Reality is I know my next Mac wil be iMac...shame really but will not go back to Windows
Are you using a matte display now? If so, you don't mind the glossy screen on an iMac?
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank
I think Apple is going to produce the MacPro line since there are a lot of professionals in the audio and video production that have been clamoring for it and they won't abandon them since that is a big enough market for them to continue. They also have users buying the MacPro for low cost server applications. I personally think that they might actually change the form factor, which they should have done years ago. I think they should have made it a rack mounted unit as optional or standard where they just simply make it to be used sideways.
I really hope the MP stays as well. I don't really need all the power, but at least I get to look at the matte 30'' ACD. Could've done that with a Mini, but then all my HDD would need to be external, which I don't like. Clean desk policy - also at home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55
Waiting for a new Mac Pro or Mac Pro replacement stopped being fun for me 6 months ago. I just wish they'd do something already.
If you wait for the latest and greatest, you'll end up never buying a replacement. You want a Mac Pro, buy it. Now, before they go out of stock. Like the article said. Although, still available in the UK (Amazon link one, twoor a used G5 for £ 175)
Quote:
Originally Posted by loveandcapture
It's disheartening to hear about the Mac Pro possibly going bye-bye... I bought the most recent model in late 2010, and it's been a total dream (video editor/musician here).
Even just FCPX has certain features that, if Apple really wants to shine, will need a Mac Pro's power to fully deliver (you're going to edit 64 streams of multicam, 1080p or 2k video on an iMac?? come on...). Apple KNOWS what its expectations are for the machine, and while we think the numbers are small, that might be just fine in line with what they're willing to produce.
There's nothing wrong with it per se. But iOS development is very iterative: often you make a small change, fire up the simulator, test it out, make another small change, etc. Perhaps more so than other development (such as server side) due to the desire to get the GUI perfect in iOS apps.
If that cycle can be sped up by just a few seconds each time it could make a big difference to how many times the developer tweaks a particular feature before getting fed up and deciding it's "good enough." Multiply that by a thousand developers making a thousand apps and the overall quality of iOS software could be effected by having the best available dev box a few seconds slower than it could have been.
I doubt the time saving is noticeable. You can max the processor, memory, and graphics of the 27" iMac and save lots of money over a Mac Pro. Ask developers and they will tell you for Xcode RAM is more important than processor speed. Furthermore, most graphics intensive iOS apps are better tested on iOS devices themselves.
The Mac Pro is best for graphics and animation designers where renderings usually takes hours. The rendering process can take advantage of parallel processing. The time saving can be big with the Mac Pro in this case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal
All these years I've been using an iMac for iOS development and I never got the memo.
Makes sense to get a MacPro for iOS dev work since an iMac doesn't have anywhere near the horsepower necessary to run an iOS ARM app in emulation right?? </sarcasm>
I think a Mac Pro station would come in handy not for iOS directly, but for those graphics-intensive iOS apps where you want to render the images on a fast system like a MacPro using photoshop. I can see that easily. For iOS/Xcode work though, any Mac is sufficient imho.
I am using i7 15" MBP for developing my app. It works great.
Goodbye optical drive. If I need you, I'll plug in a USB-based optical drive.
It's sad to see the Mac Pro on the way out. Back in the PowerMac days, a Mac tower (or desktop) computer case was fun to open up and upgrade. In this daya and age, though, portability and simplicity reign supreme. An iMac is definitely a sexier setup for those chained to their desks. A laptop is a must for everything else.
You have no way to know what is coming. As to the Mac Pro its time has come, done right a much smaller machine would be appealing enough for Apple to sell in volume.
Quote:
Let's face it, aside from some media professionals and a few hobbyists, no one opens their Mac except to possibly add RAM.. and these days that's done with a simply-removed panel that doesn't get you into the real case anyway.
BS! Servicing a hard drive is not unreasonably difficult. Your statement is actually pretty insulting, as it implies that people are too stupid to effectively work on their own hardware.
Actually, given the right software and enough RAM you can actually benefit significantly from more cores as a developer. Compilation can be easily spread across multiple cores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d-range
Just put lots of RAM and an SSD in RAM iMac and it will fly as a developer workstation, to the point you will have a very hard time noticing any difference with a 12 core Mac Pro. I did it a few weeks ago with my 2010 quad core i7 iMac, and I can only say the machine feels like something completely different for devlopment work. Compilation, debugging, starting the iOS simulator, it's all near instantaneous.
