US Treasury takes last stab at deterring tax judgment against Apple & Ireland

Posted:
in General Discussion
The U.S. Treasury Department issued a special white paper on Wednesday, threatening that it will "consider potential responses" should the European Commsission demand that Ireland collect billions of euros in back taxes from Apple.



"This shift in approach appears to expand the role of the [E.U. competition directorate] beyond enforcement of competition and state aid law...into that of a supranational tax authority," the paper said according to the Financial Times. The document was commissioned by Treasury Secretary Jack Lew.

The European Commission first began looking into Apple's Irish tax situation in 2013, suggesting that the Irish government may have given Apple preferential treatment in order to attract jobs and money. Through tax loopholes, the company ended up paying just 2 percent on funneled international revenue, well below the normal 12.5 percent tax rate. A judgment could finally be issued in September.

The EU has already rendered judgments against the Netherlands and Luxembourg, which were accused of offering illegal state aid to Starbucks and Fiat Chrysler, respectively. That may not bode well for a ruling on Apple.

Indeed, the Treasury paper claimed that a finding against Apple and Ireland would undermine tax "certainty," and create a precedent under which other agencies will seek "large and punitive retroactive recoveries from both U.S. and E.U. companies."

The issue of corporate tax avoidance has gained increasing attention in recent years, driven by concerns about wealth inequality and increasing strain on government budgets and services. Earlier this year, the so-called Panama Papers exposed numerous businesses and individuals using that country as a tax haven, some legally and some not.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 101
    How dare the EU investigate a potential breach of the rules and omg then enforce any ruling.
    There is no punitive recovery if the deal between Apple and Ireland is found to breach the rules. 
    cnocbuilarryadysamoriacrowley[Deleted User]
  • Reply 2 of 101
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,311member
    Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new. You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
    coolfactorjay-tslprescottmike1rob53lostkiwicwingravlatifbphlee1169
  • Reply 3 of 101
    jbdragon said:
    Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new. You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
    No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
    larryadysamoriawaverboyHabi_tweetcrowleyfrankie
  • Reply 4 of 101
    quinneyquinney Posts: 2,528member
    The Treasury Dept. is bummed because if the EU collects more taxes from Apple, Apple will be able to deduct that amount from what they would
    owe the U.S. if they patriated their offshore holdings at some point.
    SpamSandwichicoco3
  • Reply 5 of 101
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    quinney said:
    The Treasury Dept. is bummed because if the EU collects more taxes from Apple, Apple will be able to deduct that amount from what they would
    owe the U.S. if they patriated their offshore holdings at some point.
    Well close. If the taxes are paid overseas the US will never see a dime of that. "Offshore Holdings" is a misnomer IMO anyway as the money is safely deposited in banks right here in the US for the most part. It's "overseas" in technical terms only.  

    But I'd differ from your view only as it applies to Apple. They wouldn't "repatriate" this money anyway as they have no reason to. In fact they get a double benefit from borrowing against those funds to finance their stock buybacks as the interest is deductible. Apple ain't bringin' in home. Period. So no I don't think it's Apple and taxes the Treasury Dept is concerned about but instead the thousands of other US companies who may have plans to bring some of their foreign cash home, but may have already been forced to pay foreign corporate taxes before doing so. 
    edited August 2016
  • Reply 6 of 101
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    jbdragon said:
    Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new. You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
    No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
    That's not quite  true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well. The EU has mostly been targeting American companies. It's been pointed out that most large EU companies follow the same practice, but haven't been targeted, only those that actually broke EU law.

    apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.

    so to make Ireland the center of European operations, and thereby the focus of their tax returns isn't actually illegal, according to EU law. The fact too, is that it's actually Ireland that's the subject of the investigation, not Apple, or others. The problem for Apple is that if Ireland is required to pay those taxes, then it's the companies that will be forced to do the actual payments.

