Nokia to refuse licensing SIM patents if ETSI chooses Apple design

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Comments

  • 2 cents2 cents Posts: 307member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?



    Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.



    So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".



    Your argument fails on facts (see responses by ksec and adamc) and also because you chose to finish with an insult. So, that's a double fail. Just sayin'.
  • iamnemaniiamnemani Posts: 64member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?



    Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.



    So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".



    Apple did not enforce anything in eBooks. The "ePub" format existed before apple came out with iBooks, and it was selected by the publishers as the format of choice. Apple just implemented it on their devices.
  • macarenamacarena Posts: 323member
    "Apple's proprietary solution" - indeed. Nokia should know that Apples idea is pin compatible with both SIM and MicroSIM. So simple physical adapters are all it takes to convert a nanoSIM to Micro or regular SIM.



    The point is not about violating ETSI's tech specs. That is just wool over our eyes. The real issue is when Nokia says Apple is devaluing others IP! That is the true reason.



    This is a master stroke by Apple. They have nothing to lose - worst case status quo as far as patent royalties are concerned. But Nokia just damaged its credibility as a responsible player in the global standards arena. Threatening to stop licensing IP if your solution is not picked is nothing but arm twisting.



    I really hope ETSI responds to this strongly. By screwing Nokia right back and changing the standard to completely avoid using Nokia patents. That is the sort I response that will keep everyone honest.
  • emulatoremulator Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ascii View Post


    It reminds me of people arguing over Blu Ray vs HD DVD when digital downloads are going to take over soon anyway.



    If low bitrate and overcompressed stereo sound is your thing. that future is already here.
  • drdoppiodrdoppio Posts: 1,132member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tyler82 View Post


    Nokia lost its relevance in 2001.



    No, Nokia lost its relevance in 2010 when they hired Elop.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ksec View Post


    There are areas beyond Apple's control to open up Facebook. So no...



    Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macarena View Post


    ...



    The point is not about violating ETSI's tech specs. That is just wool over our eyes. The real issue is when Nokia says Apple is devaluing others IP! That is the true reason.



    ...



    This may very well be the case. Ideally, Apple would propose a standard that doesn't violate ETSI's tech specs, and then Nokia will not have this excuse to object to Apple's standard. Simple.
  • f1ferrarif1ferrari Posts: 223member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macarena View Post


    I really hope ETSI responds to this strongly. By screwing Nokia right back and changing the standard to completely avoid using Nokia patents. That is the sort I response that will keep everyone honest.



    Unfortunately, this type of action rarely ever happens. It would serve Nokia right after making such a threat, but they probably have the leverage to actually tip the scales in their favor.
  • granmastakgranmastak Posts: 298member
    Desperate measures by a desperate company. After their sales figures are released their stock will drop, Apple should buy them for 15 bil or so and sell them off piece by piece while keeping anything of value.
  • monstrositymonstrosity Posts: 2,075member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.





    Oh hardly, Apple are saints by comparison to most companies.
  • richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    Nokia will win this battle. Organisations like ETSI are filled with their friends. It's an old boys club.
  • mightymikemightymike Posts: 49member
    Nokia is RIMing away. Nokia has an operating loss of over one billion euros in 2011. They are still a large multinational valued at 25 billion euros but the competitive pressure from Apple is clearly shrinking their market share. Nokia can see the writing on the wall and must fundamentally change if they want to remain in business, like Apple did a decade ago.



    It's the same story, companies that can't compete try to stop the advance of innovation from steamrolling over them by throwing in a wrench in the gears of technical progress. Even Microsoft has realized (albeit too late) that they must innovate in order to survive, so how can Nokia possibly survive by using MS's old tactics?



    It's sad when any company goes out of business but Apple wouldn't be here today if it had not been on the verge of bankruptcy a decade ago. Only companies that can step up to the plate and innovate can compete with Apple and thrive. Nokia is, unfortunately, not one of them.
  • jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


    Apple is only eschewing royalties IF everyone else with relevant IP agrees to do the same.



    Please explain why wanting royalties for your IP is acting like a spoiled kid?



    You're right. It's only evil when Apple wants to be paid for their IP, right?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macarena View Post


    "Apple's proprietary solution" - indeed. Nokia should know that Apples idea is pin compatible with both SIM and MicroSIM. So simple physical adapters are all it takes to convert a nanoSIM to Micro or regular SIM.



    The point is not about violating ETSI's tech specs. That is just wool over our eyes. The real issue is when Nokia says Apple is devaluing others IP! That is the true reason.



