True, if he were for real, we'd have to say he's missing some brain wiring, for example, the whole network of mirror neurons that even chimpanzees and other great apes have, that contributes to empathy in them and in humans.
If he were for real, I wpuld guess he was abused by his father or another older male. That produces the syndrome that Hitler and other sadistic fascist types suffer from, as Alice Miller showed in For Your Own Good.
If he were for real, he'd also serve as a case study for Wilhelm Reich, as in The Mass Psychology of Fascism. The average hate-fueled white racist in America, or the ultraorthodox settlement occupier in Palestine, or the neo-Nazi in Europe, everywhere the would-be dominant male feels himself to be under threat from the repressed righteous anger of "minorities," who of course are the majorities.
But he's not for real, in my opinion. He's just here to trash the forum and serve as an agent of destruction to the reputation of the only civilized Apple forum. Or formerly civilized.
I consider myself to be pretty knowledgable when it comes to history, and I'm going to be conservative and say that my historical knowledge probably exceeds that of 97-98% of the global population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
I have of course not forgotten that, though I prefer to call it enhanced interrogations, which I of course fully support.
I believe that "torture" has gotten a bad rap and has been the victim of leftist smear campaigns and misinformation. When they say that it's not effective, that is not true. I believe that's a lie, thought that's a topic for a different thread perhaps.
With your extensive knowledge of world history then, would you like to explain to everyone what Sayeed Qutb, who more or less founded the ideas behind modern jihadism, the results of which are such a scourge on the world - to wit ISIS, Boko Haram and their ilk - and Ayman Al-Zawahiri, head of al-Qaeda. Some common denominator which might explain their violent attitudes.
Interesting comments and debate regarding Snowden.
I guess if you believe that if the government breaks the law, it's not illegal, then you think Snowden is a traitor. Problem is, I don't think ANYONE here actually believes that. Yet so many here condemn Snowden for his actions.
By the way, if you believe that it's not up the the little guy to reveal the injustices perpetrated by his employer, then you must be a "shut the eff up and do your job!" kind of person. If this is what you believe, then who exactly do you expect will "come clean and do the right thing"? The powerful employer who has already CHOSEN to break the law and hopes no one will find out? Because without the little guy, there's no one else.
So Snowden revealed that the government knowingly broke its own laws and violated the freedoms so many of you claim to value so much. And you call him a rat, deserving of execution? Let's execute all the rats and see who is left to defend the freedom you value so much.
This is a very selective viewpoint you have, conveniently ignoring that Snowden disclosed far more than you are admitting to. There are very few people here who are condemning Snowden for revealing that the US government may be spying on American citizens, which is illegal if not done with the proper court order, warrants, etc. Many of us wish he would have gone about that revelation in another way, and some believe that the way he did it was illegal, but that’s not what upsets a lot of people.
The thing that upsets so many is that he also revealed a great deal of information about how the US spies on other countries and non-US citizens. You may not like it, but it is not illegal. And in many cases it is prudent. You can’t complain about “intelligence failures” to stop the 9/11 attacks, predict Benghazi, and other failures, and at the same time claim that spying on other countries and individuals is wrong.
So take everything that Snowden revealed about the US spying on Americans off the table. Declare him completely innocent of any wrong doing in that regard. You are still left with a significant amount of information that he released that has nothing to do with that. Information about activities and technology that is in no way unconstitutional. Can you share your view point on that release of information?
Let me give you a point of reference, the German Enigma machine during World War II. Let’s say a file clerk (the WWII equivalent of Snowden’s NSA job) working at Bletchley Park, where some of the work to crack the Enigma machine was done, decided to tell the world that the Allies were able to decrypt German communications, thus warning the Germans and allowing them to alter their method of communication.
Would you consider that person a traitor?
You can’t just look at Snowden’s actions as alerting Americans to illegal spying on US citizens and ignore the rest. If you do, you are as much of a fool as those calling for his assassination.
[Oh, and before you say the Enigma machine was different because that was a tool only used by evil doers, the Enigma machine was a commercial product before WWII and before Nazi Germany began using it for their own purposes. The efforts to break the encryption would also apply to those other users. Just like an iPhone could be used by both the good guys and the bad guys.]
I know that you probably imagine me sitting here posting with a KKK hoodie on, while I'm typing, but that couldn't be further from the truth." src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
I have no desire at all to ever become a teacher, but I think that I would make a great history teacher to kids, if I had to. I am all about facts, and the kids would learn history via an unfiltered lens, in other words, the truth, without any historical distortions, lies, or politically correct omissions of facts and events.
The global history of slavery is a whole lot more than just what took place in the US.
Most of history has been placed in the dump and a considerable amount of what we have left is historical distortions and lies.
There is no such thing as truth. This forum is a microcosm of real world history... the truth is bent by both sides to make a point. Facts mean nothing. The truth? You couldn't handle the truth!!
