You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.
No, you miss the point. The whole exercise is a scam by Apple to get out of having to pay royalties to Nokia.
Apple only agreed to eschew royalties IF everyone else agreed to do the same, which principally means Nokia.
Apple are trying it on. They have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Whether Nokia is in decline or not is irrelevant to the principle that they should be entitled to receive royalties for their IP if it is used.
It is an attempted stroke by Apple - Nokia are entitled to be paid for their IP like anyone else - Apple want a free lunch by asking everyone to licence their IP for free, when they have absolutely nothing to bring to the party - a party they have contributed nothing to in the past either I might add. Nokia and the others have spent billions improving the SIM cards we all use today, Nokia in particular with 3G technology. Why should Apple be allowed to just come along and soak up the benefits? Should anyone? No.
Get the facts in line here folks, Nokia has a point here.
I won't pretend to understand all the legal and technology stuff behind the battle here but even if Apple is trying to present a sub standard plan (and I doubt that very highly), Nokia sounds really bad with their response to this.
It reminds me of people arguing over Blu Ray vs HD DVD when digital downloads are going to take over soon anyway. Just get rid of simcards and use a username/password instead.
I am not sure I want to go back to the way things worked with CDMA. The SIM card is still the better compromise, IMHO. If you do a lot if travelling you will realise the benefits of simply being able to switch out the SIM card and go with whatever local operator there is.
Exactly. If Apple does that, Nokia's motifs will become obvious. Right now, they aren't, and Nokia is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
You drew the exact opposite conclusion that I would have. I'm more skeptical of their motivations than before precisely because the "jamming" objection is so trifling to fix that it makes them sound like they're grasping at straws to raise this as a deal breaker to the whole submission. A submission to standard is subject to changes before being accepted, it looks like a trivial change.
For other parties to make a submission for a card that breaks pinout compatibility, that seems more suspicious to me, when each iteration kept compatibility.
You drew the exact opposite conclusion that I would have. I'm more skeptical of their motivations than before precisely because the "jamming" objection is so trifling to fix that it makes them sound like they're grasping at straws to raise this as a deal breaker to the whole submission.
I did not draw any conclusion. If Apple fixes the suggested design to be in line with ETSI's regulations, then and only then we can draw conclusions. In the absence of knowledge how Nokia would have acted had Apple's suggestion been compliant, any judgments are mere speculation.
I stand by that Nokia should be given the benefit of the doubt.
I did not draw any conclusion. If Apple fixes the suggested design to be in line with ETSI's regulations, then and only then we can draw conclusions. In the absence of knowledge how Nokia would have acted had Apple's suggestion been compliant, any judgments are mere speculation.
I stand by that Nokia should be given the benefit of the doubt.
I'm saying that degree of benefit doubt is getting tenuous at best. Nokia's really going to completely back out because of 0.3mm because it has users' interests at heart? That's a big stretch. Going nuclear over a procedural matter? I've seen this before, it's called politics. That claim has all the markings of a red herring.
The IP claims have more weight, but polluting a good argument with a marginal one, to me, as well as not having a pin-compatible design, causes me to question their whole position.
You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.
Apple's innovation: use thinner plastic backing for the same chip, and cut away more of said plastic. Use same chip.
Nokia and the others have spent billions improving the SIM cards we all use today
the SIM card does not constitute billions in investments, and has been sufficiently marginalized over the years that its value has dropped dramatically: Carrier locking, SIM restrictions, etc.
If the sim was still a proper standard, you could use an iPhone sim in an iPad.
I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?
Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.
So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".
Your argument is weak, Apple supports other eBook formats other than it's own. As for Facetime, do you really think any of the major players would be interested in using Apple's standard over there own? Facetime is already available on all major devices except Windows and Microsoft owns Skype...
On the other hand, would Apple have any benefit to paying to use Skype's standards?
I don't think Apple reneged on opening Facetime, I think rather than no one is interested.
This is the equivalent of (take your pick): the whiny kid taking his ball and going home because he could not control the game or Lucy telling Charlie Brown to kick the football and then pulling it back as he tries to kick the ball.
I suspect that Nokia's actions will come under review for being anti-competitive. They had better be right about their technical objections because FRAND agreements don't provide for licensing to everyone but those you don't like. They are FRAND because the company agreed to release the patents to all under fair, non-discriminatory terms: i.e., to everyone that can pay a fair fee, no matter the use.
I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?
Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.
So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".
Eh, what garbage are you blethering? Apple created a tool to make textbooks for the iPad only, not for any other manufacturers platform. They have added in features which are not available anywhere else anyway, so whats your beef???
I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?
Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.
So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".
Screwed the web? By introducing a free tool you can use to create iBooks? iBooks. Not generic ebooks. Use other tools if you want portability.
You're right. It's only evil when Apple wants to be paid for their IP, right?
The bolded part is important. Apple is offering a solution which minimizes the difficulty of the transition for everyone. Nokia's solution is proprietary.
In the end, though, this may be what it takes to force the carriers to get rid of SIMs. That would be a good thing in the end.
Everyone's solution is proprietary until it gets accepted by ETSI!
the SIM card does not constitute billions in investments, and has been sufficiently marginalized over the years that its value has dropped dramatically: Carrier locking, SIM restrictions, etc.
If the sim was still a proper standard, you could use an iPhone sim in an iPad.
The SIM is still the most standard approach that we have, and in 99% of devices that are not Apple. I can take a SIM out my (unlocked) phone and put it in a Nokia Booklet/most any 3G SIM enabled device and use my data plan, or a USB modem in a MacBook Air and use my data plan, Sony VAIO, etc etc all using the same SIM. I still have unlimited DATA from O2, why should I have to change that?
You're talking about your experience with (I assume) iPhone/iPad and US carriers. There isn't a more restrictive pairing out there mate, but it doesn't apply to everyone else. That's the gist of this argument.
For other parties to make a submission for a card that breaks pinout compatibility, that seems more suspicious to me, when each iteration kept compatibility.
The touted benefit of the Nokia design, is I believe, that it can be inserted in a slot, whereas Apple's design would need a tray.
Riiight. That's why they're not going to license their patents.
I was thinking the same thing. They are saying they won't play ball because they think that Apple's design doesn't fit the rules. But if it is adopted then isn't that the standards group, which made the rules, saying that it does.
I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?
So who tried to adopt FaceTime and was told by Apple they couldn't.
No one. So perhaps we haven't seen FaceTime outside of Apple because no one has shown an interest. Just like how some games would rather build their own connection network than use Game Center.
The touted benefit of the Nokia design, is I believe, that it can be inserted in a slot, whereas Apple's design would need a tray.
And where is that slot. Because if it is in the phone, under the battery, where cell phones often have their SIM how is that any less cumbersome than Apple's tray that opens up with a metal pin and doesn't require you opening the phone back.
Comments
You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.
No, you miss the point. The whole exercise is a scam by Apple to get out of having to pay royalties to Nokia.
Apple only agreed to eschew royalties IF everyone else agreed to do the same, which principally means Nokia.
Apple are trying it on. They have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Whether Nokia is in decline or not is irrelevant to the principle that they should be entitled to receive royalties for their IP if it is used.
Get the facts in line here folks, Nokia has a point here.
SIM card sizes
SIM card\tStandard reference\t Length (mm) N Width (mm) Thickness (mm)
Full-size\tISO/IEC 7810:2003, ID-1\t 85.60\t 53.98\t 0.76
Mini-SIM\tISO/IEC 7810:2003, ID-000\t 25.00\t 15.00\t 0.76
Micro-SIM\tETSI TS 102 221 V9.0.0, Mini-UICC\t 15.00\t 12.00\t 0.76
Nano-SIM\tETSI TS 102 221 V9.0.0, Mini-UICC\t 12.00\t 9.00\t 0.76
Embedded-SIM\tJEDEC Design Guide 4.8 , SON-8\t 6.00\t 5.00\t <1.0
Hey Mr Nokia you are no longer king pin in this arena so be a goodie and stay quiet!
It reminds me of people arguing over Blu Ray vs HD DVD when digital downloads are going to take over soon anyway. Just get rid of simcards and use a username/password instead.
I am not sure I want to go back to the way things worked with CDMA. The SIM card is still the better compromise, IMHO. If you do a lot if travelling you will realise the benefits of simply being able to switch out the SIM card and go with whatever local operator there is.
Exactly. If Apple does that, Nokia's motifs will become obvious. Right now, they aren't, and Nokia is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
You drew the exact opposite conclusion that I would have. I'm more skeptical of their motivations than before precisely because the "jamming" objection is so trifling to fix that it makes them sound like they're grasping at straws to raise this as a deal breaker to the whole submission. A submission to standard is subject to changes before being accepted, it looks like a trivial change.
For other parties to make a submission for a card that breaks pinout compatibility, that seems more suspicious to me, when each iteration kept compatibility.
You drew the exact opposite conclusion that I would have. I'm more skeptical of their motivations than before precisely because the "jamming" objection is so trifling to fix that it makes them sound like they're grasping at straws to raise this as a deal breaker to the whole submission.
