When will Apple step up to the plate and make some real PRO products
everything apple does is either i or pro or power. pro speakers, pro keyboard, pro mouse, power mac.
none of these deserve to be called pro models or machines. there is nothing pro at all about the pro named products.
Apple is not cheap, they're customers are not cheap. Why sell crap under a pro moniker. I'd much rather see Apple create real pro products even if they cost more money. Sell some kick ass high quality speakers for the towers. sell a real pro keyboard and mice with PRO inspired features. Apple is better off bundling the kensington Studio Mouse. That is what Apple should have made years ago. That is a PRO mouse. not this piece of crap now.
and the towers always seem to have features cut that pros demand. whether it be for price concerns or plain stubborness. why? makes no sense. if peope want 2 standard drive bays GIVE IT. it's your ****ing pro product line, top of the line and it took this long to get it and apparantly there are still issues.
sorry, little annoyed today
none of these deserve to be called pro models or machines. there is nothing pro at all about the pro named products.
Apple is not cheap, they're customers are not cheap. Why sell crap under a pro moniker. I'd much rather see Apple create real pro products even if they cost more money. Sell some kick ass high quality speakers for the towers. sell a real pro keyboard and mice with PRO inspired features. Apple is better off bundling the kensington Studio Mouse. That is what Apple should have made years ago. That is a PRO mouse. not this piece of crap now.
and the towers always seem to have features cut that pros demand. whether it be for price concerns or plain stubborness. why? makes no sense. if peope want 2 standard drive bays GIVE IT. it's your ****ing pro product line, top of the line and it took this long to get it and apparantly there are still issues.
sorry, little annoyed today
Comments
"we're going to be kicking ass" well stop talking and start kicking.
everything apple does is either i or pro or power. pro speakers, pro keyboard, pro mouse, power mac.<hr></blockquote>
I think the only thing really holding the Power Mac back is data throughput. CPU speed doesn't matter to me, but the MPX bus is killing performance.
[quote]Apple is not cheap, they're customers are not cheap. Why sell crap under a pro moniker. I'd much rather see Apple create real pro products even if they cost more money. Sell some kick ass high quality speakers for the towers. sell a real pro keyboard and mice with PRO inspired features. Apple is better off bundling the kensington Studio Mouse. That is what Apple should have made years ago. That is a PRO mouse. not this piece of crap now.<hr></blockquote>
The speakers are optional, so that's alright. If I want kick-ass speakers, I'll buy some bookshelfs from PSB or something. I don't think it would be a good idea for Apple to put its brand on something that will sell even less than the current Pro Speakers. No other company puts its brand on the high-end computer speaker set-ups. Dell just resells stuff made by another brand.
As for the mouse. I've been saying all along that this is intentional. The Pro Mouse is crap on purpose because it's disposable. It's placed there, not as an option so customers will buy Mac products from third parties.
[quote]if peope want 2 standard drive bays GIVE IT. it's your ****ing pro product line, top of the line and it took this long to get it and apparantly there are still issues.<hr></blockquote>
The issues are with oversized 5.25" drives like the old DVR-A03. A pro should be on the ball with getting the latest pro equipment anyway right? They should research and buy standard sized equipment in the first place.
yes it is but it doesn't stop there. why must apple always follow the crowd in adopting new technologies. why isn't firewire 2 there, why isn't usb 2, why isn't 8X AGP, why aren't there 2 ATA/100 channels instead of one. why are they still selling $1700 towers with MX series graphic cards and run of the mill audio i/o?
