All-new Mac Pro with modular design, Apple-branded pro displays coming in 2018

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  • Reply 101 of 210
    avon b7 said:
    Two things to applaud. Communication and admitting they got the design wrong.
    Read it again. They bet on parallel processing in the GPUs, but the industry didn't move there. It's not so much as the "design" being wrong, as it the prediction of industry computing trends.
    I found the frankness of them admitting that they backed themselves into a thermal corner quite enlightening - that kind of transparency was quite refreshing. I wonder how Apple's implementation of parallel GPU's differs from SLI with nVidia cards or CrossFire in AMD cards. Conceptually may be quite similar but the devil is in the details...
    watto_cobradysamoria
  • Reply 102 of 210
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 1,685member
    John Gruber who was in the room has a great piece on this. In it he reveals MP customers are a single-digit of total mac sales. He believes closer to the 1% than 9:

    http://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives
    Finally, someone who's actually read an account from someone who was actually there.

    To begin with, folk seem to be carrying on as though Apple have never admitted they made a mistake before. May I remind the senile around here about Maps.

    From reading Daring Fireball, it appears that the mistake was in where they thought the market was going. They thought that external GPUs hooked in through Thunderbolt were going to be the way forward; sadly, they got that wrong. I'm not really sure how you back yourself into a thermal corner though. Did they think that anyone apart from them was working to make components run more efficiently and put out less heat?

    So 30% of Apple sales go to professionals, who are served by the iMac; of the that 30%, between 1 and 9% (and I think 3% is optimistic) is made up of Mac Pro users. 

    Judging by these figures, I'd say that the whining will continue next year when these machines are released because they will be hellishly expensive. 

    I said before that a new Mac Pro was on the way, I also said that when it arrives, people here wouldn't like it. That's not really a clever prediction though; folk like to complain, that's all there is  to it.

    Still, the new monitor is a surprise. I did not see that coming, and I think if LG hadn't drop the ball from such a ridiculous height then Apple may have been happy to let them carry on. Unfortunately, LG have made such a poor job of this that I think it's best that Apple take it back from them. I imagine LG will still be making the panels though.

    Why have they announced it now? To shut people up. The noise was in danger of distracting their marketing efforts for the iPads and the future iMacs. Now that they've cleared the air then it's one less distraction. The only thing they have to worry about it is the inevitable teeth-gnashing when the new Mac Pro is eventually released, but one problem at a time.

    Here's the thing: when this super-expandable Mac Pro is released, about 0.5% of the so-called 'professionals' here will buy it, and about half that number will ever open the case. Half of that number will actually expand it.
    edited April 4 tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 103 of 210
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 1,685member
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    So Apple is incapable of walking and chewing gun at the same time? How long does it take to design a tower that serves the market- we do not give a crap about styling. Take the Pre-Trashcan form factor and update it for the current market- that should take a small team little time.

    A company as big and well heeled as Apple should be able to serve a select small market and waste gobs of money on crap like Animated Balloons on Text Messages and Facebook integration. Serving specialty markets is common in business all the time- you do not have to make a killing on every product line. The line should have been kept up to date all along and the Black Trashcan was a tragic mistake.

    In Medicine, Hospitals and Clinics commonly offer necessary services that are break even at best because it is in the best interest of the customers. Mammography is a prime example- unless you do huge volume you will never make a dime providing the service, but it is done anyhow. Apple makes truckloads on iPhones and should be able to subsidize the high end pro market.
    Comparing Apple to a Hospital....................LOLOLOOLLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
    I am comparing businesses. And BTW, one of the markets Apple abandoned was high end Radiology Workstations so you could have your Trashcan and Facebook integration. Pro Computers do more than edit video, compose complex music, or maintain large databases.

    Apple is a business, a Hospital is a business, an Airline is a business, a Car Company is a business. Now you might want to fix your keyboard because it is either sticking on L, O and ! or you might want to grow up.
    Again comparing Apple to a Hospital.......................LOLOLOLOOLOLOOOLOLOOOLOLLOLOLOOOLLLOOL!!!!

    I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about if you think the business Apple runs is even comparable to a hospital.
    But Apple, IBM, etc. sell Macs and iDevices to hospitals, airlines... And apparently some Mac Pros and lots of maxed-out iMacs to IT in those businesses... if only for code development.

    That wasn't the point. DavidAlGreogory's point is that Apple should run there BUSINESS like a hospital. Which is totally and utterly ridiculous and ignorant.

    He said Hospitals run machinery that loses them money to serve a niche customer group and he expects Apple to do the same. He expects Apple to run its business like St Mary's Hospital. Ridiculous.
    No, his point is that Apple is a business -- not the same business as a hospital -- but a business, nonetheless!

