Apple proposes refunds for Australian customers unhappy with '4G' iPad [u]

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  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by svale View Post


    You just took what I said out of context. I said "elsewhere in the country", not "elsewhere" (in general). There's a big difference when you're operating just within the confines of one country and its laws.



    I pointed out that you've acknowledged the device has the capability to connect to certain network types but is not stating that certain network types are automatically available everywhere. Apple has also stated this on their website.
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by svale View Post


    Seriously, this is like the "does it or does it not support 3G" issue all over again. I give Apple two years tops before they release a quad- or penta-band LTE iPad that'll make the majority happy.



    It was only in 2010 that the first penta-band 3G phone shipped. That was from Nokia. Apple was 2nd with the iPhone 4 that year. That's a very long time between 3G existing and the first pent-band chips being used.



    So now we have an issue where even in 2012 the MDM9610 can only support 2 LTE bands at one time. We can infer this because if it could support 3 LTE bands then Apple could have reduced the number of iPad WiFi+4G models by 6 by making one that supports both Verizon and AT&T's 2G, 3G and 4G networks.



    Will the upcoming MDM9615 support more than 2 LTE bands? I can't find any info on it. How many bands will be needed to support all networks in all countries implementing LTE? So far we have two different 700 MHz bands and 2100 Mhz in the US. There are also 800, 1700, 1800, 1900, 2600 MHz bands that I'm aware of. That's at least 8 bands and likely a lot more when you consider how you can have multiple frequency bands that use different operating bands.



    I hope Apple and Qualcomm have planned for this or the iPhone will not be "world mode" when it comes to LTE and they might see themselves having to create a different physical model for multiple countries for the first time.
  • svalesvale Posts: 16member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    I pointed out that you've acknowledged the device has the capability to connect to certain network types but is not stating that certain network types are automatically available everywhere. Apple has also stated this on their website.



    You're missing my point. Yes, I have acknowledged that it has the capability to connect to certain network types, but in the case of LTE in Australia, it does not have the capability to connect at all. Apple should not be marketing the iPad from an international "one size fits all" perspective.



    While operating in Australia, they should be abiding by the country's trading laws. There's no point saying "hey, here's the iPad Wi-Fi + 4G", and then clarifying through fine print; that just won't cut it. Most consumers will not easily see this in advertising and packaging. Like I said earlier, legally, Australian consumers have their statutory rights, both written and implied, so in seeing how Apple has marketed the iPad, they should reasonably expect it to be able to connect to Telstra's LTE network. But it does not - hence why the ACCC has jumped in.



    Look, all the stuff I've seen on AI, Ars, MacRumors, TUAW and so on have been written from a very US-centric perspective. Being an Australian, I thought I'd jump in and clarify just how things work in this country. Whether or not you choose to accept it is another matter. It's clear that we both have our points of view and that we're just going around in circles, so how about we just leave it at that? <handshakes all around>
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by svale View Post


    Look, all the stuff I've seen on AI, Ars, MacRumors, TUAW and so on have been written from a very US-centric perspective. Being an Australian, I thought I'd jump in and clarify just how things work in this country. Whether or not you choose to accept it is another matter. It's clear that we both have our points of view and that we're just going around in circles, so how about we just leave it at that?



    What haven't I accepted? I've clearly stated that it would behoove Apple to follow the laws of a country that has chosen to define what is 4G even if it's silly, irrational and goes against the ITU's definition. That does not mean that Apple's nomenclature is misleading. If the Australian courts have said that only LTE is 4G and that for a device to be called 4G it has to be able to connect to Australia's LTE network then so be it, but it still doesn't change the fact that Apple is not lying about the claims of the iPad's capability.
  • drblankdrblank Posts: 3,383member
    What i have been told is that the chipset Apple is using doesn't support the other bands that some markets are installing. Is there a chipset that supports ALL of the different bands for all of the different technology that is currently in use or planned to be rolled out?
  • svalesvale Posts: 16member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    That does not mean that Apple's nomenclature is misleading... it still doesn't change the fact that Apple is not lying about the claims of the iPad's capability.



