Apple takes fight to Google, wants Android source code in Samsung lawsuit
The week has seen new turns in Apple's ongoing patent-based struggle against Google's Android operating system, as the iPhone maker attempted to pull the search giant deeper into the proceedings in one case while trying to keep Google out of the mix in another.
Apple on Wednesday asked U.S. Magistrate Judge Paul. S. Grewal to force Google to hand over information on the code powering Android, as reported by Bloomberg. Apple says that the information is necessary, given that Samsung ? the defendant in the case ? makes devices that run Google's operating system. According to Apple, Google has been less than forthcoming in turning over court-ordered information on Android.
"It's a question of transparency," said Apple attorney Mark Lyon. "We have concerns that they're not doing a full search."
At issue is not only the court-ordered Android code, but also the means by which Google is going about searching for the code. Apple contends that Google should turn over a wider swath of code in order to ensure that any possibly infringing data is accessible in the trial. Google, though, holds Apple is overstepping its bounds in asking for such a wide berth.
Google lawyer Matthew Warren says that Apple made a "strategic decision" to leave Google out of its complaint against Samsung. Turning over the search terms Google is using to go through its code, Warren says, could lead to "future discovery that we don't think they're entitled to," giving Apple "ideas about how to proceed that they wouldn't have had."
The case in question is Apple's second patent suit against Samsung in the United States. The other case, the one in which Apple won a $1.05 billion verdict, also saw developments recently.
Tuesday saw Apple file a document in opposition (via CNN Money) to Google and other companies move to file an amicus brief in support of Samsung. Google, HTC, Rackspace Hosting, Red Hat, and SAP America would sign the brief, but Apple protests that Google's inclusion would be improper for the court to accept.
Amicus curiae briefs, Apple contends, are traditionally filed by impartial friends of the court. Google's role as the developer of the Android operating system that powers Samsung's devices, Apple says, gives it "a direct interest in the outcome of this appeal."
In much of Apple's legal struggle against Android handset manufacturers, Google has played a peripheral role. Apple has neglected to name Google as a defendant, preferring instead to seek damages from individual device makers. Despite the billion dollar verdict against Samsung, Apple has yet to see any money from the decision and, like most other smartphone manufacturers, has little to show for its years-long patent struggles.
Apple on Wednesday asked U.S. Magistrate Judge Paul. S. Grewal to force Google to hand over information on the code powering Android, as reported by Bloomberg. Apple says that the information is necessary, given that Samsung ? the defendant in the case ? makes devices that run Google's operating system. According to Apple, Google has been less than forthcoming in turning over court-ordered information on Android.
"It's a question of transparency," said Apple attorney Mark Lyon. "We have concerns that they're not doing a full search."
At issue is not only the court-ordered Android code, but also the means by which Google is going about searching for the code. Apple contends that Google should turn over a wider swath of code in order to ensure that any possibly infringing data is accessible in the trial. Google, though, holds Apple is overstepping its bounds in asking for such a wide berth.
Google lawyer Matthew Warren says that Apple made a "strategic decision" to leave Google out of its complaint against Samsung. Turning over the search terms Google is using to go through its code, Warren says, could lead to "future discovery that we don't think they're entitled to," giving Apple "ideas about how to proceed that they wouldn't have had."
The case in question is Apple's second patent suit against Samsung in the United States. The other case, the one in which Apple won a $1.05 billion verdict, also saw developments recently.
Tuesday saw Apple file a document in opposition (via CNN Money) to Google and other companies move to file an amicus brief in support of Samsung. Google, HTC, Rackspace Hosting, Red Hat, and SAP America would sign the brief, but Apple protests that Google's inclusion would be improper for the court to accept.
Amicus curiae briefs, Apple contends, are traditionally filed by impartial friends of the court. Google's role as the developer of the Android operating system that powers Samsung's devices, Apple says, gives it "a direct interest in the outcome of this appeal."
In much of Apple's legal struggle against Android handset manufacturers, Google has played a peripheral role. Apple has neglected to name Google as a defendant, preferring instead to seek damages from individual device makers. Despite the billion dollar verdict against Samsung, Apple has yet to see any money from the decision and, like most other smartphone manufacturers, has little to show for its years-long patent struggles.
Comments
Maybe apple wants the code to the core services.
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Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark
Pass the popcorn. Isn't Android open? Can't they just download the code? /s
Exactly. That's because only portions of Android are open, not everything. Googles keeps a firm grip on Android.
Android itself is open source. There are some closed aspects as you mention, primarily the hardware drivers and of course Google Play, which is a closed proprietary application and service. Apple could easily download the source code for Android (4.1 at this point in time) but in order for it to be admitted into evidence I believe it needs to be handed over to the court by Google themselves.
Edit: typo
I believe that is correct.
A solution to this would be to order them to hand it over to the court, and then a designated 3rd party will analyze the code and determine what from the Samsung phones is unique to Samsung and what is from Android. And then anything that isn't pertinent to the discussion will be excised. And all parties get the details about what was found so they can question, defend etc.
Seems fair that if Samsung is trying to use 'that's just part of Android' as a defense then Apple should get to see the data. As it sounds like Samsung is.
I have a feeling that Apple has downloaded the code and thus they know there are bits they haven't been given that apply. So this request could be part of a strategy. Once they have given Google and Samsung a change to properly pony up there might be a way in court where they can use the omissions against the companies.
