Apple wants to make it easy for non-programmers to build iOS apps

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 97
    alienzedalienzed Posts: 393member
    It seems to be over the inventors' heads that making software is more than just knowing how to code, you truly need to know something about computers and how they work in order to make good software. The same goes for the web, so many people who blog think they can build websites, it's just not that simple.
  • Reply 42 of 97
    If you build the right way to do it , you can write some great apps. Multimedia fusion even has an IOS exporter already .Some of the games and apps you are using might have already been created with no programming.



    One example of a game made this way for IOS is pocket ninjas.
  • Reply 43 of 97
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,718member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kasakka View Post


    Oh god no. People with no design experience should not be let anywhere near application development. Often neither should the people with no idea about programming.



    As a tool, this could be nice for quickly making iOS UIs but in the hands of users with no eye for design this will just result in the app store being flooded with subpar crap on top of the subpar crap already in it.



    Just look at MySpace and see what customization capability did to that.



    I hear you. Apple do usually provide a lot of pre designed templates in their creation tools to at least make stuff that looks half way decent.
  • Reply 44 of 97
    macinthe408macinthe408 Posts: 1,050member
    So this is saying that I could've gotten rich by building my own fart app?
  • Reply 45 of 97
    msimpsonmsimpson Posts: 452member
    Having the ability to build quick and simple front-ends to hosted server apps or data would be very useful to companies. This needs hooks to access data stored on servers or in iCloud, including data shared by groups of users, not just a individuals. iCloud could also act as a method to host/distribute these apps to groups.



    The type of apps this would be useful for are simple data sharing and distribution apps, not heavy computation or customized user interfaces and games. A company might use it to push out information to users, such as a library of product information or other internal docs. User input would be minimal and simplified. The ability to "mashup" data from various hosted sources and present them to users would be key.
  • Reply 46 of 97
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post


    sooooo anyone see how ridiculous this is?



    Now I see it as just another web development tool. That is if I understand this correctly in that the tool develops web pages.



    However if they think the average business person could ever do anything constructive with this tool I have to wonder. If it works at all it will be with mid level technical people that don't have the time to do real apps yet have projects that don't justify a massive project and the corresponding costs.



    There are more than a few people pressed for time that might be able to produce something useful. Maybe not the type of apps you would present to customers but apps none the less.
  • Reply 47 of 97
    What this looks like to me is the reflection behind app storyboarding, as introduced with iOS 5 and Xcode 4.2. Programming is far from being eliminated, but more elements could well be automated as the concept evolves.



    http://developer.apple.com/library/i...roduction.html
  • Reply 48 of 97
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MACT View Post


    Something on the order of HyperCard, in terms of programming complexity, would offer a nice intermediate approach that a lot of people could use without having learn too much about what is ?under the hood?



    This is my thought, a tool for internal apps you want no one else to see. These sorts of tools are great but unfortunately are often under appreciated by the likes of Apple because they don't see successful apps out in the wild.



    Honestly this makes me wonder if this is a DashCode replacement. The web focus makes me think this may be so. It might not be a bad idea if the libs give high level access to SQLlite data bases and other OS features. It would be especially nice if the app came with a high level bar code reading lib that works in conjunction with the on board camera. Given these two features I could see many quickly developed apps for internal usage.
  • Reply 49 of 97
    d-ranged-range Posts: 396member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Filmantopia View Post


    I'm implying that it's a little silly to dismiss Apple's ability to create something successful in this area. Apple can't make a great filmmaker or musician out of the non-talented, but it can enable those who aren't technically advanced to do something pretty decent.



    Ok allow me to rephrase then: I think it's a bad idea Apple is wasting resources on this, not because I think they are unable to execute the idea better than everyone before them, but because I think the idea is fundamentally flawed in the first place. If all you need is a glorified storyboarding tool, you don't have to wait for Apple, we've had that for years. I remember ObjectVision from the Windows 3.1 era, it basically tried the exact same idea 20 years ago. Many others followed, but the idea still went nowhere. Google App Inventor is basically the same thing as ObjectVision, just a lot fancier.



    The probem is that you cannot create complex things involving abstract logic, without investing the time to learn the tools that allow you to actually express those things. Anything that tries to relieve the 'programmer' from dealing what is basically the essence of programming -abstract logic- will inevitably end up as either too restricted to achieve anything useful, or too complex to fulfill its purpose. Somewhere in the middle of this road sits Flash: easy enough for the most basic prototyping for non-programmers, but far too complex if you want to mke anything half-way decent with it. The amount of crap made by people without a programming background, who got a little carried away by the deceptive easiness of the tool and started to explore the complex world of serious ActionScript development should serve well as an example of the problems with 'development tools for the masses'.



    Quote:

    I'm a filmmaker, and the idea of making an app that ties into my web series is a pretty exciting prospect. Doesnt seem like something that would require a ton of coding wizardry, just some moderate logistical and aesthetic control.