    We're in agreement that they're not lying, but I would definitely regard it as misleading as far as use within Australia is concerned. At the end of the day, you say tomato, I say tomahto.
  • therbotherbo Posts: 70member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by WardC View Post


    This is so dumb, anybody with a brain would realize that the iPad is 4G capable, it has 4G modem circuitry inside, that means IF THERE IS a 4G network available, it will operate at 4G speed. A consumer should know that the Australian networks are not 4G LTE before they buy the iPad....they could take it on a trip to the USA anytime and use it on America's 4G LTE networks -- the iPad IS 4G-capable!! yes....but if the network infrastructure is not there to support it, that functionality will not work. This should be known from the start, this is NOT some con by Apple, it is just simply ignorant, uneducated consumers who don't know anything about electronics or wireless technology or how networks work and operate. The EQUIPMENT (towers, antennas, and routers) have to be in place for a 4G network to work, and that kind of network simply isn't being offered in Aussie-land yet. But the 4G iPad IS a 4G iPad true and true. No deception by Apple.



    They sold it as Wifi + 4G when it never worked on 4G. Why would someone goto the US and pay your stupid data rates just to use 4G.



    Their advertising it in the UK as 4G and half my friends who got one now think its gonna get 72Mbps download.
  • svalesvale Posts: 16member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by drblank View Post


    What i have been told is that the chipset Apple is using doesn't support the other bands that some markets are installing. Is there a chipset that supports ALL of the different bands for all of the different technology that is currently in use or planned to be rolled out?



    See SolipsismX's post around five posts ago.
  • therbotherbo Posts: 70member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by drblank View Post


    What i have been told is that the chipset Apple is using doesn't support the other bands that some markets are installing. Is there a chipset that supports ALL of the different bands for all of the different technology that is currently in use or planned to be rolled out?



    There's chipsets that support all bands of GSM and HSPA, which is in the iPad, but LTE isn't finished.
  • therbotherbo Posts: 70member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    What haven't I accepted? I've clearly stated that it would behoove Apple to follow the laws of a country that has chosen to define what is 4G even if it's silly, irrational and goes against the ITU's definition. That does not mean that Apple's nomenclature is misleading. If the Australian courts have said that only LTE is 4G and that for a device to be called 4G it has to be able to connect to Australia's LTE network then so be it, but it still doesn't change the fact that Apple is not lying about the claims of the iPad's capability.





    Their lying because their advertising something the majority of Austrlians (and the rest of the world) won't get on the new iPad
  • drblankdrblank Posts: 3,383member
    Here is what sucks, there are all these different carriers, different speed networks running on various bands and we have to select one carrier in the beginning and sometimes just simply can't change carrier so easily. With these SIM chips, we have to change from one carrier to another, which is kind of a hassle. It certainly would be nice if we didn't have to do it. Personally, the amount of money they are charging for 4G LTE is freaking expensive. IF someone downloads a few 1080p movies a month is going to exceed the most expensive rate listed which increases the cost of downloading a movie. It's one thing to rent or buy it, but to add the outrageous costs of carrier services adds to it. I almost would rather download it from a Wi FI connection if I have a fast ISP, which many people have or can get. Something has to give. I think these 4G LTE carriers are just gouging us now and that HOPEFULLY these monthly charges will go down or they will simply remove the data usage restrictions, which they shouldn't have in the first place.
  • therbotherbo Posts: 70member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by svale View Post


    . But it does not - hence why the ACCC has jumped in.



    Look, all the stuff I've seen on AI, Ars, MacRumors, TUAW and so on have been written from a very US-centric perspective. Being an Australian, I thought I'd jump in and clarify just how things work in this country. Whether or not you choose to accept it is another matter. It's clear that we both have our points of view and that we're just going around in circles, so how about we just leave it at that? <handshakes all around>





    The Americans also get confused about how networks work outside the US, and that Apple actually sells more devices internationally then there.
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Therbo View Post


    Their lying because their advertising something the majority of Austrlians (and the rest of the world) won't get on the new iPad



    Except that it does get 4G in Australia (and the rest of the world) according to the ITU's definition. Why is that all of a sudden not an acceptable definition for the rest of the world?