Mac OS loves RAM, no surprise here.
Quote:
Hardly surprising if you think about it, since almost all typical development tasks are decidedly I/O bound, so if you have a decent CPU (which all the current iMacs have), lots of RAM and a fast SSD (I used a Samsung 830), there is very little to gain by throwing more hardware and money at it by buying a Mac Pro. We've long passed the point that development work requires extreme high-end hardware.
This is just plain baloney. Many developers leverage all of those cores daily.
I'm tired of the Mac Mini and Mac Pro as the only 2 choices for a monitorless desktop or server. With all of the hardware design experience Apple has, they should be able to make a desktop/rack mount combo machine that is at most half the size of the current Mac Pro. If it's not a 50lb boat anchor that costs $3000+ for the base model, it would sell much better.
Quite agree. I just had a 2008 iMac graphics card burn out for which Apple will not accept that it was defect from the start. So now I have a perfectly good screen, drive etc etc but I have to replace the whole lot. So much for Green credentials!!! Got to face it Apple is no longer a PRO company, as is obvious by the last OS Lion. Sorry but you have got to be joking. The king is dead long live the king....
What you are the Global moderator and that is your response. Jesus.
Ok not GREEN because if Apple did a mid range PRO desktop ala monitor then maybe we wouldn't have to ditch the whole thing when it went bust.
Re the iMac that just went tits up. It was a top of the range at the time mid 2008 and which in the laptops which had the same graphics chip Apple admitted that there was an inherent defect. Nvidia have admitted that there was a general defect in all their versions of that chip.
Lion compared to Snow Leopard the advantages for a Pro were insignificant and if you don't see that then you are clearly not a PRO user.
What you are the Global moderator and that is your response. Jesus.
Either explain what that implies or don't bring it up.
Your post was so off-topic and far from reality that I figured I'd just rebut every point.
Quote:
Ok not GREEN
Again, what does this mean?
Quote:
?a mid range PRO desktop?
Isn't that a contradiction?
Quote:
?ala monitor then maybe we wouldn't have to ditch the whole thing when it went bust.
Ditch what whole thing? You have the iMac.
Quote:
It was a top of the range at the time mid 2008 and which in the laptops which had the same graphics chip Apple admitted that there was an inherent defect. Nvidia have admitted that there was a general defect in all their versions of that chip.
Okay, so you're entitled to a replacement. Take it to an Apple Store and have it fixed.
Quote:
Lion compared to Snow Leopard the advantages for a Pro were insignificant and if you don't see that then you are clearly not a PRO user.
You clearly don't understand what you're talking ABOUT. See, I can capitalize words, too.
Quote:
Rubber band scrolling for one....
Oh, no! What a non-"PRO" feature!
Quote:
Hiding system files two...
As a "PRO", do you find you need Library access on a daily basis?
Quote:
Bookmarks in Safari four...
Oh, no! Safari offers bookmarks! How un-"PRO" of Apple!
Quote:
etc etc
No, please keep going; you've yet to reach an actual valid point.
But if it makes losses, Apple is going to be merciless.
That is the concern re Pro users. Apple is in a situation in which it has never been before as the world's most valuable company. I am sure it is very tempting for it to chase ever higher profits and so may well lose sight of where it came from and stop supporting the long time base users. Unfortunately consumers can be very fickle and the whole thing could come crashing down and possibly far quicker than it went up.
It means the same as in the 1930's Germany people like you would have me sent to the concentration camps just because I happened to disagree...
Get over your nonsensical beliefs. Only a complete idiot (read: Nazis; you're right) would use his power like that.
You take issue with someone not agreeing with your post, and you're attacking the person instead of giving a rebuttal or answering my questions, which is certainly not an unreasonable request. Were I not a moderator, you'd make a holier-than-thou comment about my post count.
If you wish to remain paranoid that I'll "do something" to you for disagreeing, feel free. You'll be paranoid until the end of your days.
Also, you've automatically lost, I think. You invoked Godwin.
I said that because of the juvenile response of yours.
Rubber band scrolling.
