Video shows early competing iPhone prototypes developed by Tony Fadell and Scott Forstall

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 41
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,455member

    I honestly would love to see Forestall back at Apple. I think iOS has really gone stagnant after iOS 7. It's a heck of a lot of more of the same. Don't get me wrong I love my iPad Pro with Pencil, and I love my iPhone SE. But my iPhone SE is the same design that was there when Scott was there, and the software UI hasn't moved that much at all. And I think he probably could have gone along with a flatter UI. Sometimes I wonder if Ive just wanted Forestall out because of personal conflicts and didn't actually have much planned for the UI aside from flattening it. Where as Forestall had a TON of ideas.

    Scott was a colleague and one of the main architects of AppKit. Ives doesn't know a damn thing about Software Design or Development. Steve Jobs never would have ousted Forstall. He was one of his most favored top architects at NeXT and Apple. Scott was very good at his job.

    The problem we see isn't just a few folks, but a lot of key architects from NeXT left between 2007-2012. When you lose people like Bertrand Serlet you lose far more than someone like Chris Lattner. Bertrand was a guiding force behind Openstep and later OS X. He is brilliant as well as being a very engaging and personable human being, who not unlike a conductor of an Orchestra knew how to make it all cohesively work and meet deadlines.

    Also, losing the creator of the Mach Microkernel and Senior VP Avie Tevanian was a monumental blow that most people don't grasp.

    yes, I dont think people realise that Apple 2.0 was basically driven by NEXT employees, and they tended to stay around for Jobs even when rich. Also these guys were the most qualified VPs in the industry, as they werent just political motivated VPs but there because of their engineering ability. 
  • Reply 22 of 41
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,455member
    I honestly would love to see Forestall back at Apple. I think iOS has really gone stagnant after iOS 7. It's a heck of a lot of more of the same. Don't get me wrong I love my iPad Pro with Pencil, and I love my iPhone SE. But my iPhone SE is the same design that was there when Scott was there, and the software UI hasn't moved that much at all. And I think he probably could have gone along with a flatter UI. Sometimes I wonder if Ive just wanted Forestall out because of personal conflicts and didn't actually have much planned for the UI aside from flattening it. Where as Forestall had a TON of ideas.

    Scott was a colleague and one of the main architects of AppKit. Ives doesn't know a damn thing about Software Design or Development. Steve Jobs never would have ousted Forstall. He was one of his most favored top architects at NeXT and Apple. Scott was very good at his job.

    The problem we see isn't just a few folks, but a lot of key architects from NeXT left between 2007-2012. When you lose people like Bertrand Serlet you lose far more than someone like Chris Lattner. Bertrand was a guiding force behind Openstep and later OS X. He is brilliant as well as being a very engaging and personable human being, who not unlike a conductor of an Orchestra knew how to make it all cohesively work and meet deadlines.

    Also, losing the creator of the Mach Microkernel and Senior VP Avie Tevanian was a monumental blow that most people don't grasp.

    The fact that you got 3 informatives for this informative posts shows how the misuse of that button is still an issue. I wasnt sure if 3 people were disagreeing with you or not. 
  • Reply 23 of 41
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,455member

    MacPro said:
    I honestly would love to see Forestall back at Apple. I think iOS has really gone stagnant after iOS 7. It's a heck of a lot of more of the same. Don't get me wrong I love my iPad Pro with Pencil, and I love my iPhone SE. But my iPhone SE is the same design that was there when Scott was there, and the software UI hasn't moved that much at all. And I think he probably could have gone along with a flatter UI. Sometimes I wonder if Ive just wanted Forestall out because of personal conflicts and didn't actually have much planned for the UI aside from flattening it. Where as Forestall had a TON of ideas.
    It does seem a shame Scott was skewered by skeuomorphism!  I think he'd have come around to a flatter interface too. As to maps, I don't know enough to say if he was just a fall guy or really to blame.  He was certainly a great asset to Apple over the years and as an aside a very good presenter too.  However, I think talk of him being Steve's replacement were premature and not helpful to his career at Apple.  I too wonder if that went to his head making him unbearable for Cook and Ives.  One day soon I'm sure there will be a movie.
    The Apple Maps code was, and is, fine. The problem was the lack of data, and they should probably have released it for the US first as  a default, allowing beta testers from the rest of the world. 
  • Reply 24 of 41
    I honestly would love to see Forestall back at Apple. I think iOS has really gone stagnant after iOS 7. It's a heck of a lot of more of the same. Don't get me wrong I love my iPad Pro with Pencil, and I love my iPhone SE. But my iPhone SE is the same design that was there when Scott was there, and the software UI hasn't moved that much at all. And I think he probably could have gone along with a flatter UI. Sometimes I wonder if Ive just wanted Forestall out because of personal conflicts and didn't actually have much planned for the UI aside from flattening it. Where as Forestall had a TON of ideas.