I did not draw any conclusion. If Apple fixes the suggested design to be in line with ETSI's regulations, then and only then we can draw conclusions. In the absence of knowledge how Nokia would have acted had Apple's suggestion been compliant, any judgments are mere speculation.
I stand by that Nokia should be given the benefit of the doubt.
I did not draw any conclusion. If Apple fixes the suggested design to be in line with ETSI's regulations, then and only then we can draw conclusions. In the absence of knowledge how Nokia would have acted had Apple's suggestion been compliant, any judgments are mere speculation.
I stand by that Nokia should be given the benefit of the doubt.
I'm saying that degree of benefit doubt is getting tenuous at best. Nokia's really going to completely back out because of 0.3mm because it has users' interests at heart? That's a big stretch. Going nuclear over a procedural matter? I've seen this before, it's called politics. That claim has all the markings of a red herring.
The IP claims have more weight, but polluting a good argument with a marginal one, to me, as well as not having a pin-compatible design, causes me to question their whole position.
You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.
Apple's innovation: use thinner plastic backing for the same chip, and cut away more of said plastic. Use same chip.
Not that valuable of an IP position in my book.
Nokia and the others have spent billions improving the SIM cards we all use today
the SIM card does not constitute billions in investments, and has been sufficiently marginalized over the years that its value has dropped dramatically: Carrier locking, SIM restrictions, etc.
If the sim was still a proper standard, you could use an iPhone sim in an iPad.
I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?
Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.
So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".
Your argument is weak, Apple supports other eBook formats other than it's own. As for Facetime, do you really think any of the major players would be interested in using Apple's standard over there own? Facetime is already available on all major devices except Windows and Microsoft owns Skype...
On the other hand, would Apple have any benefit to paying to use Skype's standards?
I don't think Apple reneged on opening Facetime, I think rather than no one is interested.
I suspect that Nokia's actions will come under review for being anti-competitive. They had better be right about their technical objections because FRAND agreements don't provide for licensing to everyone but those you don't like. They are FRAND because the company agreed to release the patents to all under fair, non-discriminatory terms: i.e., to everyone that can pay a fair fee, no matter the use.
I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?
Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.
So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".
Eh, what garbage are you blethering? Apple created a tool to make textbooks for the iPad only, not for any other manufacturers platform. They have added in features which are not available anywhere else anyway, so whats your beef???
I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?
Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.
So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".
Screwed the web? By introducing a free tool you can use to create iBooks? iBooks. Not generic ebooks. Use other tools if you want portability.
You're right. It's only evil when Apple wants to be paid for their IP, right?
The bolded part is important. Apple is offering a solution which minimizes the difficulty of the transition for everyone. Nokia's solution is proprietary.
In the end, though, this may be what it takes to force the carriers to get rid of SIMs. That would be a good thing in the end.
Everyone's solution is proprietary until it gets accepted by ETSI!
the SIM card does not constitute billions in investments, and has been sufficiently marginalized over the years that its value has dropped dramatically: Carrier locking, SIM restrictions, etc.
If the sim was still a proper standard, you could use an iPhone sim in an iPad.
The SIM is still the most standard approach that we have, and in 99% of devices that are not Apple. I can take a SIM out my (unlocked) phone and put it in a Nokia Booklet/most any 3G SIM enabled device and use my data plan, or a USB modem in a MacBook Air and use my data plan, Sony VAIO, etc etc all using the same SIM. I still have unlimited DATA from O2, why should I have to change that?
You're talking about your experience with (I assume) iPhone/iPad and US carriers. There isn't a more restrictive pairing out there mate, but it doesn't apply to everyone else. That's the gist of this argument.
For other parties to make a submission for a card that breaks pinout compatibility, that seems more suspicious to me, when each iteration kept compatibility.
The touted benefit of the Nokia design, is I believe, that it can be inserted in a slot, whereas Apple's design would need a tray.
Riiight. That's why they're not going to license their patents.
I was thinking the same thing. They are saying they won't play ball because they think that Apple's design doesn't fit the rules. But if it is adopted then isn't that the standards group, which made the rules, saying that it does.
I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?
So who tried to adopt FaceTime and was told by Apple they couldn't.
No one. So perhaps we haven't seen FaceTime outside of Apple because no one has shown an interest. Just like how some games would rather build their own connection network than use Game Center.
The touted benefit of the Nokia design, is I believe, that it can be inserted in a slot, whereas Apple's design would need a tray.
And where is that slot. Because if it is in the phone, under the battery, where cell phones often have their SIM how is that any less cumbersome than Apple's tray that opens up with a metal pin and doesn't require you opening the phone back.