1. Scrolling in the finder to the bottom, whoops bounce missed that link.
2. Text area box in a browser. Scrolling. Whoops just gone to the bottom of the page.
Bookmarks.
1. Adding a bookmark unlike in Firefox and Explorer etc I cannot add another bookmark folder or drag and drop existing bookmarks into different locations.
2. Adding Bookmarks in Safari has been terrible for a long time.
If you are going to be a moderator at least show some.
If you are going to be a moderator at least show some.
1. Objectivity
2. Understanding of the subject
You're not understanding what he's moderating on AI. He's a forum member just like you and me who was given additional right to help this board free of VIOLATIONS. Having an opinion is not a VIOLATION.
Specially, his duties — that he volunteers his time doing — is clean up spam from the site so we have to look at it.
Maybe it should say Spaminator under his name instead of Global Moderator but until he becomes Digital Jesus or he violates the very few rules of the forum then you have no soapbox on which to make your complaints.
1. Scrolling in the finder to the bottom, whoops bounce missed that link.
2. Text area box in a browser. Scrolling. Whoops just gone to the bottom of the page.
Having what to do with "PRO"s?
Quote:
Bookmarks.
1. Adding a bookmark unlike in Firefox and Explorer etc I cannot add another bookmark folder or drag and drop existing bookmarks into different locations.
2. Adding Bookmarks in Safari has been terrible for a long time.
Having what to do with "PRO"s?
Quote:
If you are going to be a moderator at least show some.
1. Objectivity
2. Understanding of the subject
Then tell this idiot (me) right here (me) what any of your points have to do with "PRO"s. Also what "GREEN" means.
You hate Lion because it changed things. You don't like change. Your hate is nowhere near objective. And I take issue with that, is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
You're not understanding what he's moderating on AI. He's a forum member just like you and me who was given additional right to help this board free of VIOLATIONS. Having an opinion is not a VIOLATION.
Specially, his duties — that he volunteers his time doing — is clean up spam from the site so we have to look at it.
Maybe it should say Spaminator under his name instead of Global Moderator but until he becomes Digital Jesus or he violates the very few rules of the forum then you have no soapbox on which to make your complaints.
Anymore I'm no different from other mods, it's just that because I choose to be in the discussion, I've abdicated my power to edit others' posts, delete them, give infractions, etc. It's all on the honor system. Same as melgross, I think.
It's discussion vs. moderation (punishment), and I choose discussion. And yet people still whine about how I'm "in the discussion" and how that's "unfair" because I'm a moderator.
I don't see people whining about melgross having 25k+ posts. He's in the discussion and he's a moderator. I don't see HIM abusing his power, and yet I'm the one that always gets the "THIS from a MODERATOR? " responses.
1. Adding a bookmark unlike in Firefox and Explorer etc I cannot add another bookmark folder or drag and drop existing bookmarks into different locations.
2. Adding Bookmarks in Safari has been terrible for a long time.
You can absolutely create folders of bookmarks and rearrange bookmarks to your hearts content. Perhaps this page can help you out.
Anymore I'm no different from other mods, it's just that because I choose to be in the discussion, I've abdicated my power to edit others' posts, delete them, give infractions, etc. It's all on the honor system. Same as melgross, I think.
It's discussion vs. moderation (punishment), and I choose discussion. And yet people still whine about how I'm "in the discussion" and how that's "unfair" because I'm a moderator.
I don't see people whining about melgross having 25k+ posts. He's in the discussion and he's a moderator. I don't see HIM abusing his power, and yet I'm the one that always gets the "THIS from a MODERATOR? " responses.
I think it's just sour grapes for many... or that huge AI paycheck you get.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. I learned how to write apps on an old-design Mac Mini, even. All Macs are easily powerful enough for any app development.
You can't slot in a more powerful graphics card (or 3). Graphics processing is probably the #1 segment of power users, not programmers (NB: I am a developer myself).
Comments
Yeah, that should work well. I'll just take Final Cut, Motion and Aperture "somewhere else." /s
Have you considered Linux?
See my earlier post above.
Reality is I know my next Mac wil be iMac...shame really but will not go back to Windows
Are you using a matte display now? If so, you don't mind the glossy screen on an iMac?