[quote]The speakers are optional, so that's alright. If I want kick-ass speakers, I'll buy some bookshelfs from PSB or something. I don't think it would be a good idea for Apple to put its brand on something that will sell even less than the current Pro Speakers. No other company puts its brand on the high-end computer speaker set-ups. Dell just resells stuff made by another brand.<hr></blockquote>
the speakers shouldn't be optional. paying that much for a machine I should at least get what is on the models below. ie: pro speakers and software like the imac. Apple doesn't even include stereo speakers with a 3000 dollar computer. it's insane.
and I find it amusing that the PRO speakers come standard on the iMac but must be bought seperately with the professional Powermacs
[quote]As for the mouse. I've been saying all along that this is intentional. The Pro Mouse is crap on purpose because it's disposable. It's placed there, not as an option so customers will buy Mac products from third parties.<hr></blockquote>
it's unbelievable how a mouse can be such of a turn off. potential switchers still hate that its a one button mouse. it's a problem that is easily fixed.
and a better mouse should come with the pro model anyway. Doesn't Apple have any pride in themselves? It's disgraceful
[quote]The issues are with oversized 5.25" drives like the old DVR-A03. A pro should be on the ball with getting the latest pro equipment anyway right? They should research and buy standard sized equipment in the first place.<hr></blockquote>
these drives fit fine in PC bays no? so they should in the PowerMac.
<strong>
yes it is but it doesn't stop there. why must apple always follow the crowd in adopting new technologies. why isn't firewire 2 there, why isn't usb 2, why isn't 8X AGP, why aren't there 2 ATA/100 channels instead of one. why are they still selling $1700 towers with MX series graphic cards and run of the mill audio i/o?</strong><hr></blockquote>
FireWire 2 will be on Apple hardware when it is ready. USB 2 won't be on Apple hardware until FireWire 2 is ready. Almost no desktops anywhere have 8x AGP, and only a few cards available now are actually designed for it. The Parhelia and the Radeon 9700 are two that I know of. 8x AGP will almost surely come with the next major revision.
Everybody knows the new towers are still a stop-gap. The ATA/100 bus is actually part of the new I/O controller. Basically they retained the old southbridge from the QuickSilvers and now we have one ATA/100, one ATA/66 and one ATA/33 bus. Personally, I think a pro would be using 4 SCSI drives instead anyway, so the ATA controllers are actually unimportant.
The graphics card is standard Apple fare. It makes sense as a prebuilt option, since most people that buy Power Macs aren't pro users anyway. And yes, the price premium...what's new? <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
[quote]the speakers shouldn't be optional. paying that much for a machine I should at least get what is on the models below. ie: pro speakers and software like the imac. Apple doesn't even include stereo speakers with a 3000 dollar computer. it's insane.
and I find it amusing that the PRO speakers come standard on the iMac but must be bought seperately with the professional Powermacs<hr></blockquote>
Pros like options, and I could start naming every available speaker a pro might want and I wouldn't be done listing them until next year. How does Apple choose one set of speakers, or even a half dozen and make every pro happy?
Baseline speakers make more sense. I really don't want Apple to get into the speaker business any more than it is right now.
[quote]it's unbelievable how a mouse can be such of a turn off. potential switchers still hate that its a one button mouse. it's a problem that is easily fixed.
and a better mouse should come with the pro model anyway. Doesn't Apple have any pride in themselves? It's disgraceful<hr></blockquote>
Anybody who uses that excuse to not buy a Mac probably had no intentions of buying one anyway. The mouse might cost $60 at retail, but it really doesn't add very much to the cost of a machine. I doubt a fence sitter has any problem going to CompUSA and picking up a $20 Intellimouse or Logitech, especially if they're pros.
[quote]these drives fit fine in PC bays no? so they should in the PowerMac.<hr></blockquote>
They don't fit in all PC drive bays...one reason why the DVR-A04 (which only increases DVD read speed) was rushed out to market. The DVR-A03 didn't fit in many cases.
1.) I knew you were gonna say that about firewire 2. I don't know the details of if it is ready or not but its been a long time and its long overdue. I believe devices have been announced that use it, Apple is a kep player in firewire, you would think they would have it by now at all costs.
