Nothing is confusing there. IMHO this is a completely made up BS story just to milk Apple for some $$.
Agreed. The iPad WiFi + 4G is not at all false advertising. This is ridiculous. The iPhone 3G didn't run on T-Mobile's 3G network, or even Verizon's or any other CDMA network across the world, yet for some reason no one sued Apple for that!? Now all of a sudden when Apple says 4G it MUST work on ALL 4G networks all over the world!? 4G is not a singular technology. Just as with 3G there are different incompatible technologies involved.
Just seems to me that someone is just stirring up the next anti-Apple scandal. Sure there ARE going to be some people that actually want and need "4G" and will buy solely on that feature, but I seriously doubt most people care.
The only people who have anything to argue are those that went into an Apple store and were told by an Apple employee, that the new iPad will work on your carrier's 4G network at 4G speeds when in fact it doesn't, it may fall to 3G speeds.
It is a matter of common sense but if people are gullible then they need to be protected otherwise they too gullible to take care of themseleves.
If a country doesn't have 4G connectivity only gullible people will think they can, by magic, have 4G connectivity by buying the new iPad.
Very sad.
The problem is that the countries (including Portugal where I live) do have 4G connectivity, just that they use different frequencies to those used in North America. It's not "gullible" if a customer who lives in a country which has proper 4G networks expects that a device marketed as 4G should be able to use those networks at 4G speeds.
They should just name it iPad Wi-Fi + 3G/LTE-USA because it will never be capable of LTE in other countries if the frequencies are not compatible.
In the USA the term 4G was just a transition marketing word but now it doesn't have the same panache since we have LTE. Anyone with the slightest interest in technology, in the US, would not be buying a 4G anything unless it was LTE.
It is a matter of common sense but if people are gullible then they need to be protected otherwise they too gullible to take care of themseleves.
If a country doesn't have 4G connectivity only gullible people will think they can, by magic, have 4G connectivity by buying the new iPad.
Very sad.
So then what would be your answer to the Swedes who do have 4G LTE service, but not on any iPad 4G. Might many of them expect it to work unless it's plainly specified otherwise? Or even the Aussies who also have 4G LTE on Telstra?
What's different about this to the iPhone 4S showing "AT&T 4G" when connected to an HSPA+ cell? And that doesn't seem to have created the same amount of controversy.
Deceptive advertising is illegal in many countries.
Of course, but the law has no teeth (at least in North America), and hasn't had for about 40 years or so.
I know in Canada at least, when the rules were codified in the 70's most of what we now take as "normal" was considered illegal. The laws haven't changed but no one enforces them and the few times it's pushed forward by a (necessarily wealthy) third party, the petitioner basically fails almost 100% of the time.
In any case my point was more philosophical. Advertising is based on deception. The whole point of it is to misdirect or fool the consumer into thinking something is A when it's really B. All adverts are this way in that their purpose is to manage perceptions, not to state true facts about a product.
But this is simply not true, 4G is a standard that is and has been available in other countries long before it was available in the US. The LTE standard was first implemented in Sweden where it actually works according to the standard. AT&T and Verizon is actually diverting from the standard.
I don't think this is true at all.
AFAIK, the LTE standard as originally defined has not been implemented anywhere on the planet so far. It requires everything to be IP based for starters.
AFAIK, the LTE standard as originally defined has not been implemented anywhere on the planet so far. It requires everything to be IP based for starters.
TeliaSonera's 4G LTE network is a complete implementation of the LTE standard only failing falling short on the max throughput which is around 80 Mb/s instead of the 300 Mb/s which the standard describes.
IP based have GSM been since it introduced GPRS (2G)...
Of course, but the law has no teeth (at least in North America), and hasn't had for about 40 years or so.
We are not talking about North America. Especially in Europe, but in many other countries too, there aren't the corporate lobby groups and law are written to protect consumers first.
