No warrant needed to obtain location data held by cellphone carriers, US court rules

Posted:
in General Discussion edited May 2016
Law enforcement officers don't need a warrant to gain access to a cellphone's location data, as long as they obtain it from wireless carriers, a U.S. appeals court ruled on Tuesday.




The ruling was made possible because of a long-standing legal theory, working on the premise that the information is already being shared with a third party -- specifically the carriers, Reuters said. The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Virg. voted 12 to 3 in favor of the decision, overturning a split opinion from three judges at the court in 2015.

The dispute traces back to a series of armed robberies in and around Baltimore in 2011. Police secured 221 days of cellphone data from Sprint, including some 29,000 location records. Two people were ultimately convicted.

The judge writing for the majority opinion in today's ruling, Diana Motz, claimed that the decision doesn't violate the Fourth Amendement because cellphone owners know they're sharing location data with their carrier.

"Anyone who has stepped outside to 'get a signal,' or has warned a caller of a potential loss of service before entering an elevator, understands, on some level, that location matters," Motz argued.

The lead dissenter, Judge James Wynn, countered that wireless customers don't actively choose to submit their location, and hence that the data should be exempt from the third-party sharing theory.

Although the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals made a similar ruling in April, and the Supreme Court declined to review a case last year, the latter institution could eventually be forced to weigh in given lower-court challenges.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 30
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 5,808member
    Do we have any rights in this country anymore?
    lordjohnwhorfinviclauyycjbdragon
  • Reply 2 of 30
    staticx57staticx57 Posts: 405member
    It sounds like Judge Wynn has the right idea. This needs to go to the SCOTUS.
  • Reply 3 of 30
    phone-ui-guyphone-ui-guy Posts: 1,019member
    This is total crap. We don't share our location with the carriers... The carriers track it, but that has nothing to do with us sharing it with them. Does this mean that they can get any call records without a warrant then too? By dialing a number you are sharing it with the carrier. This interpretation sounds like an incredibly dangerous precedent.
    latifbpjbdragon
  • Reply 4 of 30
    doozydozendoozydozen Posts: 539member
    *disclousre: I have no idea what I'm talking about.
    Is it possible for Apple to anonymize the packets of data sent to carries for location? Why is it necessary for carries to have access to your location, for billing purposes? I'm sure we'll see more encrypted measures for iOS 10 come WWDC16.
    cornchip
  • Reply 5 of 30
    I guess it will be up to customers to demand that carriers respect their privacy when it comes to location and other data. But the carriers are beholden to the FCC. If they piss off the government too much, then they could get in trouble. The carriers have less incentive to fight the government on the behalf of customers than Apple does, because Apple doesn't really have any competition, since they own their products and ecosystem (arguably, Apple isn't too concerned with Android or Samsung or HTC or whomever). Each carrier has to compete every other carrier, and they have to stay on the government's good side.
    edited May 2016
  • Reply 6 of 30
    boltsfan17boltsfan17 Posts: 2,294member
    *disclousre: I have no idea what I'm talking about.
    Is it possible for Apple to anonymize the packets of data sent to carries for location? Why is it necessary for carries to have access to your location, for billing purposes? I'm sure we'll see more encrypted measures for iOS 10 come WWDC16.
    I'm no expert, but I don't think there is anything Apple could do. As long as your phone is on, it's going to ping off the nearest cell phone tower and your location will be known. If you could somehow block your ping, I don't know how you would be able to get phone service. 
  • Reply 7 of 30
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    macxpress said:
    Do we have any rights in this country anymore?
    You have the right not to own a cell phone. 
    doozydozentommikelecornchip
  • Reply 8 of 30
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,248member
    The only way cellular networks can operate is by cellphones identifying themselves to the nearest tower that works with their cellphone. Once identified, the towers electronics find the best route to the destination phone. Once the route is identified, the first connection is made and the telephone conversation starts. When the cellphone moves almost out of range of the first cell tower, the cellular companies system finds the next tower, switches the conversation to it and repeats the process until the conversation is completed. The only way for a cellphone customer to stop this tracking would be for the cellular company to securely delete all information about the connection once the call has been completed. They would still keep a record of the destination cell/phone number for billing purposes. Of course, I doubt the cellular companies would ever do this and the FCC would probably prohibit it citing some made up Homeland Security terrorist law. I don't believe the vendor of a cell phone has any way to change this, unless Apple were to become a MVNO (mobile virtual network operator) and have some kind of contract with the network they're licensing that allows them to delete all location data once the call has been completed. If this happened or if all cellular companies did this, I know the government would do something to stop it. Emergency calls would need to keep location data but I don't see a valid reason for all calls to be tracked. The government sees otherwise because they have to have their data to find all those criminals (while at the same time taking away all privacy from the millions of people of are law abiding citizens).