    if this were France or Germany, this investigation never would have happened, as that two do whatever they want.
    latifbprob53hlee1169
  • Reply 7 of 101
    U.S. Treasury Department: "But WE wanted all that Apple money! It's OURS!!!"
    singularity
  • Reply 8 of 101
    Amazing what lobbying (bribing) can do, great job apple;)
    edited August 2016 Habi_tweet
  • Reply 9 of 101
    quinneyquinney Posts: 2,528member
    gatorguy said:
    quinney said:
    The Treasury Dept. is bummed because if the EU collects more taxes from Apple, Apple will be able to deduct that amount from what they would
    owe the U.S. if they patriated their offshore holdings at some point.
    Well close. If the taxes are paid overseas the US will never see a dime of that. "Offshore Holdings" is a misnomer IMO anyway as the money is safely deposited in banks right here in the US for the most part. It's "overseas" in technical terms only.  

    But I'd differ from your view only as it applies to Apple. They wouldn't "repatriate" this money anyway as they have no reason to. In fact they get a double benefit from borrowing against those funds to finance their stock buybacks as the interest is deductible. Apple ain't bringin' in home. Period. So no I don't think it's Apple and taxes the Treasury Dept is concerned about but instead the thousands of other US companies who may have plans to bring some of their foreign cash home, but may have already been forced to pay foreign corporate taxes before doing so. 
    The holdings are offshore only in terms of their taxes, which is the topic of this thread.  I guess if I had put quotes around offshore holdings like you did for the misnomer "repatriate" it might have been acceptable, even to someone who lives to bicker.

    Apple has no reason to patriate these funds right now, but you have no way of knowing what the case will be in the future, what with so many U.S. politicians making derogatory statements about companies who choose to create jobs outside the U.S. and floating ideas about how to force changes in that practice.
  • Reply 10 of 101
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    melgross said:
    jbdragon said:
    Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new. You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
    No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
    That's not quite  true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well. The EU has mostly been targeting American companies. It's been pointed out that most large EU companies follow the same practice, but haven't been targeted, only those that actually broke EU law.

    apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.

    so to make Ireland the center of European operations, and thereby the focus of their tax returns isn't actually illegal, according to EU law. The fact too, is that it's actually Ireland that's the subject of the investigation, not Apple, or others. The problem for Apple is that if Ireland is required to pay those taxes, then it's the companies that will be forced to do the actual payments.

    if this were France or Germany, this investigation never would have happened, as that two do whatever they want.
    That is incorrect.  EU competition law does apply and does have jurisdiction.  This has nothing to do with the EU dictating to Ireland what it's corporate tax rate should be.  This is about Ireland offering a super low tax rate - being closer to zero than the official corporate tax rate of 12.5% - to Apple alone.  This is seen as the government giving a massive leg up to one company, but not to other companies, which is why it falls under the purview of the competition commission.

    This not about Apple's tax practices so has nothing to do with what other European companies do tax wise.

    I think you are right about the French and German governments being treated differently, but that seems only to apply to state aid to significant indigenous companies of strategic importance, such as when the French government propped up Air France - even then there was an action brought against the French government, even if they slimed their way around it.  I'm pretty sure if the French or German governments had been found to be giving assistance to a foreign company the way Ireland is accused of, they too would have copped it.
    singularity
  • Reply 11 of 101
    mike1mike1 Posts: 3,286member
    What benefit does Ireland actually get from being in the EU anyway?
    latifbpSpamSandwichicoco3
  • Reply 12 of 101
    latifbplatifbp Posts: 544member
    melgross said:
    jbdragon said:
    Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new. You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
    No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
    That's not quite  true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well. The EU has mostly been targeting American companies. It's been pointed out that most large EU companies follow the same practice, but haven't been targeted, only those that actually broke EU law.

    apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.