    I'm not debating the exciting prospect of a tool that makes it so easy to create real applications, I'm just saying the idea is fundamentally flawed and self-contradictory. I can understand you would love to be able to create simple applications without having to program, just like I would love to be able to shoot and edit professional videos without having to learn anything about how to set up a scene, how to use a professional camera, or how to write an engaging story.



    Just don't get your hopes up, that's all I'm saying. Unless you are aiming for ridiculously trivial stuff (which you could already do today), or generic 13-a-dozen crap, you will have to invest in learning how to write computer programs the hard way. There is no substitute.
  • Reply 50 of 97
    sockrolidsockrolid Posts: 2,789member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    [...] I'm not seeing this for anything remotely complex, but to give users app widgets. Simple utilities that they can personalize themselves or download themselves. [...]



    Agree. We might see widgets in iOS 6. Or not. A tiny minority of iOS users wants them for some reason.
  • Reply 51 of 97
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by knightlie View Post


    Last time I saw anthing like this it was a tool called Matrix Layout back in the 90s, and it was utter junk. If anyone can make this work Apple can, but as a programmer I've yet to be convinced that these types of tools can do much more than create photo albums and very simple, generic apps.



    I'm trying to relate this to something current and my best guess is that this is a DashCode replacement. If beefed up significantly it could find use as a tool to build those utility apps that companies often find hard to justify the time and expense to do a proper app.

    Quote:



    Exactly. You can't write business logic with icons.



    No you can't but there is more than iCons to this App. The problem I find with iOS devices though is that business solutions often require I/O to the real world. With iOS hardware there is a big brick wall between the device and the real world.



    For example at work we still make use of a time app written BASIC years ago to configure printers. Not VisualBASIC mind you but the really old basic from back in the DOS days. The thing is it works and nobody has time to write a modern app for such a simple chore. This is the type of business appilcation (use) something like this might be useful for.



    The problem is of course that I/O brick wall. Even though Apple is selling a lot of "I" devices to business I still don't think they get it. The simple realities of physical I/O as in USB, and file transfer make the machines far less useful than the could be. What Apple needs is a $20, 30 pin to RS232 adapter that doesn't require kissing ass to make use of the adapter. Though honestly I would rather have a standard USB port where I could plug in such adapters and memory sticks. With the memory sticks you would need the ability to read from that stick.



    Why? Because I can walk up to a tool, such as a Plasma etcher, and pull data off it only via a USB stick. It would be very nice to have an app that could analyze that data in the field. As you can see this isn't something anybody is likely to dedicate time to and in fact is where one would often use tools like Numbers, Excel, or even MSAccess. As it is now trying to use something like an iPad for this is just to painful to even describe though it could be the ideal tool. The problem is even if this tool comes to the light of day, it won't be at all useful for these sorts of business needs no matter how well the software itself is done. The reason of course is that the hardware blocks you from this sort of thing.
  • Reply 52 of 97
    shaun, ukshaun, uk Posts: 1,050member
    Seems like a lot of snobbery from professional programmers going on in this thread. I think this patent is a great idea. I would love to build a basic app for a local community project I'm involved with but I just don't have the time or energy to learn programming. There is no reason why creating an iOS app shouldn't be just as easy as creating a good website is these days with all the great software out there. No reason at all.
  • Reply 53 of 97
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by auxio View Post


    I think it makes more sense to create something like this for educational purposes, not commercial app development. Something like Smalltalk Scratch.



    I fail to see the educational value as it glosses over programming and web technologies. The biggest potential in my mind is for internal commercial "Apps" and for the distribution of catalogs and technical info to customers.

    Quote:



    I've never really understood the need for apps which are just repackaged versions of a company website. Just make a mobile version of your website.



    Or at least part of your web site. It effectively deals with the bandwidth and data usage charges. The bandwidth problem is quickly going away, but I doubt we will ever see an end to data caps. Thus it can be very advantageous for a company to be able to put catalogs and technical data on a customers "I" device. This doesn't even get into the not always having a data connection issue.



    Frankly I got a couple of Apps on my iPad right now that are either catalogs or technical documentation. I believe these are native Apps though I'm not sure. The thing is in one case the App works far better than the web interface the company has.
  • Reply 54 of 97
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AbsoluteDesignz View Post


    sooooo anyone see how ridiculous this is?



    It's not ridiculous at all.



    So long as those of us that know code can still use it. And the code it produces isn't as bad as iWeb output. That was some ugly code. And bloated.
  • Reply 55 of 97
    d-ranged-range Posts: 396member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post


    Seems like a lot of snobbery from professional programmers going on in this thread. I think this patent is a great idea. I would love to build a basic app for a local community project I'm involved with but I just don't have the time or energy to learn programming. There is no reason why creating an iOS app shouldn't be just as easy as creating a good website is these days with all the great software out there. No reason at all.



