Apple Energy gets federal approval to sell power into wholesale markets

Posted:
in General Discussion
On Thursday, the U.S. Federal Energy Regulatory Commission granted Apple Energy LLC -- a recently-created Apple subsidiary -- the right to sell energy generated from its solar facilities into wholesale markets.




The Commission decided that Apple Energy doesn't pose a risk of hiked energy prices, Bloomberg reported. Sales can officially begin on Saturday.

Filings for Apple Energy list several assets, including a 130-megawatt solar farm near San Francisco, a 50-megawatt facility in Arizona, and another 19.9 megawatts in Nevada.

Rather than selling to the public, Apple is believed to be using Apple Energy simply to sell excess power to public utilities, helping to offset the cost of running its infrastructure. When and where possible, Apple uses solar as a primary source of "green" power for offices and datacenters.

The subsidiary was quietly established in May, fueling speculation in some quarters that Apple intended to become a true energy provider selling to consumers. That, however, would've required a major investment to connect to homes and businesses.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 22
    calicali Posts: 3,494member
    Energy is coming soon to a home near you.

    Trust me.
    badmonkfastasleepslprescott
  • Reply 2 of 22
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Realistically, this is the best way to do it. Whether Apple will build-out more than they need for their own, on average, will be interesting to see. But, for now, it seems as though they just want some way to pay for excess output. That excess could disappear if Apple expands the data farms they are using them for. In which case these sales would be temporary.
    calibadmonkksecjony0
  • Reply 3 of 22
    The phrase, "Power to the people," comes to mind!
    cali
  • Reply 4 of 22
    Get ready Samsung Energy coming soon to a city near you. 
    nolamacguyloquiturcalijony0
  • Reply 5 of 22
    Can someone please explain this

    The Commission decided that Apple Energy doesn't pose a risk of hiked energy prices

    Why on earth would another supplier coming into the market cause a rise in prices?
    Would not it actually depress prices?
    Or is this some entrenched coal burner complaining?


    nostrathomaslostkiwi
  • Reply 6 of 22
    Can someone please explain this

    The Commission decided that Apple Energy doesn't pose a risk of hiked energy prices

    Why on earth would another supplier coming into the market cause a rise in prices?
    Would not it actually depress prices?
    Or is this some entrenched coal burner complaining?


    You're asking for common sense and logic from the US Government. That's your issue. ;)
    dunestocklostkiwi
  • Reply 7 of 22
    emoelleremoeller Posts: 574member
    Can someone please explain this

    The Commission decided that Apple Energy doesn't pose a risk of hiked energy prices

    Why on earth would another supplier coming into the market cause a rise in prices?
    Would not it actually depress prices?
    Or is this some entrenched coal burner complaining?


    The Commission's mandate ( http://www.erc.go.ke/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=88&Itemid=486 ) requires them to make this determination in order to issue their approval.  The approval is needed before Apple can resell their excess capacity.  There was never any risk of hiked energy prices - it's simply how our federal government oversight works.  
    Soli
  • Reply 8 of 22
    singularitysingularity Posts: 1,328member
    gilly017 said:
    Get ready Samsung Energy coming soon to a city near you. 
    http://www.samsungrenewableenergy.ca/
    cwingrav
  • Reply 9 of 22
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,799member

    The subsidiary was quietly established in May, fueling speculation in some quarters that Apple intended to become a true energy provider selling to consumers. That, however, would've required a major investment to connect to homes and businesses.
    As far as I know each neighborhood usually has only one electrical utility so there is literally no way for Apple to connect directly to homes and businesses. Utility companies buy power from various wholesale providers through what is known as power brokers. The utilities purchase more or less as needed and sell it to end users. Because electricity used by utilities cannot be stored, they buy it on demand.