I think Apple is going to produce the MacPro line since there are a lot of professionals in the audio and video production that have been clamoring for it and they won't abandon them since that is a big enough market for them to continue. They also have users buying the MacPro for low cost server applications. I personally think that they might actually change the form factor, which they should have done years ago. I think they should have made it a rack mounted unit as optional or standard where they just simply make it to be used sideways.
I really hope the MP stays as well. I don't really need all the power, but at least I get to look at the matte 30'' ACD. Could've done that with a Mini, but then all my HDD would need to be external, which I don't like. Clean desk policy - also at home.
Waiting for a new Mac Pro or Mac Pro replacement stopped being fun for me 6 months ago. I just wish they'd do something already.
If you wait for the latest and greatest, you'll end up never buying a replacement. You want a Mac Pro, buy it. Now, before they go out of stock. Like the article said. Although, still available in the UK (Amazon link one, two or a used G5 for £ 175)
It's disheartening to hear about the Mac Pro possibly going bye-bye... I bought the most recent model in late 2010, and it's been a total dream (video editor/musician here).
Even just FCPX has certain features that, if Apple really wants to shine, will need a Mac Pro's power to fully deliver (you're going to edit 64 streams of multicam, 1080p or 2k video on an iMac?? come on...). Apple KNOWS what its expectations are for the machine, and while we think the numbers are small, that might be just fine in line with what they're willing to produce.
True words; fully agree.
There's nothing wrong with it per se. But iOS development is very iterative: often you make a small change, fire up the simulator, test it out, make another small change, etc. Perhaps more so than other development (such as server side) due to the desire to get the GUI perfect in iOS apps.
If that cycle can be sped up by just a few seconds each time it could make a big difference to how many times the developer tweaks a particular feature before getting fed up and deciding it's "good enough." Multiply that by a thousand developers making a thousand apps and the overall quality of iOS software could be effected by having the best available dev box a few seconds slower than it could have been.
I doubt the time saving is noticeable. You can max the processor, memory, and graphics of the 27" iMac and save lots of money over a Mac Pro. Ask developers and they will tell you for Xcode RAM is more important than processor speed. Furthermore, most graphics intensive iOS apps are better tested on iOS devices themselves.
The Mac Pro is best for graphics and animation designers where renderings usually takes hours. The rendering process can take advantage of parallel processing. The time saving can be big with the Mac Pro in this case.
All these years I've been using an iMac for iOS development and I never got the memo.
Makes sense to get a MacPro for iOS dev work since an iMac doesn't have anywhere near the horsepower necessary to run an iOS ARM app in emulation right?? </sarcasm>
I think a Mac Pro station would come in handy not for iOS directly, but for those graphics-intensive iOS apps where you want to render the images on a fast system like a MacPro using photoshop. I can see that easily. For iOS/Xcode work though, any Mac is sufficient imho.
I am using i7 15" MBP for developing my app. It works great.
Goodbye optical drive. If I need you, I'll plug in a USB-based optical drive.
It's sad to see the Mac Pro on the way out. Back in the PowerMac days, a Mac tower (or desktop) computer case was fun to open up and upgrade. In this daya and age, though, portability and simplicity reign supreme. An iMac is definitely a sexier setup for those chained to their desks. A laptop is a must for everything else.
You have no way to know what is coming. As to the Mac Pro its time has come, done right a much smaller machine would be appealing enough for Apple to sell in volume.
Let's face it, aside from some media professionals and a few hobbyists, no one opens their Mac except to possibly add RAM.. and these days that's done with a simply-removed panel that doesn't get you into the real case anyway.
BS! Servicing a hard drive is not unreasonably difficult. Your statement is actually pretty insulting, as it implies that people are too stupid to effectively work on their own hardware.
Just put lots of RAM and an SSD in RAM iMac and it will fly as a developer workstation, to the point you will have a very hard time noticing any difference with a 12 core Mac Pro. I did it a few weeks ago with my 2010 quad core i7 iMac, and I can only say the machine feels like something completely different for devlopment work. Compilation, debugging, starting the iOS simulator, it's all near instantaneous.
Mac OS loves RAM, no surprise here.
Hardly surprising if you think about it, since almost all typical development tasks are decidedly I/O bound, so if you have a decent CPU (which all the current iMacs have), lots of RAM and a fast SSD (I used a Samsung 830), there is very little to gain by throwing more hardware and money at it by buying a Mac Pro. We've long passed the point that development work requires extreme high-end hardware.