2.) 8x AGP is on most new boards no? This is a new product that will carry apple for at least 5 months. It's available to use. WHY NOT USE IT? doesn't make much sense to me unless there are other technical factors I don't know about... which may very well be the case
[quote]Everybody knows the new towers are still a stop-gap. The ATA/100 bus is actually part of the new I/O controller. Basically they retained the old southbridge from the QuickSilvers and now we have one ATA/100, one ATA/66 and one ATA/33 bus. Personally, I think a pro would be using 4 SCSI drives instead anyway, so the ATA controllers are actually unimportant.<hr></blockquote>
why would a pro be using SCSI? Xserve seems to kick ass and use ATA. ATA drives are fast and cheap and have huge storage. Can't beat it. and they are suitable for all but special circumstances. Apple does quad ATA/100 controllers on the Xserve. Why not 2 on the PowerMac?
[quote]Pros like options, and I could start naming every available speaker a pro might want and I wouldn't be done listing them until next year. How does Apple choose one set of speakers, or even a half dozen and make every pro happy?<hr></blockquote>
what's the difference between providing no speakers and people having options and providing speakers and people still having options? speakers. that's it. by providing speakers Apple would not be limiting anything that a customer gets today. they would be enhancing it.
[quote]They don't fit in all PC drive bays...one reason why the DVR-A04 (which only increases DVD read speed) was rushed out to market. The DVR-A03 didn't fit in many cases.<hr></blockquote>
ah.. ok. Thank you
:cool:
[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
<strong>
1.) I knew you were gonna say that about firewire 2. I don't know the details of if it is ready or not but its been a long time and its long overdue. I believe devices have been announced that use it, Apple is a kep player in firewire, you would think they would have it by now at all costs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think Apple really didn't want to add IEEE 1394b to this revision of the Power Mac because aside from still not being ready, it would have been such a subdued introduction. Apple wants to announce 1394b at a big event...like, oh, say MacWorld Expo SF. The stop-gap Mirrored-Drive-Door Power Macs just weren't going to cut it.
[quote]2.) 8x AGP is on most new boards no? This is a new product that will carry apple for at least 5 months. It's available to use. WHY NOT USE IT? doesn't make much sense to me unless there are other technical factors I don't know about... which may very well be the case<hr></blockquote>
8x AGP is on some boards...Tom's Hardware recently reviewed a pair of boards that had 8x AGP...one had Serial ATA. With both Serial ATA and 8x AGP, there really aren't that many products that use those techs. Matrox is lame and won't make a Mac Parhelia. ATi says the RADEON 9700 Mac drivers won't be here for 4-5 months. nVidia is mum on all specifics of their next generation video cards, so you know they won't have a tangible product for some time to come.
[quote]what's the difference between providing no speakers and people having options and providing speakers and people still having options? speakers. that's it. by providing speakers Apple would not be limiting anything that a customer gets today. they would be enhancing it.<hr></blockquote>
Well, I feel the Pro Speakers are 'O.K.' They're optional, and a pro really has an unlimited number of speakers to choose from. I really don't see how having moderately better Pro Speakers would change anything, other than stack up in a warehouse somewhere...or if they weren't optional, piss off people that would rather save the money. On a related note, Apple *should* be putting better on-board sound into the Power Macs. To me this is much more important than the speaker issue.
And yeah, the DVR-A03 is pretty long. It's just under an inch longer than a standard optical drive, though I guess one other reason why the DVR-A04 was released was because it costs Pioneer roughly half as much to manufacture vs the DVR-A03.
Many times it seems they are always a few steps behind.
Sure, the performance between ATA133 and ATA100 are basically indistinguishable, for example... but when a hardcore PC person that may be thinking of switching reads through the specs and sees: ATA66 (just now 100), 133MHz FSB, ONE full 5.25 bay, no USB 2.... that person is gonna think we all smoke crack to be able to even think of buying a Mac.
Their Marketing department should have more say instead of revving up a stupid MHz myth (which people still dont buy and is wearing thin on me as well). Why didnt they agree with Moto and rebrand the G4s like AMD did to compete with Intel? The AMD 2600, 2700... people think that it means 2.6GHz, 2.7GHz.... and thats far from the truth.
Come on Apple... market share aint getting any bigger.... at all.