Either you're in or you're out, there's no middle ground.
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Originally Posted by rob53
Interesting collection of lawsuits. Google is saying Apple shouldn't be able to gain access to their code because they chose not to include Google in the original suit while the second lawsuit Google is filing an amicus brief in support of Samsung against Apple.
Either you're in or you're out, there's no middle ground.
Exactly. Apple does not want to include Google in the lawsuit but wants them to produce documents as tho they are included. Hard to have it both ways. Apple should decide if they're in or out.
As far as filing an Amicus brief supporting Samsung, that not really what Google is doing. The brief would be arguing for Samsung's position on the appropriateness of injunctions when the offending IP is a small part of the finished product, and filed with a few other companies signatures on the brief.It's not from Google alone. It could just as easily be in support of Rackspace's position if they were the ones named in the suit.
... and of course Apple has told the court it's not appropriate for Google to be able to submit a brief. Again it gives the appearance of wanting it both ways, in if it serves Apple in one case and out if it does not in the other. Nothing wrong with that as every company wants what's in their best interests.
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy
Exactly. Apple does not want to include Google in the lawsuit but wants them to produce documents as tho they are included. Hard to have it both ways. Apple should decide if they're in or out.
That's opposite of what I'm saying. Yes, Apple is saying Google shouldn't be allowed to be part of the amicus brief if Samsung isn't willing to turn over their code. If Samsung agrees to turn over their code, then Apple should remove their objection to the amicus brief filing except for the fact Google is supplying the OS for Samsung so they aren't impartial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
Exactly. Apple does not want to include Google in the lawsuit but wants them to produce documents as tho they are included. Hard to have it both ways. Apple should decide if they're in or out.
Why? The offending products are ultimately Samsung's, so that's why the case was brought against them. However, to prove the offence, the underlying source code used by Samsung's products (licensed from Google) is needed. Hence why Google needs to provide that to the court and not Samsung. It's really not that complicated.
If Google started selling Android as an end product (rather than licensing it to others for free), then it would make sense for Apple to file a case against them. However, as it stands now, the end products are those of the Android licensees. Though I am surprised that they haven't filed a case yet against the Nexus line of phones and tablets if they're finding that the patent offences are indeed mostly in the Android codebase (and not Samsung's custom UI).
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Originally Posted by auxio
Why? The offending products are ultimately Samsung's, so that's why the case was brought against them. However, to prove the offence, the underlying source code used by Samsung's products (licensed from Google) is needed. Hence why Google needs to provide that to the court and not Samsung. It's really not that complicated.
Google feels they already complied, and documents have already been submitted per Apple's earlier requests. Apple now says that it's not enough and they want more, but the argument is that Apple is treating the new document requests as tho Google is a defendant and required to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
Google feels they already complied, and documents have already been submitted per Apple's earlier requests. Apple now says that it's not enough and they want more, but the argument is that Apple is treating the new document requests as tho Google is a defendant and required to do so.
Obviously I'm no expert in law and how to frame requests for relevant information. However, as someone with a deep interest and passion for technology, I strongly feel that if there are patent violations to be found in the Android source code, then they should be brought to light. If the information being requested is proprietary, then it should be covered by appropriate confidentiality/non-usage agreements before it's made part of the case.
If no such patent violations exist, then it should be a no-brainer for Google to provide whatever is needed in order to clear their name and help prevent future legal action against their licensees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio
Obviously I'm no expert in law and how to frame requests for relevant information. However, as someone with a deep interest and passion for technology, I strongly feel that if there are patent violations to be found in the Android source code, then they should be brought to light. If the information being requested is proprietary, then it should be covered by appropriate confidentiality/non-usage agreements before it's made part of the case.
If no such patent violations exist, then it should be a no-brainer for Google to provide whatever is needed in order to clear their name and help prevent future legal action against their licensees.
Why should Google be required to submit any documentation if they aren't being sued? If Apple feels it wants to go after Android itself then sue Google and let the discovery process do what it's intended to do. You wouldn't support Lodsys demanding iOS source-code to prove developers are using their IP in iOS apps would you? Heck I remember several posters here saying it wasn't fair for Samsung to demand iOS source-code in their Australia IP infringement lawsuit against Apple and Apple really was the defendant.
Android is completely open source. Anyone can download it here. http://source.android.com From this you can make a fully functioning device. Want the samsung specific builds they are availible here http://opensource.samsung.com/ Everything you need to build a fully functional samsung build.
This is purely a ploy to get Google on the record without directly confronting them.
To avoid this rabbit hole. Apps are not the OS. Google play, gmail, chrome are not android, they are apps. They can be updated without a system update, you can uninstall all of them and still have a functioning device. Apps are not Android
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Originally Posted by mstone
in order for it to be admitted into evidence I believe it needs to be handed over to the court by Google themselves.
That not how evidence collection works. You need to document and be able to explain to the court where and how it was obtained. It doesn't need to be handed over by a specific person. Publicly available information can be obtained and filed as such
I thought Android was "open"?
Good answers above though.
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Originally Posted by jungmark
Pass the popcorn. Isn't Android open? Can't they just download the code? /s
I don't think Apple knows what Open Source means so perhaps it is an education thing.
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
So it sounds as though Apple knows exactly what's in the source code…
They should; they wrote it!
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