    Apple realizes that there is great potential to sell Macs and iDevices to businesses (including hospitals) -- hence Apple's partnerships with IBM, Cisco, SAP...

    http://www.cio.com/article/3078053/ios/apples-enterprise-partnerships-big-and-small-start-to-pay-off.html

    Because it doesn't jibe with your one-size-fits-all vision of the future doesn't make it untrue.

    No that was not his point. Did you even read his original comment that I LOL over? Well here it is:

    "In Medicine, Hospitals and Clinics commonly offer necessary services that are break even at best because it is in the best interest of the customers. Mammography is a prime example- unless you do huge volume you will never make a dime providing the service, but it is done anyhow. Apple makes truckloads on iPhones and should be able to subsidize the high end pro market."

    So he's saying that since hospitals are willing to lose money on niche customers so should Apple. That is RIDICULOUS.  Apple is NOT a hospital.  Hospitals key core values is suppose to save lives. Apple is not in that business. 

    So saying Apple should run their Business like the Mayo Clinic is BEYOND IDIOTIC.

    Yes, I'm afraid you're right. 

    Apple doesn't use the money from one division to subsidise another. That is a poor way to run a tech business, ask Microsoft. They used Office to prop up the rest of the company for years; the result was that the rest of the company became fat, lazy and chaotic.

    Every Apple division has to support itself (though I imagine they all pay some tithe for the development of new products and services). Apple doesn't focus on the iPhone; it just looks that way because the mobile division has more money than everyone else … which they earned.

    If the company decides to start using the mobile profits to prop up other parts of the company rather than cutting those parts out, then you really should sell your shares.


    edited April 4 ration al
  • Reply 104 of 210
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,397member
    Apple has lost thousands of customers over the last 6-7 years to Windows.  The cheese graters got too old and the trash can was inadequate for many so they started looking at Windows machines and they liked what they saw (sort of).  The new Final Cut added to the exodus and really pissed off a lot of long time Mac users.  They moved over to Premiere or Avid, first on Macs and then later on Windows machines.  After Effects users did the same thing.  The end result is a ton of people who now won't even consider Apple hardware or software for editing or effects work for video post.  The serious 3D people left a long time ago because of the hardware limitations.

    While I applaud the Apple announcement today, I will have to wait and see what they bring to market.  They talked about one big heavy duty GPU - okay that's fine, but they should consider adding the ability to support a card cage filled with GPUs and maybe CPUs.  People in video and film have software that can use (even require) that sort of power.  DaVinci Resolve is one such system. Connect a AppleCage via USB C and fill it with GPUs or whatever - easy and peasy.  The long lost power users also liked the abiity to put four drives inside the old cheese graters.  It was often used as temporary storage for processing or loading etc.  Primary storage was usually a high speed RAID.  I know that sort of feature makes for a physically large computer, but these people don't care they want features that add versatility.  The old cheese graters had that in spades.  Need Fiber Channel, we got a card for that.  Need some new form of SCSI, got a card.  Need more GPU power, slap in a card.  Need some extra terabytes for a big job, slam in some drives.  This isn't hard to understand and doing it won't hurt the Apple brand.  It could help the brand if old users were to come home because this new comuter is insanely great.  We will see.
    edited April 4 dysamoria
  • Reply 105 of 210
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 1,051member
    So Apple is incapable of walking and chewing gun at the same time? How long does it take to design a tower that serves the market- we do not give a crap about styling. Take the Pre-Trashcan form factor and update it for the current market- that should take a small team little time.

    A company as big and well heeled as Apple should be able to serve a select small market and waste gobs of money on crap like Animated Balloons on Text Messages and Facebook integration. Serving specialty markets is common in business all the time- you do not have to make a killing on every product line. The line should have been kept up to date all along and the Black Trashcan was a tragic mistake.

    In Medicine, Hospitals and Clinics commonly offer necessary services that are break even at best because it is in the best interest of the customers. Mammography is a prime example- unless you do huge volume you will never make a dime providing the service, but it is done anyhow. Apple makes truckloads on iPhones and should be able to subsidize the high end pro market.

    They have a pro machine that is already packed with power. There was very little "urgency" for a new pro machine other than consumers that don't like the idea of paying full price for a 3-year old machine.