I believe in American supremacy and I believe that our culture and values should be dominant across the entire planet. Not all cultures are created equally, and there are some that should be eliminated.
You, who supposedly knows about truth, justice and the American way... should know that there are many many areas where the US doesn't lead anymore... education and quality of life being two important ones.
One way you can always pick out the most obscene bias from the crowd is that it always claims to be fact, an unfiltered lens, and the untarnished truth.
This is a very selective viewpoint you have, conveniently ignoring that Snowden disclosed far more than you are admitting to. There are very few people here who are condemning Snowden for revealing that the US government may be spying on American citizens, which is illegal if not done with the proper court order, warrants, etc. Many of us wish he would have gone about that revelation in another way, and some believe that the way he did it was illegal, but that’s not what upsets a lot of people.
The thing that upsets so many is that he also revealed a great deal of information about how the US spies on other countries and non-US citizens. You may not like it, but it is not illegal. And in many cases it is prudent. You can’t complain about “intelligence failures” to stop the 9/11 attacks, predict Benghazi, and other failures, and at the same time claim that spying on other countries and individuals is wrong.
So take everything that Snowden revealed about the US spying on Americans off the table. Declare him completely innocent of any wrong doing in that regard. You are still left with a significant amount of information that he released that has nothing to do with that. Information about activities and technology that is in no way unconstitutional. Can you share your view point on that release of information?
Let me give you a point of reference, the German Enigma machine during World War II. Let’s say a file clerk (the WWII equivalent of Snowden’s NSA job) working at Bletchley Park, where some of the work to crack the Enigma machine was done, decided to tell the world that the Allies were able to decrypt German communications, thus warning the Germans and allowing them to alter their method of communication.
Would you consider that person a traitor?
You can’t just look at Snowden’s actions as alerting Americans to illegal spying on US citizens and ignore the rest. If you do, you are as much of a fool as those calling for his assassination.
[Oh, and before you say the Enigma machine was different because that was a tool only used by evil doers, the Enigma machine was a commercial product before WWII and before Nazi Germany began using it for their own purposes. The efforts to break the encryption would also apply to those other users. Just like an iPhone could be used by both the good guys and the bad guys.]
WWII was won has nothing to do with cracking of Enigma machine.
Clearly you hate America because you accept it as a foregone conclusion that Snowden is incapable of getting a fair trial here or even be heard by a jury. You have no basis in fact to make those assertions beyond a hatred of my country. Snowden is a coward. He's holed up in Russia because he knows he violated the terms of his confidentiality oath and he's afraid to face the consequences of his actions. He blew the cover off secret NSA operations in the name of what he considered to be a good cause. I say he made America less safe from terrorists and international criminals. All because he didn't like the fact that the NSA has the capability of spying on people. Let's forget the fact that spying is their whole purpose. We created the NSA to spy. We pay them to spy. We have FISA court oversight of NSA's spying. Some people say that FISA is nothing more than a rubber stamp. But we have it and we can strengthen it if necessary. We can debate it publicly without being thrown into prison for it, or worse.
Contrast that with the country Snowden ran away to. There's no oversight on Putin's FSB spy agency. Journalists who criticize his regime have a habit of dying young. His political opponents are imprisoned. Snowden is living in a country where democracy doesn't exist and the government has zero respect for personal privacy. If Snowden truly believes his cause is just, he should hop on a plane back to the U.S. and stand up for his principles like a man, instead of cowering under Putin's bed like a spineless wimp.
You're either suggesting that decades to life in supermax prison is a just punishment for principled civil disobedience or you're willfully ignoring the substance of my comment. It is not a matter of belief or patriotism in Snowden's ability to get a fair trail, it is a legal certainty that he cannot. According to experts who have written about it, the laws Snowden is charged under do not allow a defense other than trying to prove that the criminal act did not occur. "There is no whistleblower defense." He did intend to take classified information, so he will be found guilty, and would be sentenced within federal sentencing guidelines for basically the rest of his life.
The NSA was created to collected FOREIGN intelligence, with spying on Americans was expressly prohibited. Part of what Snowden has revealed is that they do in fact collect a lot of information about Americans, routinely and without meaningful oversight. You say "we can strengthen" safeguards and "debate it publicly" while apparently wanting to condemn the people, Snowden and others, who provided the only windows into these activities. If no secrets had been exposed by Snowden and previous whistleblowers like Drake and Kiriakou, there would be nothing to debate and Americans would be ignorant of the power the government is abusing.
Comments
Your history is excellent? Why does the US Congress pass the Chinese Exclusion Act?
I will answer your question quickly, but don't bother to ask me any more questions. I see that you still haven't answered mine.
It was passed mostly due to anti-immigrant and anti-Chinese sentiment at the time.