    Right. So if I understand correctly you are basically saying the abominations people who know nothing about web technology create, serve as a good example why creating iOS applications should be as simple as dicking around in FrontPage pretending you know how to build a good website?



    With statements like this you'll be sure to trigger the web developer snobs and the web designer snobs as well, just like the professional programmer snobs posting in this topic. They're all the same, thinking they took an education and years of experience to do stuff anyone could do with just a few better tools. I mean, we've only been trying to make software development easy for a measly 40 years or something



    Now if you excuse me, I'm off to continue working on my DIY neurosurgery kit, it's about time anyone can do brain surgery. No reason it shouldn't be as easy as clicking together a website. No reason at all.
  • Reply 56 of 97
    dsectdsect Posts: 25member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ecs View Post


    Anyway, the thing I most dislike from this announcement is Java. Please don't force the iPhone to crawl and waste battery running Java libs. Android tried to drive into a world of everything-Java, and they failed (they had to release a native SDK, because that's what the world needs).



    Please Apple, if some developer wants to use Java, allow him to do so, but don't drive us into a Java platform. Please don't. We just want XCode and gcc.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by z3r0 View Post


    How about moving away from objective c? It's a funky language. I wouldn't mind C# on LLVM/Clang with the Cocoa framework. The C# language is good but .Net is garbage.



    Dynamic languages like Perl 6, Python, PHP etc... that compile to LLVM byte code and can utilize Cocoa would be great too. Haxe is picking up steam too.



    They mentioned JavaScript, not java. But I agree with ecs (except: don't allow java!) and strongly disagree with z3r0. Keep byte-code and interpreted languages off of iOS platforms. Java and other non-compiled-to-object-code languages are CPU-hogs and battery-killers. You may like how it looks when you're coding it, but your iPhone or iPad would choke and nearly die. This is the main reason why android devices will never have the battery-life or stability that iOS devices enjoy.
  • Reply 57 of 97
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by d-range View Post


    Ok allow me to rephrase then: I think it's a bad idea Apple is wasting resources on this, not because I think they are unable to execute the idea better than everyone before them, but because I think the idea is fundamentally flawed in the first place.



    Why don't you say what you really mean



    You are a REAL software programmer that had to learn how to write everything by hand and in your opinion that is THE only way to write anything. Anything created any other way is utter crap. How dare Appke turn their backs on the right of doing things by encouraging people to not learn how write code by hand like you had to.



    I bet you had to walk 5 kilometers to school every day in the snow, with no shoes. And uphill both ways.
  • Reply 58 of 97
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    That's not always a bad thing. The Yelp app, particularly on iPad, is much nicer than the Yelp web site, even though its mostly just repackaging the website content. The real problem, I think, are apps that are nothing more than a UIWebView displaying the web site... what's the point.



    For example I see AlienBlue as a far better way to access Reddit than the web site. Somebody was kind enough to repackage Pythons documentation site as an app and that works really well. I actuall have at least one companies app that does a better job of presenting catalog info than their web site. Done right these sorts of apps can save you time and bandwidth/data accumulation.



    Now there are many apps that repackage web sites in such a way that the App is worthless. Arstechnica comes to mind here. There have been others that make me wonder why bother but the point is people shouldn't damn the idea for a few bad apples.



    As to your question ? what's the point, why do people download PDFs when they can go search the net for that document in the future? There are many reasons but not having to search for it is one, the need for a specific revision is another, the desire to annotate is common and there are many others. In some cases having a local copy of a sight can be just as useful as having a local copy of a PDF. I know of at least a couple of companies that have the only documentation for their products as a web site. On a Mac you might use wget or another tool to download that documentation. So a company offering up its web site as an app is really just offering an alternative.
  • Reply 59 of 97
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,217member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by d-range View Post


    Right. So if I understand correctly you are basically saying the abominations people who know nothing about web technology create, serve as a good example why creating iOS applications should be as simple as dicking around in FrontPage pretending you know how to build a good website?




    You are bashing a tool as bad based on some people that haven't used it well. Yes that makes you a snob.



    Next you will bash stoves because Some people can't cook well



    [/QUOTE]
  • Reply 60 of 97
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    i don't think he's arguing that a native app can't be more useful and refined than a web-based site, only that it's annoying that every time you access the site from iOS you get a JS layover that wants to tell you about their App Store app. I've already clicked the 'x' on the overlay once so it shouldn't be reminding me every... single... time I access that site.



    For example, I don't want to use the IMDb app to access IMDb. I don't even like their mobile version for my iPhone. Unfortunately it's become so annoying that I no longer frequent IMDb as much as i used to. Not just on my iPhone, but also on my Mac as a result of collateral damage.



    I'd estimate that I use the IMDb app at least a couple of times a week. It is another app I consider more useful than the web site. I actually consider it to be well done.



    On the other hand I have to agree about the pop up wanting you to down load the sites app. It sucks royally. I see these all the time in various forums I visit, I've never even tried them out.
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