Quote:
In any case my point was more philosophical. Advertising is based on deception. The whole point of it is to misdirect or fool the consumer into thinking something is A when it's really B. All adverts are this way in that their purpose is to manage perceptions, not to state true facts about a product.
There is a fine line between implying something and stating it as fact. You can imply but you cannot deceive. A beer commercial may feature attractive women and imply you will get lucky if you drink this brand of beer. But they are not allowed to state as fact that you will score with that cute blonde.
Has Apple crossed this line? I don't know but it is certainly on the edge.
This just says that your Operators are retarded. Any consumer with a minimal trace of grey matter within their scull understands, that up to now 4G speeds are for US and Canada only. How difficult is this to understand.
BTW I am from europe and I am not native english speaking, but still one glimpse at the specs, and I knew 4G won't work where I live.
If it doesn't support 4G in a country then they shouldn't effing well advertise it as 4G in that country. HOW HARD IS THAT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND.
Why doesn't Apple simply do what HTC, Samsung, etc... do and put country specific radios in each device? It does suck to know that you're buying a device that doesn't work to it's full potential in your country...
where does it say it connects to 4g?! The only mention of 4g is in the device name "ipad with wifi+4g". The ipad is definitely is capable of connecting to 4g networks and the hardware to do so exist in the device. At the bottom of the same page it says:
4g lte is supported only on at&t and verizon networks in the us, and on bell, rogers and telus networks in canada. Data plans sold separately. See your carrier for details.
what part of "supported only on" is hard to understand?!
They should put that quote at the of the page in enormous bold letters. That way nobody outside the US/Canada would waste their money buying the WiFi+4G version.
1. According to the ITU (which sets the standards), HSPA+ is 4G. So Apple is well within its rights to call it a 4G device. One could possibly make an exception in countries where the local law uses a different definition (like Australia), but even that argument would be weak.
I'd guess this is where the problem really lies. ITU-T bent into the demands of the US operators marketing teams and in that caused a lot of confusion by changing an already quite well known term's definition.
In many parts of the world 4G has been equated with LTE for a long time. It's quite recent (and heavily US-led) to call HSPA+ networks 4G. In Europe for eample 4G has been used much more (dare I say almost exclusively in the past years) in LTE marketing and hardly at all in HSPA+ marketing.
So if you go to such a market, which already has LTE (which in many consumer's view is 4G) and market your device as 4G, but it doesn't do LTE in your country even though it does have LTE, that is confusing. Naturally for the visitors of this site, it's not an issue, but for a vast consumer population it is.
The information about LTE working only in a few networks in US and Canada is on the site yes, but it's in small print, which many, many people do not read.
Technically Apple is correct, but that's not what the case is about.
It's not an apple only problem, it's an industry-wide marketing problem, which may lead to other similar suits with other vendors as well in similar cases.
Why doesn't Apple simply do what HTC, Samsung, etc... do and put country specific radios in each device? It does suck to know that you're buying a device that doesn't work to it's full potential in your country...
I feel Apple should have been more clear about this in places where there is incompatible 4G. In the UK it's quite clear there is no 4G (although the fact that future 4G won't work with the 4G iPad is a bit of a sore spot) so no need for us to look into it. But Sweden and Australia certainly have a case.
Don't think it's worth suing over or refunding -people are overreacting here. All Apple need to do is change the advertising in these countries.
AFAIK, the LTE standard as originally defined has not been implemented anywhere on the planet so far. It requires everything to be IP based for starters.
LTE networks are full IP. That's how it's been specified and implemented. I can name quite a few LTE networks, where everything is transported on IP. Won't say all, because you'll likely find a few exotic exceptions, but most of the LTE networks are fully standards compliant.
I can also name quite a few 3G (WCDMA) networks, which are completely IP-based in all their interfaces (except radio of course - which transports IP data on top of it).
Comments
It is a matter of common sense but if people are gullible then they need to be protected otherwise they too gullible to take care of themseleves.
If a country doesn't have 4G connectivity only gullible people will think they can, by magic, have 4G connectivity by buying the new iPad.