Make the jump to somekind of X86 hybrid processor and get your act together and give us the damn goods.
PS: I turned on my ooooooooold 266Mhz Compaq for a friend to use and the damn thing, with Win98 and 32MB ram, was rendering web pages faster than my 6 month old iBook 600Mhz 384MB Mac... thats just SO sad. No actually, thats pathetic.
I think AMD's PR scheme is going to haunt them finally. Now that a 2.5 GHz P4 is as cheap as an Athlon XP 2600+, Intel will gain an even bigger share of the muscle desktops.
And for me at least, I've stuck with Apple largely because of PPC. There's mystique to using alternative hardware vs using x86. Yes, I'm a freak.
Second...Applenut's name, gota have respect for him too, haha
(not ment to get either party mad, just some fun)
Has apple ever released a new maching after a mediocre revision so quickly? I kind think MWNY would be when apple wants to release new amazing machines. (but by the time they do, PC industry will be 12months ahead instead of 9...not saying PC's are better, but they are ahead speedwise). Since apple is waiting for a major revision, wouldn't it need a new chip for that, and IBM doesn't have any chips ready, i thought they were going to introduce a possibility in oct. But a G4 with FW2, USB2, 80GB HD (min.), and brand spank'n new processors would definatly make me a happy camper...with new case of course.
-Although i hear the new machines are pretty damn fast, havn't heard any bad real life reviews, only HW spec bashing (which is somewhat understandable)
I sense someone using Internet Explorer...
<strong>
I sense someone using Internet Explorer...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Mozilla 1.1 for the most part... Web browsing on a Mac is like driving a rusty pin through your pinky.
browsing, webcam support, and scanner support is pathetic on OS X. Only scanner support is getting marginally better.
<strong>I turned on my ooooooooold 266Mhz Compaq for a friend to use and the damn thing, with Win98 and 32MB ram, was rendering web pages faster than my 6 month old iBook 600Mhz 384MB Mac... thats just SO sad. No actually, thats pathetic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not even a fair comparison to compare Windows 98 to OSX. And if you find it worth while to complain about how your iBook seems to be loading pages slower than a 266mhz compaq. Why don't you try loading XP on that 266mhz compaq
[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: BrianMacOS ]
[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: BrianMacOS ]</p>
TigerWoods99, 1, get on topic or stay out of here.
J :cool:
PS Hi EmAn's Mom
[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: Jamie ]</p>
Better hardware but more expensive is so clearly and obviously wrong. People want to spend LESS, not more, even pros. The more expensive your products get, the smaller your potential market gets. Everything and anything mentioned here should already be on ALL Apple's machines (DDR, Ghz+ CPU's MINIMUM, USB2, firewire 2). Currently, their price'performance ranges from OK (on a couple of models) to pathetic on everything else. They need to find a way to get better AT A LOWER PRICE. Thinking that it's somehow OK to make pricier machines in order to make more powerful machines will only serve to accelerate Apple's transformation into a purveyor of exclusively high-end solutions. Solutions, I might add, that even the majority of 'pros' will not be able to justify (on a purely cost basis)
Apple is playing a dangerous game of brinksmanship with it's installed base of pro users. Many have a lot of money tied up in software investment: even though a FAR FASTER PC is FAR CHEAPER, duplicating the software on each desk in even a small design firm gets very expensive very quickly. However, at some point it's just easier to rip the bandage off fast and go PC (software and all). The OS hardly matters to a user who boots into 2 or 3 pro apps exclusively, put an icon on the desktop and you never have to see windows if you don't want to.
Look at schools, I have a price list (pre-cyclops mac) handy. The discounts are nothing more than the individual edu discount. That is awful, period. I can't recommend macs to a single school at those prices, not when I could literally put 2-3 times as many PC machines in the classrooms for the same price. Even if 25% of the PC's spontaneously combust, we're still well ahead of the game.