This is just plain baloney. Many developers leverage all of those cores daily.
I'm tired of the Mac Mini and Mac Pro as the only 2 choices for a monitorless desktop or server. With all of the hardware design experience Apple has, they should be able to make a desktop/rack mount combo machine that is at most half the size of the current Mac Pro. If it's not a 50lb boat anchor that costs $3000+ for the base model, it would sell much better.
Quite agree. I just had a 2008 iMac graphics card burn out for which Apple will not accept that it was defect from the start. So now I have a perfectly good screen, drive etc etc but I have to replace the whole lot. So much for Green credentials!!! Got to face it Apple is no longer a PRO company, as is obvious by the last OS Lion. Sorry but you have got to be joking. The king is dead long live the king....
Quite agree. I just had a 2008 iMac graphics card burn out for which Apple will not accept that it was defect from the start.
Was it?
So much for Green credentials!!!
What does that have to do with this?
Got to face it Apple is no longer a PRO company
No idea what this means. This is all I can find.
as is obvious by the last OS Lion.
OH! you're saying that Apple isn't for professionals anymore, I see. Come back when you have an actual argument.
Sorry but you have got to be joking.
Sorry but you have to be joking.
Ok not GREEN because if Apple did a mid range PRO desktop ala monitor then maybe we wouldn't have to ditch the whole thing when it went bust.
Re the iMac that just went tits up. It was a top of the range at the time mid 2008 and which in the laptops which had the same graphics chip Apple admitted that there was an inherent defect. Nvidia have admitted that there was a general defect in all their versions of that chip.
Lion compared to Snow Leopard the advantages for a Pro were insignificant and if you don't see that then you are clearly not a PRO user.
Re: Come back when you have an actual argument.
Rubber band scrolling for one....
Hiding system files two...
Still no tabbed browsing in the Finder three...
Bookmarks in Safari four...
Expose changes five....
etc etc
What you are the Global moderator and that is your response. Jesus.
Either explain what that implies or don't bring it up.
Your post was so off-topic and far from reality that I figured I'd just rebut every point.
Ok not GREEN
Again, what does this mean?
?a mid range PRO desktop?
Isn't that a contradiction?
?ala monitor then maybe we wouldn't have to ditch the whole thing when it went bust.
Ditch what whole thing? You have the iMac.
It was a top of the range at the time mid 2008 and which in the laptops which had the same graphics chip Apple admitted that there was an inherent defect. Nvidia have admitted that there was a general defect in all their versions of that chip.
Okay, so you're entitled to a replacement. Take it to an Apple Store and have it fixed.
Lion compared to Snow Leopard the advantages for a Pro were insignificant and if you don't see that then you are clearly not a PRO user.
You clearly don't understand what you're talking ABOUT. See, I can capitalize words, too.
Rubber band scrolling for one....
Oh, no! What a non-"PRO" feature!
Hiding system files two...
As a "PRO", do you find you need Library access on a daily basis?
Bookmarks in Safari four...
Oh, no! Safari offers bookmarks! How un-"PRO" of Apple!
etc etc
No, please keep going; you've yet to reach an actual valid point.
But if it makes losses, Apple is going to be merciless.
That is the concern re Pro users. Apple is in a situation in which it has never been before as the world's most valuable company. I am sure it is very tempting for it to chase ever higher profits and so may well lose sight of where it came from and stop supporting the long time base users. Unfortunately consumers can be very fickle and the whole thing could come crashing down and possibly far quicker than it went up.
Either explain what that implies or don't bring it up.
It means the same as in the 1930's Germany people like you would have me sent to the concentration camps just because I happened to disagree...
It means the same as in the 1930's Germany people like you would have me sent to the concentration camps just because I happened to disagree...
Get over your nonsensical beliefs. Only a complete idiot (read: Nazis; you're right) would use his power like that.
You take issue with someone not agreeing with your post, and you're attacking the person instead of giving a rebuttal or answering my questions, which is certainly not an unreasonable request. Were I not a moderator, you'd make a holier-than-thou comment about my post count.
If you wish to remain paranoid that I'll "do something" to you for disagreeing, feel free. You'll be paranoid until the end of your days.
Also, you've automatically lost, I think. You invoked Godwin.