    Scott was a colleague and one of the main architects of AppKit. Ives doesn't know a damn thing about Software Design or Development. Steve Jobs never would have ousted Forstall. He was one of his most favored top architects at NeXT and Apple. Scott was very good at his job.

    Citing what you think a dead man would have done under circumstances he never experienced is an exercise in fictional narrative. Jobs wasn't here for the circumstances and there's no way of knowing what he would or would not have done. He let very talented members of the original Mac team go and it didn't seem to bother him (read Andy Hertzfield's accounts at www.folklore.org). 
  • Reply 25 of 41
    ...
    edited January 11
  • Reply 26 of 41
    calicali Posts: 2,703member
    I don't think Scott should have been fired.

    sometimes I think Cook did it as a new CEO to show people he wasn't fu**ing around. 
  • Reply 27 of 41
    cali said:
    I don't think Scott should have been fired.

    sometimes I think Cook did it as a new CEO to show people he wasn't fu**ing around. 
    Without knowing why he was let go (which none of those involved have commented on) it's impossible to form a valuable opinion on the matter, imo. 
  • Reply 28 of 41
    tmaytmay Posts: 1,642member
    I don't think Scott should have been fired.
    Forestall was not a team player at that point, and Mansfield and Jony were key in him being fired. That is the rumor behind the firing.

    Mansfield laid the groundwork for the A series success which has been a key to Apple's continued iOS hardware lead, and he now leads the automotive team. Jony established Industrial Design as part of Apple's identity and brand and that continues today. Neither of those two could work with Forestall at that point, and both were more important to Apple's success than Forestall.

    It was an easy decision in the end for Cook.
    brucemc
  • Reply 29 of 41
    boredumbboredumb Posts: 1,264member
    nht said:
    boredumb said:
    @Mdriftmeyer:
    "Tim Cook seems to prefer being 6 months ahead and thus irritates the hell out of those more in favor of Steve's 18 months ahead of the competition. If you are just barely ahead of the competition most people will overlook your innovation as nothing special. But nearly two years and everyone will be a copycat."

    Brilliant - just very well said...
    Given that the watch is still more than a year ahead of the competition I'm thinking this is bullshit.  Not every Apple product was 18 months ahead even under Jobs.  

    Take Marcs comment with a large grain of salt.  
    I think more than a few people are gradually coming to the conclusion
    that the Apple mission statement is slowly sliding towards:  
    "Nothing Wrong with Settling for Just a Wee Bit Better than Them..."
    So I'll save my grain for your assessment, instead.
  • Reply 30 of 41
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,136member
    asdasd said:
    The Apple Maps code was, and is, fine. The problem was the lack of data, and they should probably have released it for the US first as  a default, allowing beta testers from the rest of the world. 
    The problems at the launch of Apple Maps were a lot more serious than simply lack of data. There was a lot of absolutely wrong data.

    As far as releasing it only in the US first, in a way that is what they did. It was pretty buggy in the US, but in the rest of the world it was completely unusable. They really didn't have a choice though, because the situation with the Google partnership had fallen apart, at least that was the rumor, so I don't see how that was Scott's fault. I think his dismissal was entirely due to personality clashes.