Edu just hits this wall earlier 'cause the needs of students are minimal. Frankly, they shouldn't be able to do that much on a computer (unsupervised) anyway. Office, library catalogues and search tools, are what the majority need. Move on up to university and you can add statistical packages and other scientific teaching tool areas (NONE of which need a mac) and you're still gettinbg a lot more for a lot less.
Business has all the same concerns, and so do pros, but for reasons of habit and creative process Apple holds on to a lot of it's business when it wouldn't deserve to. Still, the price barrier is ther too.
How many 3-d pros use PC's? Isn't that a creative area? Shouldn't Apple dominate there? But they don't. They get smacked silly. what happens when their little A/V niche no loinger justifies itself? At the rate of hardware development in PC land machines that render everything you could ask of a vieo system in real time are just around the corner. Will you be so gung ho about FCP when you have to wait for HiDef renders to complete while a cheaper solution produces your effects and transitions instantaneously. Interface only gets you so far. There is more than enough competing software that might not be as pretty but is just as functional (if not more so).
You don't solve this problem with machines that are a lot faster at the expense of bein a lot more expensive. If the only way to get a competing mac box is to produce a $10 000 US machine in order to beat a 5000 usd PC machine, then you're still losing, and to top it off, you're losing in an even more limited market.
The DP867 is a decent deal 'cause it manages to compete with an SP 2.53 P4 for at least similar money, the higher end machine would get trounced by a PC box of similar cost. The disparity would only get more pronounced as Apple tried to climb up-market.
<strong>
It's not even a fair comparison to compare Windows 98 to OSX. And if you find it worth while to complain about how your iBook seems to be loading pages slower than a 266mhz compaq. Why don't you try loading XP on that 266mhz compaq
[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: BrianMacOS ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
The only problem with that is that there never was a 266MHz iBook
I think AGP8x isn't really a concern right now, considering I doubt more than a small percentage of off the shelf PCs have this technology. Most of the graphics cards coming out now will only be saturated by the 4x bus, so you aren't going to see huge performance hits.
Firewire 2 doesn't exist yet, so Apple will implement this technology when it's out. USB 2 isn't really that important right now, since most devices you hook up can't really take advantage of that speed (except hard drives).
You're exactly right, Apple is just senseless usually. It is really that hard for them to create a case with ample drive bays? Is it really that hard for them to implement current technologies into their computers? No, so do it!
[ 09-02-2002: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
Keep it on topic.
Prices shouldn't have to rise to include a decent set of speakers, a better more professional mouse, newer technologies in the machine, etc.
Apple's PowerMacs are priced ridiculously because they are afraid to abandon a price structure that they have used since Jobs returned.
to go from 1699 to 3299 and for that mney to get dual 1.25 instead of dual 867, 256MB more of RAM, 60GB more of HD, combo to a superdrive and a marginally better video card is pathetic.
the lowend price is good, but Apple tries to make a killing on the high ends simply because they want the products spaced out price wise and that's what they have always done.
Pricing should be more like 1699, 2199, 2799. even that is stretching.
Personally, if Apple stuck a Superdrive in the dual 867 and kept the price I think it woud be their biggest selling product. You know they can do it. even if the margins are a tad lower after it. At least they haven't really neutered this low end with the exception of not getting the new bus.
How would this be wrong? There has ALWAYS been a market for good, better, best. You name the product there is a low, mid and high end..whether you're talking cars, clothing, housewares etc. Yes your marketshare is smaller but your profits are higher. It's a balancing thing. I think you got Pro's mixed up with standard consumers. I don't hear Pro's wringing their hands about the price of computers Matsu. If you purchase your Hardware for your business what you purchase is TAX DEDUCTABLE. That's the difference between Pros and Consumers in the US. Price is much less of an issue than you claim..and I know becaue I've sold to Pro's enough.