I will answer your question quickly, but don't bother to ask me any more questions. I see that you still haven't answered mine.
It was passed mostly due to anti-immigrant and anti-Chinese sentiment at the time.
US Congress passes Act due to sentiment with no reasoning? No wonder Congress is least trusted by the Americans.
True, if he were for real, we'd have to say he's missing some brain wiring, for example, the whole network of mirror neurons that even chimpanzees and other great apes have, that contributes to empathy in them and in humans.
If he were for real, I wpuld guess he was abused by his father or another older male. That produces the syndrome that Hitler and other sadistic fascist types suffer from, as Alice Miller showed in For Your Own Good.
If he were for real, he'd also serve as a case study for Wilhelm Reich, as in The Mass Psychology of Fascism. The average hate-fueled white racist in America, or the ultraorthodox settlement occupier in Palestine, or the neo-Nazi in Europe, everywhere the would-be dominant male feels himself to be under threat from the repressed righteous anger of "minorities," who of course are the majorities.
But he's not for real, in my opinion. He's just here to trash the forum and serve as an agent of destruction to the reputation of the only civilized Apple forum. Or formerly civilized.
I consider myself to be pretty knowledgable when it comes to history, and I'm going to be conservative and say that my historical knowledge probably exceeds that of 97-98% of the global population.
I have of course not forgotten that, though I prefer to call it enhanced interrogations, which I of course fully support.
I believe that "torture" has gotten a bad rap and has been the victim of leftist smear campaigns and misinformation. When they say that it's not effective, that is not true. I believe that's a lie, thought that's a topic for a different thread perhaps.
With your extensive knowledge of world history then, would you like to explain to everyone what Sayeed Qutb, who more or less founded the ideas behind modern jihadism, the results of which are such a scourge on the world - to wit ISIS, Boko Haram and their ilk - and Ayman Al-Zawahiri, head of al-Qaeda. Some common denominator which might explain their violent attitudes.
Interesting comments and debate regarding Snowden.
I guess if you believe that if the government breaks the law, it's not illegal, then you think Snowden is a traitor. Problem is, I don't think ANYONE here actually believes that. Yet so many here condemn Snowden for his actions.
By the way, if you believe that it's not up the the little guy to reveal the injustices perpetrated by his employer, then you must be a "shut the eff up and do your job!" kind of person. If this is what you believe, then who exactly do you expect will "come clean and do the right thing"? The powerful employer who has already CHOSEN to break the law and hopes no one will find out? Because without the little guy, there's no one else.
So Snowden revealed that the government knowingly broke its own laws and violated the freedoms so many of you claim to value so much. And you call him a rat, deserving of execution? Let's execute all the rats and see who is left to defend the freedom you value so much.
This is a very selective viewpoint you have, conveniently ignoring that Snowden disclosed far more than you are admitting to. There are very few people here who are condemning Snowden for revealing that the US government may be spying on American citizens, which is illegal if not done with the proper court order, warrants, etc. Many of us wish he would have gone about that revelation in another way, and some believe that the way he did it was illegal, but that’s not what upsets a lot of people.
The thing that upsets so many is that he also revealed a great deal of information about how the US spies on other countries and non-US citizens. You may not like it, but it is not illegal. And in many cases it is prudent. You can’t complain about “intelligence failures” to stop the 9/11 attacks, predict Benghazi, and other failures, and at the same time claim that spying on other countries and individuals is wrong.
So take everything that Snowden revealed about the US spying on Americans off the table. Declare him completely innocent of any wrong doing in that regard. You are still left with a significant amount of information that he released that has nothing to do with that. Information about activities and technology that is in no way unconstitutional. Can you share your view point on that release of information?
Let me give you a point of reference, the German Enigma machine during World War II. Let’s say a file clerk (the WWII equivalent of Snowden’s NSA job) working at Bletchley Park, where some of the work to crack the Enigma machine was done, decided to tell the world that the Allies were able to decrypt German communications, thus warning the Germans and allowing them to alter their method of communication.
Would you consider that person a traitor?
You can’t just look at Snowden’s actions as alerting Americans to illegal spying on US citizens and ignore the rest. If you do, you are as much of a fool as those calling for his assassination.
[Oh, and before you say the Enigma machine was different because that was a tool only used by evil doers, the Enigma machine was a commercial product before WWII and before Nazi Germany began using it for their own purposes. The efforts to break the encryption would also apply to those other users. Just like an iPhone could be used by both the good guys and the bad guys.]
I know that you probably imagine me sitting here posting with a KKK hoodie on, while I'm typing, but that couldn't be further from the truth.
I have no desire at all to ever become a teacher, but I think that I would make a great history teacher to kids, if I had to. I am all about facts, and the kids would learn history via an unfiltered lens, in other words, the truth, without any historical distortions, lies, or politically correct omissions of facts and events.