    Fortunately the problems with Apple Maps are mostly in the past. It works quite well now, although they are still a bit light on street information in some developing countries.
    Soli
  • Reply 31 of 41
    SoliSoli Posts: 2,080member
    volcan said:
    They really didn't have a choice though, because the situation with the Google partnership had fallen apart, at least that was the rumor, so I don't see how that was Scott's fault. I think his dismissal was entirely due to personality clashes.
    This is one few—perhaps only—times in which an early release was an unfortunate requirement. Perhaps they shouldn't have trusted Google as long as they did and started work on their own mapping software sooner, but not signing a new contract with Google that gave them extensive detail of Apple user data via Maps was the smart and ethical move.
  • Reply 32 of 41
    Hmm...I wonder what Apple execs think of Tony Fadell giving an interview on this. I seem to remember reading that some inside Apple felt like he was taking credit for things he didn't deserve.

    http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/11/14240918/apple-interview-ipod-iphone-prototype-tony-fadell
  • Reply 33 of 41
    No one can say with Steve would or wouldn't have done. Also it's possible Forstall acted different while Steve was around because Steve was able to keep him in check.
  • Reply 34 of 41
    nhtnht Posts: 3,315member
    boredumb said:
    nht said:
    boredumb said:
    @Mdriftmeyer:
    "Tim Cook seems to prefer being 6 months ahead and thus irritates the hell out of those more in favor of Steve's 18 months ahead of the competition. If you are just barely ahead of the competition most people will overlook your innovation as nothing special. But nearly two years and everyone will be a copycat."

    Brilliant - just very well said...
    Given that the watch is still more than a year ahead of the competition I'm thinking this is bullshit.  Not every Apple product was 18 months ahead even under Jobs.  

    Take Marcs comment with a large grain of salt.  
    I think more than a few people are gradually coming to the conclusion
    that the Apple mission statement is slowly sliding towards:  
    "Nothing Wrong with Settling for Just a Wee Bit Better than Them..."
    So I'll save my grain for your assessment, instead.
    Watch - a year+ ahead of market
    AirPod (W1 chip) - a year+ ahead of market
    A10 processor - a year ahead of market.

    It's frankly amazing that the A9 processor has the nearly same (geek bench) benchmarks as the current Qualcom 821 flagship.

    Apple SE A9 @1.8Ghz - multicore 4022
    Google Pixel Qualcomm 821 @ 1.6Ghz - multicore 4028

    While the Exynos 8890 does better than the A9 in the multi-core benchmark in the single core benchmark the A9 trounces it.  2406 for the iPhone SE vs 1784 for the Galaxy S7.

    So the iPhone 7 and iPads about about year ahead of flagship Android phones in terms of performance.

  • Reply 35 of 41
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 427member
    I honestly would love to see Forestall back at Apple. I think iOS has really gone stagnant after iOS 7. It's a heck of a lot of more of the same. Don't get me wrong I love my iPad Pro with Pencil, and I love my iPhone SE. But my iPhone SE is the same design that was there when Scott was there, and the software UI hasn't moved that much at all. And I think he probably could have gone along with a flatter UI. Sometimes I wonder if Ive just wanted Forestall out because of personal conflicts and didn't actually have much planned for the UI aside from flattening it. Where as Forestall had a TON of ideas.

    Scott was a colleague and one of the main architects of AppKit. Ives doesn't know a damn thing about Software Design or Development. Steve Jobs never would have ousted Forstall. He was one of his most favored top architects at NeXT and Apple. Scott was very good at his job.

    The problem we see isn't just a few folks, but a lot of key architects from NeXT left between 2007-2012. When you lose people like Bertrand Serlet you lose far more than someone like Chris Lattner. Bertrand was a guiding force behind Openstep and later OS X. He is brilliant as well as being a very engaging and personable human being, who not unlike a conductor of an Orchestra knew how to make it all cohesively work and meet deadlines.

    Also, losing the creator of the Mach Microkernel and Senior VP Avie Tevanian was a monumental blow that most people don't grasp.

    leighr said:
    Have to say that I miss Scott's work. Still hope that one day he will return to Apple.
    I too because I think Apple has lots of software challenges still ahead.   especially with AI.