    This is a master stroke by Apple. They have nothing to lose - worst case status quo as far as patent royalties are concerned. But Nokia just damaged its credibility as a responsible player in the global standards arena. Threatening to stop licensing IP if your solution is not picked is nothing but arm twisting.



    I really hope ETSI responds to this strongly. By screwing Nokia right back and changing the standard to completely avoid using Nokia patents. That is the sort I response that will keep everyone honest.



    The bolded part is important. Apple is offering a solution which minimizes the difficulty of the transition for everyone. Nokia's solution is proprietary.



    In the end, though, this may be what it takes to force the carriers to get rid of SIMs. That would be a good thing in the end.
  • digitalclipsdigitalclips Posts: 15,308member
    This isn't a topic I know much about so I ask this ... is there a point at which Apple simply develop their own anyway and and offer the use of the design and IP royalty free to anyone else that wishes to use their design? There would be incompatibility out there I realize but only for those that didn't use the new design such as Nokia.
  • radjinradjin Posts: 165member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


    I am not entirely sure what is going on, but here is what it seems like from the scant information and doing a lot of reading between the lines.



    Nokia hold a shed load of patents essential for any SIM. They quite rightly want to garner income from those patents included in any new SIM design that incorporates them.



    Apple doesn't want Nokia to have those royalties, so we have this piece of nonsense:







    So Apple's proposal would see Nokia denied royalties, on the one hand or on the other, Nokia would get it's royalties but so would Apple, meaning Apple would get to use the new SIM design essentially for free, because what it had to pay Nokia, Nokia and others would also have to pay Apple.



    It is a brilliant con on Apples part. If Nokia is to be believed they have no real IP to offer, but if their design proposal is accepted, they either don't have to pay Nokia for their IP or they themselves get paid for stuff all.



    A brilliant ruse if it pays off.



    You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.
  • jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,933member
    In the last discussion, I was beginning to think Nokia probably had some worthy points, but this is starting to get tenuous at best. Is there a link to better information about what is proprietary in Apple's nano SIM?



    Nokia's and RIM's submissions appear to be more proprietary and might not offer any backward compatibility at all, the physical pinout changes drastically. To fix the alleged problem with Apple's submission, I think Apple only needs to change a single offending physical dimension either way, to 12mm or 13mm to reduce the possibility of jamming - a change that I don't think will have an impact on the underlying electronics or signalling.
  • jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,933member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?



    Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.



    So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".





    Apple's suggested nano SIM is pin-for-pin backward compatible with the existing standard. Nokia's is not to the slightest degree. Why are you siding against Apple in this case? Why do you want Nokia to screw with the standard?
  • mrstepmrstep Posts: 446member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


    Riiight. That's why they're not going to license their patents.



    ""We believe that Apple is mis-using the standardization process, seeking to impose its own proprietary solution on the industry and using ETSI merely to rubber stamp its proposal, rather than following established principles and practices."



    Hmmm, wouldn't be proprietary if it's made a standard either.
  • technotechno Posts: 585member
    "If you choose that guy, you can't use my ball. Whaaaa whaaaa whaaa"
  • drdoppiodrdoppio Posts: 1,132member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    ... To fix the alleged problem with Apple's submission, I think Apple only needs to change a single offending physical dimension either way, to 12mm or 13mm to reduce the possibility of jamming - a change that I don't think will have an impact on the underlying electronics or signalling.



    Exactly. If Apple does that, Nokia's motifs will become obvious. Right now, they aren't, and Nokia is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
  • bullheadbullhead Posts: 492member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post


    I've been working with iBooks Author for a while. Apple screwed the Web by enforcing a thing that is an eBook, but not quite. Remember Facetime: "we will open it soon"?



    Apple recently has shown a nasty tendency to play the Microsoft game of following and participating in standards and then knife the standards body in the back with its corporate salespower.



    So maybe the "2cent world" agrees with you, but certainly not "The World".



    Care to back up your rant with some facts? What standards body did Apple participate in and then knife in the back? Microsofts track record on this is very clear. Ever hear of ISO and the MSOOXML debacle?
  • caliminiuscaliminius Posts: 944member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Radjin View Post


    You missed your own point; Apple is getting no royalties on this patent so the only gain is paying less for old patent technology. Nokia like any company in decline has stopped innovating and started using their assets to try and save a floundering company.



    No, Apple is trying to get a free lunch out of this. What Nokia is saying is that Apple has no essential IP outside of their own design whereas Nokia has essential IP regardless of what design is chosen. So Nokia would end up losing income and Apple gets something for free. Thus, Nokia's valid complaint about Apple attempting to devalue other's IP.
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