    Again, if Australia actually has laws that state you cannot use the ITU's definition of 4G then Apple is in the wrong for the advertising in that country, but they are certainly not lying as there is no statement by Apple that says it's 4G according to Telestra's definition of 4G.
  • zozmanzozman Posts: 385member
    In Australia small text at the bottom of the box does NOT excuse a company for false advertising, it just doesn't.

    The idea behind this suit isn't to attack apple, it is to protect consumers,

    it is very very simple.





    PS i just looked at my New iPad 4G box....Yeah.... no warning sticker...the end.
  • adamcadamc Posts: 467member
    I believe Australia is,the only country where people will buy an NTSC TV knowing that it wouldn't work in that country.



    Btw common sense is dead in Australia. I was at a bank and the people were queuing to be served and All of them waited for the word 'next' and if none is forthcoming they just stood in line. So if the teller kept quiet for the next 30 minutes I believe they would just stand there and waiting to be called.



    [racist comment removed]



    Sad.
  • djsherlydjsherly Posts: 844member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Except that it does get 4G in Australia (and the rest of the world) according to the ITU's definition. Why is that all of a sudden not an acceptable definition for the rest of the world?



    Again, if Australia actually has laws that state you cannot use the ITU's definition of 4G then Apple is in the wrong for the advertising in that country, but they are certainly not lying as there is no statement by Apple that says it's 4G according to Telestra's definition of 4G.



    I don't know why you're all hung up on the ITU's definition. I don't think it's as important as you make it out to be. Remember, we're talking about consumers here.



    No Telco has ever made out HSPA+ to be 4G in Australia. I think that bears repeating.
  • adamcadamc Posts: 467member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Therbo View Post


    They sold it as Wifi + 4G when it never worked on 4G. Why would someone goto the US and pay your stupid data rates just to use 4G.



    Their advertising it in the UK as 4G and half my friends who got one now think its gonna get 72Mbps download.



    Don't you think it is dumb knowing that they is no 4G in your country and you expect it to have 4G connectivity.



    It's common sense or common sense is lacking in your country too.
  • svalesvale Posts: 16member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    Except that it does get 4G in Australia (and the rest of the world) according to the ITU's definition. Why is that all of a sudden not an acceptable definition for the rest of the world?



    The ITU defines 4G as IMT-Advanced, and considers forerunners such as LTE and WiMax, to also be 4G. They do loosely say evolved 3G technologies may also be considered, but until the revised ITU-R recommendation comes out later this year, no one can confidently say what technologies do and do not constitute evolved 3G technologies.



    So, strictly speaking, the iPad does not support 4G in Australia.
  • chainsawchainsaw Posts: 3member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sennen View Post


    So you haven't noticed the disclaimers all over Apple's advertising for this? They were the first thing I noticed. In this case the ACCC is wasting tax-payers money protecting no-one.



    The following is a disclaimer taken directly from the Apple Store Australia:



    "4G coverage is not available in all areas and varies by carrier. See your carrier for details."



    With reference to this specific statement, according to the legislation a consumer could reasonably expect that "not available in all areas" infers that 4G is available in at least some areas, which is patently not the case unless, of course, he or she travels internationally.



    A reasonable consumer shouldn't have to have a level of technical knowledge above what is considered, well, reasonable to allow them to decipher advertising. If the evidence suggests that it is likely that a reasonable consumer could be mislead then Apple may have a case to answer. Debating frequencies is beside the point. Apple is advertising a Wifi + 4G product which will not connect to 4G in the market in which it is being sold. It need to make this clear so consumers can make an informed choice.



    Imagine if all the iMacs sold in the Australian market played only Region 1 DVDs. Even if Apple put this in the fine print, it would, in all likelihood, create a similar problem.



    The Trade Practices Act is very powerful piece of legislation, and applies whether you're talking about consumer electronics or breakfast cereal.
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post


    I don't know why you're all hung up on the ITU's definition. I don't think it's as important as you make it out to be. Remember, we're talking about consumers here.



    No Telco has ever made out HSPA+ to be 4G in Australia. I think that bears repeating.



    The ITU has been defining these standards for a long time and the world has followed them, but now we are ignoring the ITU and following the telco's definitions? If the telcos can do it then why not the vendors? Where is the sense in that?
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