    If S.F. Was fired because of maps why hasn't anyone been fired because of maps
    It still doesn't measure up.

    I was listening to an apple podcast over Christmas - New Years .   One of the guests was talking about how Texas toll road 130 had beef on Google maps but six months later it still wasn't on iMaps.

    Yes it's there now.   But it does seem like some things take a person with a voice or platform to complain.

    One of the reasons I think Cook pushed him out. He didn't belong in the Tim and Jony clubhouse.

    I would like to see him back at Apple maybe as an independent member of the board of directors.   

  • Reply 36 of 41
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 427member
    Soli said:
    I honestly would love to see Forestall back at Apple. I think iOS has really gone stagnant after iOS 7. It's a heck of a lot of more of the same. Don't get me wrong I love my iPad Pro with Pencil, and I love my iPhone SE. But my iPhone SE is the same design that was there when Scott was there, and the software UI hasn't moved that much at all. And I think he probably could have gone along with a flatter UI. Sometimes I wonder if Ive just wanted Forestall out because of personal conflicts and didn't actually have much planned for the UI aside from flattening it. Where as Forestall had a TON of ideas.
    If you look at what has changed from iOS 7 to iOS 10 (and we get to see iOS 11 in only 5 months) you'll see a lot of changes. Personally I love the direction they went with iOS 7 and iOS 6 looked so outdated even back when it was new. It was long overdue for a change.
    iOS7 was a pain to look at and work with.   It went way overboard and didn't get back to a nice point till 8.   I always worry now what they will do to make thinks harder to work with even if it looks a little nicer.
  • Reply 37 of 41
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 427member
    Maybe Fadall still has an axe to grind against Scott Forstall.   His iPhone design/ OS lost out. 
    Forstall wasn't let go because he didn't support a "flat" UI. That's ridiculous. Go back and read the press release and then some of the reporting around that time. There were reports that Bob Mansfield wouldn't meet with him unless Tim Cook was present. There were reports that he was slagging off other teams to his team members in emails. In a BBC interview Tony Fadell said Forstall " got what he deserved". None of that has anything to do with flat UI.

  • Reply 38 of 41
    k2kw said:
    Maybe Fadall still has an axe to grind against Scott Forstall.   His iPhone design/ OS lost out. 
    Forstall wasn't let go because he didn't support a "flat" UI. That's ridiculous. Go back and read the press release and then some of the reporting around that time. There were reports that Bob Mansfield wouldn't meet with him unless Tim Cook was present. There were reports that he was slagging off other teams to his team members in emails. In a BBC interview Tony Fadell said Forstall " got what he deserved". None of that has anything to do with flat UI.

    And Bob Mansfield? I've never heard anyone say a bad word about him.
  • Reply 39 of 41
    asdasd said:
    I honestly would love to see Forestall back at Apple. I think iOS has really gone stagnant after iOS 7. It's a heck of a lot of more of the same. Don't get me wrong I love my iPad Pro with Pencil, and I love my iPhone SE. But my iPhone SE is the same design that was there when Scott was there, and the software UI hasn't moved that much at all. And I think he probably could have gone along with a flatter UI. Sometimes I wonder if Ive just wanted Forestall out because of personal conflicts and didn't actually have much planned for the UI aside from flattening it. Where as Forestall had a TON of ideas.

    Scott was a colleague and one of the main architects of AppKit. Ives doesn't know a damn thing about Software Design or Development. Steve Jobs never would have ousted Forstall. He was one of his most favored top architects at NeXT and Apple. Scott was very good at his job.

    The problem we see isn't just a few folks, but a lot of key architects from NeXT left between 2007-2012. When you lose people like Bertrand Serlet you lose far more than someone like Chris Lattner. Bertrand was a guiding force behind Openstep and later OS X. He is brilliant as well as being a very engaging and personable human being, who not unlike a conductor of an Orchestra knew how to make it all cohesively work and meet deadlines.

    Also, losing the creator of the Mach Microkernel and Senior VP Avie Tevanian was a monumental blow that most people don't grasp.