Very sad.
Nothing is confusing there. IMHO this is a completely made up BS story just to milk Apple for some $$.
Agreed. The iPad WiFi + 4G is not at all false advertising. This is ridiculous. The iPhone 3G didn't run on T-Mobile's 3G network, or even Verizon's or any other CDMA network across the world, yet for some reason no one sued Apple for that!? Now all of a sudden when Apple says 4G it MUST work on ALL 4G networks all over the world!? 4G is not a singular technology. Just as with 3G there are different incompatible technologies involved.
Just seems to me that someone is just stirring up the next anti-Apple scandal. Sure there ARE going to be some people that actually want and need "4G" and will buy solely on that feature, but I seriously doubt most people care.
The only people who have anything to argue are those that went into an Apple store and were told by an Apple employee, that the new iPad will work on your carrier's 4G network at 4G speeds when in fact it doesn't, it may fall to 3G speeds.
I meant 4G on the iPad...
Good case in point, though... you have to be very clear or people will misunderstand.
I agree if it was sold as '4G', however in this specific case Apple sells it as '4G LTE'. Which is too specific to be misinterpreted.
I dropped it for redundancy of the point, but ok fine, Wifi + 3G + US LTE.
...ooookkkk but the device ONLY works on US LTE so calling it as such seems simple and appropriate for international purposes.
No, I think they should call it the iPad Wifi + 700/2100 LTE US and Canada 4G + UK/OZ/AUS/DEN 3G edition - maybe less confusing?
It is a matter of common sense but if people are gullible then they need to be protected otherwise they too gullible to take care of themseleves.
If a country doesn't have 4G connectivity only gullible people will think they can, by magic, have 4G connectivity by buying the new iPad.
Very sad.
The problem is that the countries (including Portugal where I live) do have 4G connectivity, just that they use different frequencies to those used in North America. It's not "gullible" if a customer who lives in a country which has proper 4G networks expects that a device marketed as 4G should be able to use those networks at 4G speeds.
In the USA the term 4G was just a transition marketing word but now it doesn't have the same panache since we have LTE. Anyone with the slightest interest in technology, in the US, would not be buying a 4G anything unless it was LTE.
It's (a bit) deceptive but that's capitalism and advertising is at root based on deception and misdirection, so this is nothing new.
Deceptive advertising is illegal in many countries.
It is a matter of common sense but if people are gullible then they need to be protected otherwise they too gullible to take care of themseleves.
If a country doesn't have 4G connectivity only gullible people will think they can, by magic, have 4G connectivity by buying the new iPad.
Very sad.
So then what would be your answer to the Swedes who do have 4G LTE service, but not on any iPad 4G. Might many of them expect it to work unless it's plainly specified otherwise? Or even the Aussies who also have 4G LTE on Telstra?
Deceptive advertising is illegal in many countries.
Of course, but the law has no teeth (at least in North America), and hasn't had for about 40 years or so.
I know in Canada at least, when the rules were codified in the 70's most of what we now take as "normal" was considered illegal. The laws haven't changed but no one enforces them and the few times it's pushed forward by a (necessarily wealthy) third party, the petitioner basically fails almost 100% of the time.
In any case my point was more philosophical. Advertising is based on deception. The whole point of it is to misdirect or fool the consumer into thinking something is A when it's really B. All adverts are this way in that their purpose is to manage perceptions, not to state true facts about a product.
But this is simply not true, 4G is a standard that is and has been available in other countries long before it was available in the US. The LTE standard was first implemented in Sweden where it actually works according to the standard. AT&T and Verizon is actually diverting from the standard.
I don't think this is true at all.
AFAIK, the LTE standard as originally defined has not been implemented anywhere on the planet so far. It requires everything to be IP based for starters.
I don't think this is true at all.
AFAIK, the LTE standard as originally defined has not been implemented anywhere on the planet so far. It requires everything to be IP based for starters.