    so to make Ireland the center of European operations, and thereby the focus of their tax returns isn't actually illegal, according to EU law. The fact too, is that it's actually Ireland that's the subject of the investigation, not Apple, or others. The problem for Apple is that if Ireland is required to pay those taxes, then it's the companies that will be forced to do the actual payments.

    if this were France or Germany, this investigation never would have happened, as that two do whatever they want.
    There are a lot of immature Euros on here who don't understand the most rudimentary foundation of business... Whatever local community or city or state decides to do with a company is up to them. To have some arbitrary regulatory body create rules and apply them retroactively is unethical at best, but some Euros insist on cheering on this political stupidity
    icoco3
  • Reply 13 of 101
    latifbplatifbp Posts: 544member
    cnocbui said:
    melgross said:
    jbdragon said:
    Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new. You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
    No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
    That's not quite  true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well. The EU has mostly been targeting American companies. It's been pointed out that most large EU companies follow the same practice, but haven't been targeted, only those that actually broke EU law.

    apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.

    so to make Ireland the center of European operations, and thereby the focus of their tax returns isn't actually illegal, according to EU law. The fact too, is that it's actually Ireland that's the subject of the investigation, not Apple, or others. The problem for Apple is that if Ireland is required to pay those taxes, then it's the companies that will be forced to do the actual payments.

    if this were France or Germany, this investigation never would have happened, as that two do whatever they want.
    That is incorrect.  EU competition law does apply and does have jurisdiction.  This has nothing to do with the EU dictating to Ireland what it's corporate tax rate should be.  This is about Ireland offering a super low tax rate - being closer to zero than the official corporate tax rate of 12.5% - to Apple alone.  This is seen as the government giving a massive leg up to one company, but not to other companies, which is why it falls under the purview of the competition commission.

    This not about Apple's tax practices so has nothing to do with what other European companies do tax wise.

    I think you are right about the French and German governments being treated differently, but that seems only to apply to state aid to significant indigenous companies of strategic importance, such as when the French government propped up Air France - even then there was an action brought against the French government, even if they slimed their way around it.  I'm pretty sure if the French or German governments had been found to be giving assistance to a foreign company the way Ireland is accused of, they too would have copped it.
    I will savor Lew's response and the day Euros start losing business deals. 
  • Reply 14 of 101
    U.S. Treasury Department: "But WE wanted all that Apple money! It's OURS!!!"
    You got it spot on. The US Gov wants ALL of the money earned and held (legally) outside the US to be taxed as if it were held in the USA.
    This is all part of their quest to enforce US Law over every square inch of this planet and basically say 'up yours' to local laws in the process.
    The US National Debt is IMHO the reason behind this and other moves.

    It would surprise me to see a move where a company supplying a US foreign subsidiary in a foreign country be the next target for IRS Tax demands. you do business with any US company anywhere on the planet and you are liable for US taxes on your worldwide operations.
    That won't go down very well and will IMHO make the 'New USA' of Pres Trump easier to achieve. The Isolationism of the 1930's will pale into insignificance by what could happen if the US took that road.

    Habi_tweet[Deleted User]cnocbui
  • Reply 15 of 101
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    latifbp said:
    melgross said:
    jbdragon said:
    Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new. You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
    No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
    That's not quite  true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well. The EU has mostly been targeting American companies. It's been pointed out that most large EU companies follow the same practice, but haven't been targeted, only those that actually broke EU law.

    apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.

    so to make Ireland the center of European operations, and thereby the focus of their tax returns isn't actually illegal, according to EU law. The fact too, is that it's actually Ireland that's the subject of the investigation, not Apple, or others. The problem for Apple is that if Ireland is required to pay those taxes, then it's the companies that will be forced to do the actual payments.