    The fact that you got 3 informatives for this informative posts shows how the misuse of that button is still an issue. I wasnt sure if 3 people were disagreeing with you or not. 

    How is it a misuse of the button? It could simply mean that 3 people found is post informative. This isn't the Funny button that people used to register a dislike.
  • Reply 40 of 41
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 427member
    Soli said:
    I honestly would love to see Forestall back at Apple. I think iOS has really gone stagnant after iOS 7. It's a heck of a lot of more of the same. Don't get me wrong I love my iPad Pro with Pencil, and I love my iPhone SE. But my iPhone SE is the same design that was there when Scott was there, and the software UI hasn't moved that much at all. And I think he probably could have gone along with a flatter UI. Sometimes I wonder if Ive just wanted Forestall out because of personal conflicts and didn't actually have much planned for the UI aside from flattening it. Where as Forestall had a TON of ideas.
    Forstall wasn't let go because he didn't support a "flat" UI. That's ridiculous. Go back and read the press release and then some of the reporting around that time. There were reports that Bob Mansfield wouldn't meet with him unless Tim Cook was present. There were reports that he was slagging off other teams to his team members in emails. In a BBC interview Tony Fadell said Forstall " got what he deserved". None of that has anything to do with flat UI.
    Was there a change in his attitude because he wasn't chosen as Jobs' successor and/or is this a situation where he was always difficult but was able to be controlled by Jobs since he started back at NeXT?

    Steve spent most of his time at PIXAR after 1993 and the release of Openstep for Intel. We weren't making black hardware anymore and PIXAR was working on Toy Story. Steve didn't invest much time at NeXT until WebObjects and even then later he was mainly back at PIXAR. When the merger was a possibility he immediately re-engaged on NeXT and the possibility of being the special consultant advisor that later became iCEO moved him from 100% PIXAR to 100% Apple.

    Steve was really a Hardware man. He expected the OS to work as meticulously as he expected the hardware to be both aesthetically ideal and as reliable as possible. He hated to have an idea and later discover it would take time to develop it. It's also one of the reasons he loved being on the forefront of controlling the OS and Hardware. It was also a problem for NeXT because instead of being just ahead of the industry curve we were always ten years ahead, which translated into no one being interested.

    Tim Cook seems to prefer being 6 months ahead and thus irritates the hell out of those more in favor of Steve's 18 months ahead of the competition. If you are just barely ahead of the competition most people will overlook your innovation as nothing special. But nearly two years and everyone will be a copycat.

    Scott was very much respected, but let's be honest, a lot of the folks today who are Senior VPs weren't even senior managers at NeXT. Most of the top brass moved on and out of the industry entirely after the merger. Some people are better at seeing the big picture and others have big egos who were given a huge title to match.

    Believe it or not, but Craig is a dick and butted heads with a lot of former colleagues he worked with at NeXT and later after he came back to Apple by leapfrogging others more qualified than himself. People rave about his ``keynote'' entertaining moments, but he's actually not the most laid back person to be around. Forestall was far more qualified to demo OS X, iOS than Federighi ever would be. Craig's focus at NeXT was EOF (Enterprise Objects Framework) and that was it. Scott was one of the principal architects of AppKit and much more.

    A fellow colleague of mine and friend to this day that was better than all of them at charisma, showmanship and always made the best in-house demos is Mark Tacchi. He garnered fame by creating the Java Gamelet Toolkit on a whim, while at NeXT. He's the founder and CEO of Vendini. Also founded one other company named HipBone.

    If anyone would have been Steve's successor it would have been Mark, but during the merger people offered him a ton of cash to bolt and run a new startup software engineering division at more than double what Apple was willing to pay. He's just an all around great person who knows how to engage, is amazingly compassionate and a keen eye for building teams, while having a grounded ego.

    Guys like Faddell are pure opportunists. Guys like Tacchi wanted to work at NeXT because of it's unique vision and its founder's history. They are rare.

    Thanks for your insights.    I've long believed that if Forstall had failed at designing and creating iOS the iPhone may have been a failure.

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