doesn't look like Obama's imaginary son.
  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    Perhaps he was just referring to the fact that he doesn't look like Obama's imaginary son.



  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    Let me see if I can paraphrase what you just wrote.





    LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!



    from this:



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    I'm sorry, that's not accurate. You and many others have interpreted those words to mean that he meant an individual federal mandate. But he never says it, and has denied taking that position time and time again. He has repeatedly called for Obamacare to be repealed.



    None of it matters anyway. It looks like the USSC is going to toss the mandate on its butt. This will have a devastating impact on Obama politically. It will kill his "signature accomplishment" because it won't be funded any longer. And it will change the debate from whether Romney supported mandates to what should be done in the future.



    No, let me paraphrase for YOU.



    1. Romney does not favor a federal mandate.

    2. There is extremely scant evidence he ever supported one. He's never explicitly stated so.

    3. He's repeatedly denied favoring a federal mandate

    4. He wants to repeal and replace Obamacare since its passage.

    5. The mandate is likely to be ruled unconstitutional anyway, making the issue moot.



    I realize you're having fun playing with yourself (perhaps in that way) and accusing all conservatives of hypocrisy and dishonesty. But that won't work on me, because I've certainly never favored a federal mandate and have always believed it to be unconstitutional. Secondly, I've opposed Obamacare from the beginning. The candidate I'm voting for takes the position that it needs to be repealed. I agree with that position, and I'm not concerned about his past support of mandates at the state level. There is zero chance he will pursue a federal mandate if elected...and that's really what matters, not your ridiculous gotcha politics and partisan games.
  • Obama was making a policy argument against it, not a legal argument. No one thought it was unconstitutional until, oh, about the time it passed.
  • tontontonton Posts: 14,063member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by marvfox View Post


    It is disgraceful a rich country like the United States does not have a National Health Care Plan.Everyone is bitching and moaning about Obama care but the dam republicans don't do a dam thing about trying to get a decent health plan of their own for the poor and middle class but just complain and bitch and moan. Screw them!



    For once you have a point. The fact that the US is the last modern nation without (officially sanctioned) free health care for the poor is absolutely disgraceful.
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    No nation has "free" healthcare.
  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,121member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I used to be brussell View Post


    Obama was making a policy argument against it, not a legal argument.



    He said "...if things were that simple, I could mandate everyone buy a house and that solve the problem of homelessness." That's exactly the argument the conservative justices were addressing yesterday. Given that, and the fact that Obama is a lawyer, it's most certainly a legal argument.



    This is exactly why the justices talked about the slippery slope. If the feds can make you buy health insurance because it's a market everyone eventually participates in, then they can do that for any other market. It's why Scalia mentioned broccoli. Everyone participates in buying food, and broccoli is good for you. Why can't the government mandate you buy broccoli or pay a fine? Why can't the government make you buy a cell phone or pay a fine? Everyone participates in the need for communication, and cell phones can be an important safety tool. Why not mandate it?



    This is why the federal government's argument is almost certainly doomed. Their position has been "trust us...the healthcare market is unique..we don't do it anywhere else." I'm not going to be surprised if it gets overturned more than 5-4.
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