    if this were France or Germany, this investigation never would have happened, as that two do whatever they want.
    There are a lot of immature Euros on here who don't understand the most rudimentary foundation of business... Whatever local community or city or state decides to do with a company is up to them. To have some arbitrary regulatory body create rules and apply them retroactively is unethical at best, but some Euros insist on cheering on this political stupidity
    Article 107 of the TFEU (formerly 87 of the TEC) is the law that prohibits state aid as incompatible with competitiveness.  It is not being applied retroactively, it's been there for a long time.
    singularity[Deleted User]cnocbui
  • Reply 16 of 101
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    melgross said:
    jbdragon said:
    Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new. You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
    No the EU is investigating the charge that Apple had a deal that constituted to state aid which was not the same as other companies had access to which contravenes the rules. It's not changing the rules it's looking to see if the rules weren't enforced.
    That's not quite  true. But even so, it's taking the authority of individual countries into its own hands which isn't part of EU law. 
     :/ 
  • Reply 17 of 101
    mike1 said:
    What benefit does Ireland actually get from being in the EU anyway?
    Well free move of people and resources. No taxes from like if they are outside EU. EMU, free move of money without specific added cost of transfer of payments (and the money will be on the account the new working day). Probably the companies that are located in Ireland wouldn't be there if Ireland wouldn't be an EU member, at least not anywhere  near those people numbers...
    edited August 2016
  • Reply 18 of 101
    singularitysingularity Posts: 1,328member
    crowley said:
    latifbp said:
    There are a lot of immature Euros on here who don't understand the most rudimentary foundation of business... Whatever local community or city or state decides to do with a company is up to them. To have some arbitrary regulatory body create rules and apply them retroactively is unethical at best, but some Euros insist on cheering on this political stupidity
    Article 107 of the TFEU (formerly 87 of the TEC) is the law that prohibits state aid as incompatible with competitiveness.  It is not being applied retroactively, it's been there for a long time.
    i see crowley answered 

    latifbp said: What Ireland did is the same thing we see states, counties and cities doing all the time. They give breaks to companies in order to have them move some operations into the area. This is done in Europe as well.
    just because the law says it's ok to do this in the USA doesn't mean it's allowed else where. In the EU if all companies have access to the "deal" then it's allowed, if only one company has that deal it's not allowed. Thus the investigation.
    [Deleted User]
  • Reply 19 of 101
    jbdragon said:
    Apple followed LEGAL Tax Laws!!! Apple didn't put the loopholes into the tax code, the politicians did. Now they want to change the rules and steal money from company's. That's exactly what they are doing, Government stealing. Really, it's nothing new. You want to change the rules and close the loopholes, great, the extra taxes taken start at that point forward. I don't have a problem with that. American company's will slowly start to leave where it makes the most sense.
    Not really, if you for example claimed additional benefits from the government for several years (knowingly or not), once found out you are expected to pay back those benefits retrospectively. It's not forgotten about. Likewise here, Apple (granted, not of their own doing) used the Irish government's illegal tax break to pay less taxes across the whole of Europe, maybe farther. The ruling body (EU in this case) has investigated and will likely declare it illegal state aid and demand the correct taxes be back dated appropriately and collected by the Irish government (not the EU - they don't gain from the tax other than any potential fines). This is not a moral dilema if the tax break was illegal. It's not like hiding money in the Cayman Islands etc.
  • Reply 20 of 101
    melgross said:
    apple has long had a large presence in Ireland. Right now, that's over 6,000 people, with that number due to expand further. Considering the population of Ireland, that's a large percentage, and makes Apple one of the largest employers in Ireland.
    Ireland's population is roughly 4.6million. 6000 employees is 0.13% of the population, hardly a large percentage.
    Even the discount clothing store Primark has 4000 employees in Eire. Kerry Group (a dairy company) has 24000 employees, CRH has 89000+ employees, Ryanair, the budget airline has over 9500 employees. Smurfit Kappa employs 43000+ irish while Allergan has 30000 strong workforce in the country. Don't kid yourself thinking Apple is the BIG player, Google has the same 6000 employee figure there too, even the betting company Paddy Power has more at 7000 employees.
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