    It's not as simple as it may seem.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 106 of 210
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 4,694member
    The fact that they announced so far ahead probably reflects the fact that Mac Pro sales are so bad that they want to assure Pro users that they know there's a problem and they are working on it. They're trying to head off losing those users to Windows PC's. 
    I wish they would breathe some life back into the mini while they're at it. 
    Elvis has left the Building in Video. The tragic combination of iMovie Pro X ( d.b.a. FCPX) and the trashcan sent the editing world away from Apple and rightly so. Apple, with the attention span of a housefly, abandoned Aperture and those customers. They also ruined Logic Pro in a similar manner.

    As someone with a real Mac Pro Tower, who bought and used Final Cut Pro, Aperture and Logic I was and am not amused. It did not have to be this way.

    Apple has more money than any other company on the earth and huge human resources to devote to multiple product lines simultaneously as it is not the starving company of 1997 trying to remain afloat. They should be able to keep the Mac current while wasting money and people on crap like Beats. And , if it comes down to Planet of the Apps or a new Mac Pro, tell Eddie Cue to have a nice day and find a new job.

    Your shitty troll posts are so shitty. FCPX is a vastly improved version of final cut, if you actually ask the pros who fucking use it, and it has MORE features than the older one, while being more intuitive to use. Same with Logic Pro. But hey, I guess that's a trendy meme to say. Or, maybe you're the one with the attention of a house fly, since you were not willing to invest the small amount of time required to adapt to a better system?

    "They should be able to keep the Mac current while wasting money and people on crap like Beats. "

    Beats is EXTREMELY profitable, and because of that acquisition Apple now essentially owns the majority of the high end headphone market, while being to integrate its own technologies (W1) into these products to make them work even better with Apple's stuff, and vice versa, creating multiple incentives for consumers. Your insinuation that Beats is somehow losing Apple money is a flat out lie, or a falsity based on your grotesque ignorance. 
    suddenly newtonandrewj5790ration alwatto_cobramdriftmeyerRayz2016
  • Reply 107 of 210
    jmey267jmey267 Posts: 20member
    I hope it's not back to the cheese-grater size again. That was a hefty machine that really didn't offer much upgradability for its size. The transition from that design to the compact cylindrical Mac Pro made sense as it was only a small reduction in upgradability.
    Really, I have a Mac Pro that runs USB 3, has room for massive internal storage without a spaghetti bowl of cables, can be CPU upgraded in minutes, takes standard memory and can run rings around the Trashcan. The Mac Workstation design was a great job of HW engineering.
    USB 3 is old, "massive internal storage" means obsolete 3.5" spinning disks on a SATA II bus, lol, the newer Mac Pro also takes additional memory, and lol again. It was a decent bit of engineering in 2006, basically a retool of the G5 chassis. 
    Your a fool my ancient Mac Pro 5,1 is loaded with SSD's and spinning large raid drive, USB 3.1 and a GTX1080 not upgradable? You obviously don't know how to work on a computer do you?
    ration al
  • Reply 108 of 210

    As for an Apple-branded pro display, that announcement would appear to be an about-face for the company, after it suggested last year that it was permanently exiting the standalone monitor business. It instead partnered with LG Display for a pair of new ultra-high-resolution displays that connect over USB-C and Thunderbolt 3.
    Actually no, AI -- Apple never said they were leaving the monitor business. That was a "rumor", put forth by Verge's Nilay Patel, a prime anti-apple troll. No release, no announcement. 

    Just like how they have not said theyre leaving the wifi business, despite the rumors and your own articles and supposed sources.
    AI didn't say Apple said it was leaving the monitor business. They said "it was suggested" (passive verb, an AI favorite to obfuscate the subject of that sentence) that Apple was leaving exiting the standalone monitor business. So it seems they are agreeing with you.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 109 of 210
    Too late.

    I left them late last year (after 30 years) and can't see going back. Switching to Windows was SO much easier than I imagined it would be.

    Notice that there is NO promise to be more forthcoming with those of us who have to purchase equipment and NO promise that Apple won't go under their cone of silence again for another 4 years after they release something to replace their current old-timey Mac Pros.


  • Reply 110 of 210

    linkman said:
    linkman said:
    If this refresh/update comes out in 2018, then it's what, only three years late?
    Never good enough for some people. How miserable.
    It was released on December 19, 2013. The next update of ANY kind was April 4, 2017. In the computer world, that's a long time. Waiting until *maybe* 2018 or later for a significant upgrade to what is supposed to be the professional workstation model with huge amounts of processing power is simply asking for some dissatisfied customers.
    I'm sorry but there's simply nothing that Apple could do that would have sirisfied some of the people who post on the blogs and rumor sites. Nothing. Also, the fact that Apple didn't just drop the Mac Pro when they said in the DF piece that it accounts for a single digit percentage of PRO users, (not overall users, not Mac users, but people who use a pro level app daily or at least once a week) is a very very good sign that all the whining about the doom of Apple and Tim Cook, yadda yadda, was a lot of wasted breath, typing, and energy.
    No, the MP is single-digit of ALL mac buyers: "Apple declined to describe the Mac Pro’s share of all Mac sales any more specifically than “a single-digit percent”, but my gut feeling is that the single digit is a lot closer to 1 than it is to 9."