Well, if neither the 13" nor the 13" Pro get a discreet GPU, I'll have to say goodbye to Macs.
Psssssttt.....
They already got rid of the discrete GPU in the last 13" revision.
Or maybe you really mean 'discreet' and you want the GPU to hide in the corner?
Rubber band scrolling.
1. Scrolling in the finder to the bottom, whoops bounce missed that link.
2. Text area box in a browser. Scrolling. Whoops just gone to the bottom of the page.
Bookmarks.
1. Adding a bookmark unlike in Firefox and Explorer etc I cannot add another bookmark folder or drag and drop existing bookmarks into different locations.
2. Adding Bookmarks in Safari has been terrible for a long time.
If you are going to be a moderator at least show some.
1. Objectivity
2. Understanding of the subject
If you are going to be a moderator at least show some.
1. Objectivity
2. Understanding of the subject
You're not understanding what he's moderating on AI. He's a forum member just like you and me who was given additional right to help this board free of VIOLATIONS. Having an opinion is not a VIOLATION.
Specially, his duties — that he volunteers his time doing — is clean up spam from the site so we have to look at it.
Maybe it should say Spaminator under his name instead of Global Moderator but until he becomes Digital Jesus or he violates the very few rules of the forum then you have no soapbox on which to make your complaints.
Rubber band scrolling.
1. Scrolling in the finder to the bottom, whoops bounce missed that link.
2. Text area box in a browser. Scrolling. Whoops just gone to the bottom of the page.
Having what to do with "PRO"s?
Bookmarks.
1. Adding a bookmark unlike in Firefox and Explorer etc I cannot add another bookmark folder or drag and drop existing bookmarks into different locations.
2. Adding Bookmarks in Safari has been terrible for a long time.
Having what to do with "PRO"s?
If you are going to be a moderator at least show some.
1. Objectivity
2. Understanding of the subject
Then tell this idiot (me) right here (me) what any of your points have to do with "PRO"s. Also what "GREEN" means.
You hate Lion because it changed things. You don't like change. Your hate is nowhere near objective. And I take issue with that, is all.
You're not understanding what he's moderating on AI. He's a forum member just like you and me who was given additional right to help this board free of VIOLATIONS. Having an opinion is not a VIOLATION.
Specially, his duties — that he volunteers his time doing — is clean up spam from the site so we have to look at it.
Maybe it should say Spaminator under his name instead of Global Moderator but until he becomes Digital Jesus or he violates the very few rules of the forum then you have no soapbox on which to make your complaints.
Anymore I'm no different from other mods, it's just that because I choose to be in the discussion, I've abdicated my power to edit others' posts, delete them, give infractions, etc. It's all on the honor system. Same as melgross, I think.
It's discussion vs. moderation (punishment), and I choose discussion. And yet people still whine about how I'm "in the discussion" and how that's "unfair" because I'm a moderator.
I don't see people whining about melgross having 25k+ posts. He's in the discussion and he's a moderator. I don't see HIM abusing his power, and yet I'm the one that always gets the "THIS from a MODERATOR?
Bookmarks.
1. Adding a bookmark unlike in Firefox and Explorer etc I cannot add another bookmark folder or drag and drop existing bookmarks into different locations.
2. Adding Bookmarks in Safari has been terrible for a long time.
You can absolutely create folders of bookmarks and rearrange bookmarks to your hearts content. Perhaps this page can help you out.
Anymore I'm no different from other mods, it's just that because I choose to be in the discussion, I've abdicated my power to edit others' posts, delete them, give infractions, etc. It's all on the honor system. Same as melgross, I think.
It's discussion vs. moderation (punishment), and I choose discussion. And yet people still whine about how I'm "in the discussion" and how that's "unfair" because I'm a moderator.
I don't see people whining about melgross having 25k+ posts. He's in the discussion and he's a moderator. I don't see HIM abusing his power, and yet I'm the one that always gets the "THIS from a MODERATOR?
I think it's just sour grapes for many... or that huge AI paycheck you get.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. I learned how to write apps on an old-design Mac Mini, even. All Macs are easily powerful enough for any app development.
You can't slot in a more powerful graphics card (or 3). Graphics processing is probably the #1 segment of power users, not programmers (NB: I am a developer myself).