    doozydozenviclauyyc
  • Reply 9 of 30
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,248member
    macxpress said:
    Do we have any rights in this country anymore?
    You have the right not to own a cell phone. 
    You also have a right to not own any type of telephone or other product that uses cellular and landline systems. You also have the right to be a hermit or live on your own in the wild lands of Alaska without any contact with anyone else. Of course, what we're talking about today is the government knowing who every single person talks to, where they go and what they do. 
    viclauyyclatifbpjbdragonbadmonk
  • Reply 10 of 30
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    macxpress said:
    Do we have any rights in this country anymore?
    You have the right not to own a cell phone. 
    what absurd nonsense. but that fuzzy-headed logic there should be no property rights, because we have the right not to have property. nonsense.
    williamlondoncornchipviclauyyclatifbpjbdragonbadmonk
  • Reply 11 of 30
    Yes but who exactly has access to this location information? Can the local cop or any  low level government official simply look up my cell phone number and track me?
  • Reply 12 of 30
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    You have the right not to own a cell phone. 
    what absurd nonsense. but that fuzzy-headed logic there should be no property rights, because we have the right not to have property. nonsense.
    Nonsense is comparing a necessity to a luxury. 
    ronn
  • Reply 13 of 30
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    Yes but who exactly has access to this location information? Can the local cop or any  low level government official simply look up my cell phone number and track me?
    They would have to contact the carrier and get it from them. 
    ronn
  • Reply 14 of 30
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    macxpress said:
    Do we have any rights in this country anymore?
    There is a significant lack of respect for the Constitution from our political organizations. The democrats are the worst offenders here but there certainly are others that believe in the living document interpretation. Sadly far to many people, judges and prosecutors, are also,of the belief that they can twist the rights laid out in the Constitution and Bill of Rights any way they want. We live in a sad period where fear, the stirring up of fear, is used clip our long standing freedoms at every opportunity. People need to get angry and hold these assholes accountable. You do that by not electing the same idiots again and again.
    latifbp
  • Reply 15 of 30
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    You have the right not to own a cell phone. 
    what absurd nonsense. but that fuzzy-headed logic there should be no property rights, because we have the right not to have property. nonsense.
    Nonsense is comparing a necessity to a luxury. 
    Freedom isn't a luxury! This amounts to giving cops a free hand to follow you around 24/7. How would you feel if they pinned an officer to you shadowing you 24/7? Seriously dude if you can't grasp the significance here of what you are giving up then you need to spend more time outside your mothers basement.
    latifbpviclauyycbrucemcicoco3
  • Reply 16 of 30
    stanthemanstantheman Posts: 332member
    This is the same standard applied by the courts when other private activities are concerned. For example, if you are sitting alone out in a field and the government spies on you from a plane or drone, prosecutors will argue that everyone knows that planes and drones can monitor people on the ground ... so you have "no reasonable expectation of privacy." The end game of prosecutors is to argue in court that you know the FBI is trying to hack iOS, so you have no reasonable expectation of privacy at all. Many people (both in the USA and overseas) do expect their smartphones are subject to government monitoring. So the "reasonable expectation" standard will eventually place most elements of our privacy in jeopardy, as government gains access to better technology.
    viclauyycgatorguy
  • Reply 17 of 30
    Herbivore2Herbivore2 Posts: 367member
    Perhaps Apple itself could put a stop to this. They have billions in the bank and can use it to build out their own network. 

    Wifi calling gets more and more attractive. . .
  • Reply 18 of 30
    viclauyycviclauyyc Posts: 849member
    How can 3 judges have split opinion?
  • Reply 19 of 30
    viclauyycviclauyyc Posts: 849member
    macxpress said:
    Do we have any rights in this country anymore?
    US will become USSR soon.
    latifbp
  • Reply 20 of 30
    williamhwilliamh Posts: 1,033member
    Perhaps Apple itself could put a stop to this. They have billions in the bank and can use it to build out their own network. 

    Wifi calling gets more and more attractive. . .
    Wifi calling won't protect you either.  Although the government won't be able to get cell tower records for you, you can still be pinned to a location by the IP information on your phone and the hotspots you connect to.  It doesn't matter if Apple builds its own network either.  The information you provide (through your phone or other device) to the phone company (or whoever facilitates the communication) could be obtained by law enforcement through a subpoena.  The content of your communication is protected, but the IP or phone number or whatever is used to establish the channel of communication is not protected because you have provided that information to a 3rd party.
    edited May 2016
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