Rationale behind Titanium

dhagan4755

All right, Apple is now making laptops using aircraft grade aluminum. I think this is a great design and practical move. Which leads me to ask: What was the rationale behind using titanium in the first place?



A lot of people who got to see the new aluminum PowerBooks first hand have noted how much more durable they seem to be - they don't scratch or flex like the titanium PowerBook does. They don't feel as fragile.



So does this mean the use of titanium in the laptop was a gimmick by Apple? Or does it mean that the Apple industrial design team is really getting savvy at engineering better products?



[ 01-18-2003: Message edited by: DHagan4755 ]</p>

ghost_user_name

Gimmick. And they hadn´t realised what a pain it would be to paint Ti.

pscates

Yeah, but in two years they'll move to zinc or something and we'll all be saying the same thing about aluminum.







There's probably some secret memo floating around Cupertino that specifies that Apple's hardware team is to come up with a newer, hip-sounding metal every two years for their PowerBooks.



TiBook, AlBook, ZiBook, MagBook, IronHorse (ooo!), TinBook, CopperBook...

ghost_user_name

One made of weaved carbon nano tubes :eek:

satchmo

Two years ago, titanium was the hot metal not only in laptops, but other items such as golf clubs.



I think it had a lot to do with marketing and hype. Didn't Jobs say something to the effect that Titanium was stronger than magnesium (which was used by most PC notebooks).



But this kind of make you wonder why an industrial design team (and engineering) which is so revered, would miss something as basic as surface paint and durability.

pscates

Ditto.



I think, perhaps, the potential to use such a cool buzzword as "titanium" won out over other concerns.

ghost_user_name

Titanium is a durable metal, but it is also rather flexible. My titanium road bikes ride a lot smoother than any aluminum bike I've owned ever did. I don't know what Titanium alloy they were using in the TiBook, but I've ridden a 6/4 Titanium frame, and it was pretty stiff for Titanium.



Anyhow, I agree. For a large laptop, i don't know why you would want a metal that is known for its flexibility and durability. Aircraft grade aluminum seems much more logical, and having held the machines first hand at MWSF, they all felt completely solid.



Personally, I want to see a laptop made out of Beryllium

stunned

Titanium just sounds so cool and futuristic!

buonrotto

Ti: very light, very strong, relatively good malleability.

eugene

[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:

<strong>Ti: very light, very strong, relatively good malleability.</strong><hr></blockquote>



Aluminum: just as light, also very strong, stiffer.



M3D Jack, I doubt Apple was using 6/4 or 3/2.5 Ti consistent with the boutique stuff you find on Litespeed, Merlin, and Ibis bikes.



On the otherhand, the aluminum they use in bikes isn't fancy at all, other than the Easton Custom in my Yeti.



An example of Ti's malleability and fatigue resistance:







No pivots for the rear suspension!

low-fi

[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:

<strong>An example of Ti's malleability and fatigue resistance:







No pivots for the rear suspension!</strong><hr></blockquote>

:eek: Wow, that is impressive.



What about the cost of aluminium vs. titanium? Could it be when designing the TiBook, titanium was cheaper than this new-fangled aircraft grade aluminium?



low-fi

splinemodel

Coming from a high school where Lacross wass god, I can tell you that the Lacrosse kids were fascinated with the stuff. There were aircraft aluminum lacrosse shafts and titanium ones out there, but they swore the titanium ones were much more durable.



The titanium Apple used/uses is nearly 100% pure Ti.



The ultimate, though is Beryllium alloy. put a pinch of Ti, Cu, and Al into your Be, and you have something that's ridiculously strong and light. Be alone is somewhat brittle and hard to work with. . . . just make sure you powder coat it, though, because it's quite toxic!

mr. macintosh

[quote]Originally posted by Splinemodel:

<strong>The ultimate, though is Beryllium alloy. put a pinch of Ti, Cu, and Al into your Be, and you have something that's ridiculously strong and light. Be alone is somewhat brittle and hard to work with. . . . just make sure you powder coat it, though, because it's quite toxic!</strong><hr></blockquote>



I thought Beryllium was a heavy element?

matsu

Now iDunno much about this but if titanium will bend (and bend back) at a point where aluminium might break or warp, then it would probably make a better material for sticks and such. But in a laptop the titanium bending and then bending back won't do to much good if the fragile circuit boards or LCD glass inside breaks. In this case, it might be better to have a hard (if more brittle) material like Aluminium or magnesium instead. (Seems funny to me to think of Al as brittle??? depends on the prep I guess)



The rest could the locker room equivalent of bench racing: "This here titanium shaft must be better, it costs more, and don't they make cans out of aluminum"

buonrotto

[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:

<strong>



Aluminum: just as light, also very strong, stiffer.</strong><hr></blockquote>



Actually, Al is much softer than Ti, but it's neither easily malleable nor ductile at normal temperatures. It has an extermely high liquid temperature though so once you extrude it, it stays. What's also better about Al is that's not a good conductor for a metal and it isn't magnetic. Makes it very safe in the close quarters of a notebook machine. it can get hot, but you do't have to worry about wiring or getting shocks.



Aside from all that, when aluminum oxidates, it produces a protective layer like copper does, unlike iron. So it has a built-in protective coating. Ti doesn't easily oxidate (I don't even know what happens when it does), so those baked-on coatings just can't compete with a "natural" process (actually, it's chemically induced and rushed) that bonds with the surface below.



[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>

trevorm

[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:

<strong>

On the otherhand, the aluminum they use in bikes isn't fancy at all, other than the Easton Custom in my Yeti.

</strong><hr></blockquote>



Hey Eugene what type of Yeti have you got? I haven only heard good things about them. Gotta say I do love my NRS tho....



What type of riding you do? Got a pic?

splinemodel

[quote]Originally posted by Mr. Macintosh:

<strong>



I thought Beryllium was a heavy element?</strong><hr></blockquote>



Nope. I think the Average Atomic Mass is about 9, and on top of that it's not engaged in a hexagonal-closest-packing molecular structure. Very light. denisty is 1.9 gm/cc. Aluminum is 2.6 gm/cc.



Those numbers are all a bit rusty, but I guarantee that they're ballpark. It has been 4 years since I was in AP chemistry class.



[quote]The rest could the locker room equivalent of bench racing: "This here titanium shaft must be better, it costs more, and don't they make cans out of aluminum<hr></blockquote>

The aircraft aluminum shafts are made from T6 aluminum, and they aren't that special. The Aluminum Alloy ones, however, are the ones I was referring to, and they cost just as much as titanium ones. They are lighter, but less durable. Or so it is claimed. It sounds pretty good to me, though, and there were enough intelligent people on the team (maybe 4 or so) that I'll believe it.



[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: Splinemodel ]</p>

flick justice

another example of ti and its strength and flexability..

Computer should never be made of this stuf.. that is unless your looking for a smooth ride like my Team ti Softtail DeKerf, the chainstays are titanium and eat up the chatter really well.

ghost_user_name

There was a Colorado company some years ago called DEAN that produced Beryllium components I think.... I also seem to remember someone producing a Beryllium cycling frame. I just recall it was ungodly expensive. If you look on a periodic chart, Be is like the third element. I don't know much about it, other than it is supposedly light, strong, a pain to work with, and someone made a bike out of it once.



Personally, I'm happy with my 6/4 Litespeed TT bike and my 3/2.5 GT Edge

eugene

I remember DEAN Ti frames, but not Beryllium ones. The company that made Beryllium MTBs was none other than Beyond Beryllium.