TeliaSonera's 4G LTE network is a complete implementation of the LTE standard only failing falling short on the max throughput which is around 80 Mb/s instead of the 300 Mb/s which the standard describes.
IP based have GSM been since it introduced GPRS (2G)...
Of course, but the law has no teeth (at least in North America), and hasn't had for about 40 years or so.
We are not talking about North America. Especially in Europe, but in many other countries too, there aren't the corporate lobby groups and law are written to protect consumers first.
In any case my point was more philosophical. Advertising is based on deception. The whole point of it is to misdirect or fool the consumer into thinking something is A when it's really B. All adverts are this way in that their purpose is to manage perceptions, not to state true facts about a product.
There is a fine line between implying something and stating it as fact. You can imply but you cannot deceive. A beer commercial may feature attractive women and imply you will get lucky if you drink this brand of beer. But they are not allowed to state as fact that you will score with that cute blonde.
Has Apple crossed this line? I don't know but it is certainly on the edge.
This just says that your Operators are retarded. Any consumer with a minimal trace of grey matter within their scull understands, that up to now 4G speeds are for US and Canada only. How difficult is this to understand.
BTW I am from europe and I am not native english speaking, but still one glimpse at the specs, and I knew 4G won't work where I live.
If it doesn't support 4G in a country then they shouldn't effing well advertise it as 4G in that country. HOW HARD IS THAT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND.
where does it say it connects to 4g?! The only mention of 4g is in the device name "ipad with wifi+4g". The ipad is definitely is capable of connecting to 4g networks and the hardware to do so exist in the device. At the bottom of the same page it says:
4g lte is supported only on at&t and verizon networks in the us, and on bell, rogers and telus networks in canada. Data plans sold separately. See your carrier for details.
what part of "supported only on" is hard to understand?!
They should put that quote at the of the page in enormous bold letters. That way nobody outside the US/Canada would waste their money buying the WiFi+4G version.
1. According to the ITU (which sets the standards), HSPA+ is 4G. So Apple is well within its rights to call it a 4G device. One could possibly make an exception in countries where the local law uses a different definition (like Australia), but even that argument would be weak.
I'd guess this is where the problem really lies. ITU-T bent into the demands of the US operators marketing teams and in that caused a lot of confusion by changing an already quite well known term's definition.
In many parts of the world 4G has been equated with LTE for a long time. It's quite recent (and heavily US-led) to call HSPA+ networks 4G. In Europe for eample 4G has been used much more (dare I say almost exclusively in the past years) in LTE marketing and hardly at all in HSPA+ marketing.
So if you go to such a market, which already has LTE (which in many consumer's view is 4G) and market your device as 4G, but it doesn't do LTE in your country even though it does have LTE, that is confusing. Naturally for the visitors of this site, it's not an issue, but for a vast consumer population it is.
The information about LTE working only in a few networks in US and Canada is on the site yes, but it's in small print, which many, many people do not read.
Technically Apple is correct, but that's not what the case is about.
It's not an apple only problem, it's an industry-wide marketing problem, which may lead to other similar suits with other vendors as well in similar cases.
Regs, Jarkko
Why doesn't Apple simply do what HTC, Samsung, etc... do and put country specific radios in each device? It does suck to know that you're buying a device that doesn't work to it's full potential in your country...
For profit. Suck it up and buy.
Don't think it's worth suing over or refunding -people are overreacting here. All Apple need to do is change the advertising in these countries.
I don't think this is true at all.
AFAIK, the LTE standard as originally defined has not been implemented anywhere on the planet so far. It requires everything to be IP based for starters.
LTE networks are full IP. That's how it's been specified and implemented. I can name quite a few LTE networks, where everything is transported on IP. Won't say all, because you'll likely find a few exotic exceptions, but most of the LTE networks are fully standards compliant.
I can also name quite a few 3G (WCDMA) networks, which are completely IP-based in all their interfaces (except radio of course - which transports IP data on top of it).
Regs, Jarkko