    Although the US Federal Regulatory Commission has approved Apple's filing, each state also has a Public Energy Commission that they will need approval from. Many electric utilities are fighting against having to purchase excess solar energy and often ask the Commission to lower the amount that they are required to pay private solar producers. Apple was generally doing this even when the solar farms were located next to the data center. They sell the solar to the utility and then get their electricity from the grid, even in a completely different location so long as it is from the same utility.

    By becoming a wholesaler they can sell their solar power through the power brokers and probably get a better price for it, especially during times of high demand such as really hot weather when AC demand is high and solar is generating at maximum capacity. Generally data centers do not use a lot of AC but instead use air/water cooling systems, so hot weather doesn't significantly affect the amount of electricity that the data center needs. Some data centers do use AC but most of the really large ones do not. They have cooling towers and circulate cold water directly to the server cabinets.
    edited August 2016 lostkiwi
  • Reply 10 of 22
    I wonder if Amazon will build a coal burner and ask to sell THAT overcapacity into the grid.
    jony0
  • Reply 11 of 22
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    volcan said:

    The subsidiary was quietly established in May, fueling speculation in some quarters that Apple intended to become a true energy provider selling to consumers. That, however, would've required a major investment to connect to homes and businesses.
    As far as I know each neighborhood usually has only one electrical utility so there is literally no way for Apple to connect directly to homes and businesses.
    They'll go back to the days of home deliveeed ice or milk. A delivery man will bring a large battery to your home and take out the old one periodically¡ It'all install like Telsa Powerwall.
  • Reply 12 of 22
    badmonkbadmonk Posts: 1,295member
    I wonder if Amazon will build a coal burner and ask to sell THAT overcapacity into the grid.
    it does seem like something jeff bezos would do.
    lostkiwi
  • Reply 13 of 22
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,292member
    Can someone please explain this

    The Commission decided that Apple Energy doesn't pose a risk of hiked energy prices

    Why on earth would another supplier coming into the market cause a rise in prices?
    Would not it actually depress prices?
    Or is this some entrenched coal burner complaining?


    This isn't a big deal. It's just how the commission says "Apple isn't going to monopolize the energy market because they are too small of a supplier." 

    Historically, electric utilities have been monopolists (or oligopolists) operating at very large scales. The government regulated these monopolists to prevent them from jacking up prices for consumers who would have no alternative but to pay the price or go without power. So the regulations are all focused on that worry. That worry is becoming outdated, but it's still a worry. 

    The fact that the commission quickly reached this decision shows that government regulators are quite capable of applying common sense. 
  • Reply 14 of 22
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    I'd pay for Apple Energy, Apple Cellular, Apple Fiber and Apple Car products and services if they were offered. All of them.
  • Reply 15 of 22
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,292member

    cali said:
    Energy is coming soon to a home near you.

    Trust me.
    Maybe... but it depends on what you mean. 

    I would think their comparative advantage would be in the UI for controlling/managing electrical production, storage, and use in a household. Perhaps they also have a comparative advantage in that they have massive financial capital that could be used to get good prices on solar cells and other components from producers. So, perhaps it's not too far fetched to imagine that they would offer consumers a "turn-key" solar power solution (not unlike what Elon Musk described in master plan 2). 

    But if they go that route, then they might as well just buy Tesla, since Tesla is also much further along in the EV market, too. 
  • Reply 16 of 22
    Can someone please explain this

    The Commission decided that Apple Energy doesn't pose a risk of hiked energy prices

    Why on earth would another supplier coming into the market cause a rise in prices?
    Would not it actually depress prices?
    Or is this some entrenched coal burner complaining?


    I am guessing it's a combination of factors. Solar energy, without subsidies, is often more expensive to generate than coal/gas based power. But price is a function of scale and location. In this instance, given that Apple's installations are 20MW capacity and above, in apparently very sunny areas, the price is likely competitive. Most states have so-called "renewable energy mandates"(or some version of it) that require utilities to have a certain proportion of their electricity from non-nuclear renewable sources (typically 20% - 30%) by 2020-2025.