The global history of slavery is a whole lot more than just what took place in the US.
Most of history has been placed in the dump and a considerable amount of what we have left is historical distortions and lies.
There is no such thing as truth. This forum is a microcosm of real world history... the truth is bent by both sides to make a point. Facts mean nothing. The truth? You couldn't handle the truth!!
To the victor goes the spoils.
I believe in American supremacy and I believe that our culture and values should be dominant across the entire planet. Not all cultures are created equally, and there are some that should be eliminated.
You, who supposedly knows about truth, justice and the American way... should know that there are many many areas where the US doesn't lead anymore... education and quality of life being two important ones.
One way you can always pick out the most obscene bias from the crowd is that it always claims to be fact, an unfiltered lens, and the untarnished truth.
Actual truth doesn't plead its case so loudly.
This is a very selective viewpoint you have, conveniently ignoring that Snowden disclosed far more than you are admitting to. There are very few people here who are condemning Snowden for revealing that the US government may be spying on American citizens, which is illegal if not done with the proper court order, warrants, etc. Many of us wish he would have gone about that revelation in another way, and some believe that the way he did it was illegal, but that’s not what upsets a lot of people.
The thing that upsets so many is that he also revealed a great deal of information about how the US spies on other countries and non-US citizens. You may not like it, but it is not illegal. And in many cases it is prudent. You can’t complain about “intelligence failures” to stop the 9/11 attacks, predict Benghazi, and other failures, and at the same time claim that spying on other countries and individuals is wrong.
So take everything that Snowden revealed about the US spying on Americans off the table. Declare him completely innocent of any wrong doing in that regard. You are still left with a significant amount of information that he released that has nothing to do with that. Information about activities and technology that is in no way unconstitutional. Can you share your view point on that release of information?
Let me give you a point of reference, the German Enigma machine during World War II. Let’s say a file clerk (the WWII equivalent of Snowden’s NSA job) working at Bletchley Park, where some of the work to crack the Enigma machine was done, decided to tell the world that the Allies were able to decrypt German communications, thus warning the Germans and allowing them to alter their method of communication.
Would you consider that person a traitor?
You can’t just look at Snowden’s actions as alerting Americans to illegal spying on US citizens and ignore the rest. If you do, you are as much of a fool as those calling for his assassination.
[Oh, and before you say the Enigma machine was different because that was a tool only used by evil doers, the Enigma machine was a commercial product before WWII and before Nazi Germany began using it for their own purposes. The efforts to break the encryption would also apply to those other users. Just like an iPhone could be used by both the good guys and the bad guys.]
WWII was won has nothing to do with cracking of Enigma machine.
Clearly you hate America because you accept it as a foregone conclusion that Snowden is incapable of getting a fair trial here or even be heard by a jury. You have no basis in fact to make those assertions beyond a hatred of my country. Snowden is a coward. He's holed up in Russia because he knows he violated the terms of his confidentiality oath and he's afraid to face the consequences of his actions. He blew the cover off secret NSA operations in the name of what he considered to be a good cause. I say he made America less safe from terrorists and international criminals. All because he didn't like the fact that the NSA has the capability of spying on people. Let's forget the fact that spying is their whole purpose. We created the NSA to spy. We pay them to spy. We have FISA court oversight of NSA's spying. Some people say that FISA is nothing more than a rubber stamp. But we have it and we can strengthen it if necessary. We can debate it publicly without being thrown into prison for it, or worse.
Contrast that with the country Snowden ran away to. There's no oversight on Putin's FSB spy agency. Journalists who criticize his regime have a habit of dying young. His political opponents are imprisoned. Snowden is living in a country where democracy doesn't exist and the government has zero respect for personal privacy. If Snowden truly believes his cause is just, he should hop on a plane back to the U.S. and stand up for his principles like a man, instead of cowering under Putin's bed like a spineless wimp.
You're either suggesting that decades to life in supermax prison is a just punishment for principled civil disobedience or you're willfully ignoring the substance of my comment. It is not a matter of belief or patriotism in Snowden's ability to get a fair trail, it is a legal certainty that he cannot. According to experts who have written about it, the laws Snowden is charged under do not allow a defense other than trying to prove that the criminal act did not occur. "There is no whistleblower defense." He did intend to take classified information, so he will be found guilty, and would be sentenced within federal sentencing guidelines for basically the rest of his life.
The NSA was created to collected FOREIGN intelligence, with spying on Americans was expressly prohibited. Part of what Snowden has revealed is that they do in fact collect a lot of information about Americans, routinely and without meaningful oversight. You say "we can strengthen" safeguards and "debate it publicly" while apparently wanting to condemn the people, Snowden and others, who provided the only windows into these activities. If no secrets had been exposed by Snowden and previous whistleblowers like Drake and Kiriakou, there would be nothing to debate and Americans would be ignorant of the power the government is abusing.