[quote] Apple is playing a dangerous game of brinksmanship with it's installed base of pro users. Many have a lot of money tied up in software investment: even though a FAR FASTER PC is FAR CHEAPER, duplicating the software on each desk in even a small design firm gets very expensive very quickly. However, at some point it's just easier to rip the bandage off fast and go PC (software and all). The OS hardly matters to a user who boots into 2 or 3 pro apps exclusively, put an icon on the desktop and you never have to see windows if you don't want to. <hr></blockquote>
Really were are the fleeing Mac users?? Apple has maintened their marketshare in content creation and have expanded with Final Cut Pro. You can right all CAPS if you want but your post does not become any stronger. I'd guess that Pros would have to have PC be a minumum of twice as fast before contemplating switching. The OS always matters. Administration is always a factor..even the best systems require maintainence. This view is very myopic and wrong.
[quote] Look at schools, I have a price list (pre-cyclops mac) handy. The discounts are nothing more than the individual edu discount. That is awful, period. I can't recommend macs to a single school at those prices, not when I could literally put 2-3 times as many PC machines in the classrooms for the same price. Even if 25% of the PC's spontaneously combust, we're still well ahead of the game. <hr></blockquote>
Great. You've just saved your client a few dollars on the Hardware and them cost them on the backend in much higher admin fees. Better add another Sys Admin's yearly salary into your quote. %25 PC's may combust but trust me more will need constant administration..that's what will kill your TCO.
[quote] Edu just hits this wall earlier 'cause the needs of students are minimal. Frankly, they shouldn't be able to do that much on a computer (unsupervised) anyway. Office, library catalogues and search tools, are what the majority need. Move on up to university and you can add statistical packages and other scientific teaching tool areas (NONE of which need a mac) and you're still gettinbg a lot more for a lot less. <hr></blockquote>
Why would you presume to think you have identified the needs of every school using computers? This is flat out conjecture and the savvy use of computers and tech varies widely depending on the Districts and budgets here in the Greater Seattle area.
[quote] Business has all the same concerns, and so do pros, but for reasons of habit and creative process Apple holds on to a lot of it's business when it wouldn't deserve to. Still, the price barrier is ther too <hr></blockquote>
Matsu you're a one trick pony. Again price is NOT that much of a factor for anyone who can get a tax deductions on hardware and software. Your arguement for everything is Price. Apple has sub $1000 machines but it's obvious that you will not be satisfied until Apple ships a sub 1k tower. You're being blinded by your own wants.
[quote] How many 3-d pros use PC's? Isn't that a creative area? Shouldn't Apple dominate there? But they don't. They get smacked silly. what happens when their little A/V niche no loinger justifies itself? At the rate of hardware development in PC land machines that render everything you could ask of a vieo system in real time are just around the corner. Will you be so gung ho about FCP when you have to wait for HiDef renders to complete while a cheaper solution produces your effects and transitions instantaneously. Interface only gets you so far. There is more than enough competing software that might not be as pretty but is just as functional (if not more so). <hr></blockquote>
Ummm lightwave, Maya, Cinema4D. You're talking out your ass as usual. Apple's had OpenGL for what 3 years now? What did you expect. They've made plenty of gains in the 3D space. Tell me about this Hardware Development just around the corner? Funny how everything you say is formed in a rant with no technical backing. I feel for your clients.
[quote] You don't solve this problem with machines that are a lot faster at the expense of bein a lot more expensive. If the only way to get a competing mac box is to produce a $10 000 US machine in order to beat a 5000 usd PC machine, then you're still losing, and to top it off, you're losing in an even more limited market. <hr></blockquote>
Where'd these numbers come from...yes your ass. Total BS.
[quote] The DP867 is a decent deal 'cause it manages to compete with an SP 2.53 P4 for at least similar money, the higher end machine would get trounced by a PC box of similar cost. The disparity would only get more pronounced as Apple tried to climb up-market. <hr></blockquote>
Why do you waste your and our time reading this bunk. It's obvious that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're rants invariably consist of harping about money. Your posts never have any substantive technical information nor any well thought out pro's and cons. You're a one trick pony..a sham. Honestly do you think anyone is really listening to your drivel?
Please..spare us the vitriolic babble.