    Given the dramatic growth in solar, many utilities have maxed out on what they can (or need to) purchase. Combine that with the cost of additional capital expenditure they'll have to incur to take the power from Apple-type facilities and homes, it can get quite expensive. The utilities, however, cannot and do not bear the full cost (after all, they can't run at a loss), so they pass it on to consumers. The typical non-renewable electricity consumer (which is most of us) ends of up footing the bill. (Btw, that includes a lot of low-income people who can't afford to put up solar installations).

    The bottom line is, Commissions in a lot of states are now extremely sensitive to passing on higher renewable energy costs to utilities and their non-renewable consumers. Think of it as the dark side of successful renewable energy capacity creation!
    edited August 2016 JanNL
  • Reply 17 of 22
    ksecksec Posts: 1,569member
    melgross said:
    Realistically, this is the best way to do it. Whether Apple will build-out more than they need for their own, on average, will be interesting to see. But, for now, it seems as though they just want some way to pay for excess output. That excess could disappear if Apple expands the data farms they are using them for. In which case these sales would be temporary.

    With Energy, you always built for Peak usage.

    I really wish Apple could somehow calculate its Energy Usage from Manufacturing partners, Retails, shipping etc.... and produce enough Clean Energy to offset these usage. So Apple will be net NET Carbon Zero emission.
  • Reply 18 of 22
    ksecksec Posts: 1,569member
    blastdoor said:
    Can someone please explain this

    The Commission decided that Apple Energy doesn't pose a risk of hiked energy prices

    Why on earth would another supplier coming into the market cause a rise in prices?
    Would not it actually depress prices?
    Or is this some entrenched coal burner complaining?


    This isn't a big deal. It's just how the commission says "Apple isn't going to monopolize the energy market because they are too small of a supplier." 

    Historically, electric utilities have been monopolists (or oligopolists) operating at very large scales. The government regulated these monopolists to prevent them from jacking up prices for consumers who would have no alternative but to pay the price or go without power. So the regulations are all focused on that worry. That worry is becoming outdated, but it's still a worry. 

    The fact that the commission quickly reached this decision shows that government regulators are quite capable of applying common sense. 
    Is this Monopoly thing something after Enron happened? ( Otherwise it surely didn't exssit in Enron Era )
  • Reply 19 of 22
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,292member
    ksec said:
    blastdoor said:
    This isn't a big deal. It's just how the commission says "Apple isn't going to monopolize the energy market because they are too small of a supplier." 

    Historically, electric utilities have been monopolists (or oligopolists) operating at very large scales. The government regulated these monopolists to prevent them from jacking up prices for consumers who would have no alternative but to pay the price or go without power. So the regulations are all focused on that worry. That worry is becoming outdated, but it's still a worry. 

    The fact that the commission quickly reached this decision shows that government regulators are quite capable of applying common sense. 
    Is this Monopoly thing something after Enron happened? ( Otherwise it surely didn't exssit in Enron Era )
    I'm not sure what you mean by "this monopoly thing." Do you mean the existence of monopolists in the electric utility market? If so, that is something that has existed for about as long as there have been electric wires running to people's houses. 


  • Reply 20 of 22
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,292member

    ksec said:
    melgross said:
    Realistically, this is the best way to do it. Whether Apple will build-out more than they need for their own, on average, will be interesting to see. But, for now, it seems as though they just want some way to pay for excess output. That excess could disappear if Apple expands the data farms they are using them for. In which case these sales would be temporary.

    With Energy, you always built for Peak usage.

    I really wish Apple could somehow calculate its Energy Usage from Manufacturing partners, Retails, shipping etc.... and produce enough Clean Energy to offset these usage. So Apple will be net NET Carbon Zero emission.
    For some reason I had the impression that they're on their way towards doing that. If nothing else, doing so would give them great PR in China -- a country where just having breathable air is a huge issue (even without global warming). 
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