    True. I misread that. Mea Culpa. However, as Sog pointed out. 500,000 mac Pros is a product worth dropping when you're a company who sells millions of other Macs and ios devices, so my point is the same.
  • Reply 111 of 210
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,911member

    All-new Mac Pro with modular design






    Oh, wait...

    Microsoft may have Pushed Apple to rethink their Mac Pro that will Debut in 2018 with a New Modular Form Factor

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2017/04/microsoft-may-have-pushed-apple-to-rethink-their-mac-pro-that-will-debut-in-2018-with-a-new-modular-form-factor-1.html

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 112 of 210
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,247member
    I just wish it was easier to build a hackintosh. I build lots of dual Xeon PCs running Linux. Usually a little more than an hour is all it takes to get the whole thing up and running. With a hackintosh it takes days of trial and error with all kinds of boot and audio issues and even when you do get it running you are limited to midrange hardware because there are limited choices that will work. 
    edited April 4 dysamoria
  • Reply 113 of 210
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,247member

    All-new Mac Pro with modular design


    Oh, wait...

    Microsoft may have Pushed Apple to rethink their Mac Pro that will Debut in 2018 with a New Modular Form Factor

    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2017/04/microsoft-may-have-pushed-apple-to-rethink-their-mac-pro-that-will-debut-in-2018-with-a-new-modular-form-factor-1.html

    There is a difference between something that is technically modular verses industry standard components. Pros don't want some Apple proprietary module, they want the best performing third party standard hardware they can get. Apple does not seem to "get" pros. Even with the old cheese grater Mac Pro they made it somewhat difficult to work on. I have an original model that I  thoroughly updated. By looking at he way they designed the CPU cooling plenum and the heatsinks, it was obvious that they did not intend for it to ever be opened. With a new modular Mac Pro, Apple will still probably figure out some way to screw it up.
    edited April 4
  • Reply 114 of 210
    appexappex Posts: 510member
    Brand new Apple Thunderbolt Display for brand new Mac Pro and brand new Mac mini. Awesome!
    watto_cobradysamoria
  • Reply 115 of 210
    sog35sog35 Posts: 12,367member



    As for an Apple-branded pro display, that announcement would appear to be an about-face for the company, after it suggested last year that it was permanently exiting the standalone monitor business
    No, they never suggested any such thing. It is an about-face for the tech media that drew its own (wrong) conclusions, as usual.
    But they allowed the notion they were out of the display business to linger on. I think had the LG display been better received Apple wouldn't be taking about new displays.
    So even tho wrong, you think you would have been right. Got it...Convenient world view.
    Huh? I really do believe if the LG display had been better received Apple might have thought twice about reviving their own display business. A lot of people besides me thought they were out of the display business for good. What's convenient is people whose opinions are Apple can never do wrong because then no matter what Apple does they're always right. ;)
    Apple never said they were out of the display business. You are making stuff up in your head
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 116 of 210
    sog35sog35 Posts: 12,367member
    welshdog said:
    Apple has lost thousands of customers over the last 6-7 years to Windows.  The cheese graters got too old and the trash can was inadequate for many so they started looking at Windows machines and they liked what they saw (sort of).  The new Final Cut added to the exodus and really pissed off a lot of long time Mac users.  They moved over to Premiere or Avid, first on Macs and then later on Windows machines.  After Effects users did the same thing.  The end result is a ton of people who now won't even consider Apple hardware or software for editing or effects work for video post.  The serious 3D people left a long time ago because of the hardware limitations.

    While I applaud the Apple announcement today, I will have to wait and see what they bring to market.  They talked about one big heavy duty GPU - okay that's fine, but they should consider adding the ability to support a card cage filled with GPUs and maybe CPUs.  People in video and film have software that can use (even require) that sort of power.  DaVinci Resolve is one such system. Connect a AppleCage via USB C and fill it with GPUs or whatever - easy and peasy.  The long lost power users also liked the abiity to put four drives inside the old cheese graters.  It was often used as temporary storage for processing or loading etc.  Primary storage was usually a high speed RAID.  I know that sort of feature makes for a physically large computer, but these people don't care they want features that add versatility.  The old cheese graters had that in spades.  Need Fiber Channel, we got a card for that.  Need some new form of SCSI, got a card.  Need more GPU power, slap in a card.  Need some extra terabytes for a big job, slam in some drives.  This isn't hard to understand and doing it won't hurt the Apple brand.  It could help the brand if old users were to come home because this new comuter is insanely great.  We will see.
    Actually if you look at FACTS:

    1. Mac unit sales are up the last 5 years
    2. Windows unit sales are down sharply the last 5 years

    So you are pretty much wrong about everything.
    andrewj5790watto_cobraRayz2016MacPro
  • Reply 117 of 210
    wozwozwozwoz Posts: 132member
    I am delighted that Apple will be making an Apple monitor again ... hopefully in different sizes for different customers ... because it is an essential component of the Apple ecosystem and the Apple user experience, particularly for mini and Pro users. 

    Unlike some others posting here, I will be disappointed to see us lose the Mac Pro R2D2 design, but then I was a fan (and still am) of the Cube!!  Minimalism + power FTW. The reference to thermal limits is interesting ... it suggests a desire for far more intensive GPUs that might get much hotter, exceeding the capacity of the Mac Pro to cool it. Having said that, I revel in the R2D2s fantastically quiet performance, and this is, for me (and I suspect was for Steve Jobs too), an essential and important component of the Apple computer experience. 

    Looking forwards to what the future might hold :)
    CurtisHightwatto_cobradysamoria
  • Reply 118 of 210
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,911member
    True. I misread that. Mea Culpa. However, as Sog pointed out. 500,000 mac Pros is a product worth dropping when you're a company who sells millions of other Macs and ios devices, so my point is the same.
    Honest questions:
    • if Apple sells 500,000 Mac Pros, that's a $1.5-3.5 Billion business -- is that a business worth dropping?
    • Apple would still need to develop and maintain macOS and Mac peripherals -- would dropping the Mac Pro really save any costs?
    • what do Apple employees use internally for their high-performance needs?
    • what computer hardware does Apple use for R&D to design and develop Apple products? 
    • Federighi said: "I think if you use Xcode downloads as a metric, it’s possible software developers are actually our largest pro audience. It’s growing very quickly, it’s been fantastic.” -- isn't software development important to Apple and Apple's customers? *
    • doesn't Apple need to have some skin in the game for maintain their ability to do high performance Mac and iDevice development?

    * As to software development, try generating some of the IBM/Swift packages using CLI or Xcode -- requires a bit of time on a loaded iMac 5K

    watto_cobradysamoria
  • Reply 119 of 210
    spice-boyspice-boy Posts: 314member
    Now that the "trash bin" form factor's day are limited perhaps the next Pro Mac will be useful like a "wash basin" which would made access to RAM super easy. I love all the comments about how Ivy and his designers should all be shown the door, and time for new blood, blah blah blah. If their work were easy as some suggest then there would already be much better looking designed products in the market. The challenge of making powerhouse computer look stylish, almost cable and clutter free is no small task. I have never seen one of the Mac Pro's on a desk but I assume besides the power supple there are various USB cables teaming out of it's back at all times. This is the least consumer product that Apple makes, it is niche made smaller by Apple when pro photographers started using iMacs and MacBook Pros realized they had power to spare. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 120 of 210
    True. I misread that. Mea Culpa. However, as Sog pointed out. 500,000 mac Pros is a product worth dropping when you're a company who sells millions of other Macs and ios devices, so my point is the same.
    Honest questions:
    • if Apple sells 500,000 Mac Pros, that's a $1.5-3.5 Billion business -- is that a business worth dropping?
    • Apple would still need to develop and maintain macOS and Mac peripherals -- would dropping the Mac Pro really save any costs?
    • what do Apple employees use internally for their high-performance needs?
    • what computer hardware does Apple use for R&D to design and develop Apple products? 
    • Federighi said: "I think if you use Xcode downloads as a metric, it’s possible software developers are actually our largest pro audience. It’s growing very quickly, it’s been fantastic.” -- isn't software development important to Apple and Apple's customers? *
    • doesn't Apple need to have some skin in the game for maintain their ability to do high performance Mac and iDevice development?

    * As to software development, try generating some of the IBM/Swift packages using CLI or Xcode -- requires a bit of time on a loaded iMac 5K

    My point wasn't that apple SHOULD drop Mac Pro. I don't think they should. There was a business argument to be made that they should, however because of the niche market. My point was that today's announcement proves that the hand wringing was incorrect (specifically regarding Tim Cook placing profits above all else) and they ARE making the arguments you just made (that I agree with) internally, and those arguments carried the day. 
    watto_cobra
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