'Game of Thrones' cold war between contractors plaguing Apple tools division

Posted:
in General Discussion
An except from a new book about major tech companies characterizes an internal Apple division as having a "Cold War" atmosphere, with infighting and contractor issues causing the section to be both a grueling place to work, and inefficient for the company itself.




Apple's Information Systems & Technology (IS&T) group handles the creation and management of internal tools Apple's employees use regularly, ranging from infrastructure to retail projects. According to an except of the book "Always Day One" by Alex Kantrowitz, the group is one that has considerable problems in how it currently operates.

The group involves a number of contracting firms including Wipro, Infosys, and Accenture that are bidding for projects from Apple, the excerpt published by BuzzFeed reads. The constant negotiations and fighting to take on projects has led to what one former employee describes as a "Game of Thrones nightmare."

The contracting firms all offer bids to work on projects, with Apple typically deciding the winning bid based on how cheap it is for Apple itself. The focus on staffing and maximizing the numbers of roles for each firm has led to a culture that former IS&T contractor Archana Sabapathy suggests is like "there's a Cold War going on every single day."

"They're just fighting for the roles," Sabapathy explained. "That's all they care about, not the work, not the deliverables, the effort the put in, or even talent. They're not looking for any of those aspects."

The constant battle has led to an uncertain and combative atmosphere, where typical workplace relationships are not possible due to the needs for contractor firm loyalty, as well as the constantly shifting contracting teams.

The bidding process also leads to lower-quality contractors than the projects typically require. Consulting companies are being paid between $120 and $150 per hour for a contractor's work, according to Sabapathy, while the contractor themselves get $40 to $55 per hour.

This results in a lower quality of work produced, Apple employees told the author, with many claiming to have needed to rewrite code for projects that ship to Apple in a broken state. "The engineering quality is extremely lackluster," one anonymous employee suggested to a Quora query, who was "shocked" to see how the projects were designed and developed.

"If you compare the code quality to that of a high schooler's or a fresh undergraduate, you seriously will not be able to distinguish between the two," the employee added.

Another employee responding in the same thread claimed "this department is worse than most IT sweatshops in India that you have heard of that are a bad place to work for engineers. From the day I joined to the day I quit from this department to another, everyday was soul sucking and made me curse my life for joining this department."

Apple is not the only company said to be abusing contractors instead of paying for full-time employees, with Kantrowitz citing Google's employee walkout and a ten-fold pay disparity between Facebook contract moderators and full-time staff as issues elsewhere in the technology world.

"For Apple, fixing its broken IS&T division would not only be the right thing to do from a moral standpoint - it would help the company's business as well," proposes Kantrowitz, with the building of tools that work and support existing products without needing refactoring able to help give its employees more time to work on new ideas.

Kantrowitz further warns "until Apple gives the division a hard look, its employees will be stuck spending their time reworking broken internal software, and wishing they were inventing instead."
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 22
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    "They're just fighting for the roles," Sabapathy explained. "That's all they care about, not the work, not the deliverables, the effort the put in, or even talent. They're not looking for any of those aspects." 

    That is literally how all of those companies work. Its all sales and sales engineers, internal talent is minimal to say the least, and they often outsource again ( Accenture does, for sure).

    "For Apple, fixing its broken IS&T division would not only be the right thing to do from a moral standpoint - it would help the company's business as well," proposes Kantrowitz, with the building of tools that work and support existing products without needing refactoring able to help give its employees more time to work on new ideas. 

    Not seeing that logic though, as if they use internal developers they will obviously need to hire more people. And I don't think people join Apple to write internal tools, although I suppose it could be used as an entry level position.

    edited April 2020
  • Reply 2 of 22
    cornchipcornchip Posts: 1,950member
    asdasd said:

    Not seeing that logic though, as if they use internal developers they will obviously need to hire more people. And I don't think people join Apple to write internal tools, although I suppose it could be used as an entry level position.


    It seems to me that internal tools are something especially a company like Apple would want to keep, I don’t know, internal

    seems like a big waste of time to constantly be wrangling with contractors, but what do I know?


    dysamoriaronnOferElCapitan
  • Reply 3 of 22
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,095member
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
  • Reply 4 of 22
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    Aaaand you’re saying what, exactly? That it’s the employees fault for there being hostility...??

    Because it’s usually about companies not wanting to spend money on full-time salaries and benefits for full-time workers to do tasks that the company views as an undesirable expense. Internal tools don’t contribute to company image and don’t make profit. Therefore, their perceived value is as this article shows: lowest bidder, low quality work.

    Apple leadership *should* value those tools as necessary for running Apple, and for making the actually sellable products... but we see that Apple is run by MBA types, currently, so...
    drdavidentropys
  • Reply 5 of 22
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,095member
    dysamoria said:
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    Aaaand you’re saying what, exactly? That it’s the employees fault for there being hostility...??

    Because it’s usually about companies not wanting to spend money on full-time salaries and benefits for full-time workers to do tasks that the company views as an undesirable expense. Internal tools don’t contribute to company image and don’t make profit. Therefore, their perceived value is as this article shows: lowest bidder, low quality work.

    Apple leadership *should* value those tools as necessary for running Apple, and for making the actually sellable products... but we see that Apple is run by MBA types, currently, so...
    Lighten up.  Sorry that the truth triggers you.  I'm a contractor as well and seen enough of what I posted over the decades.
  • Reply 6 of 22
    hammeroftruthhammeroftruth Posts: 1,309member
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    It’s actually price. Applecare for example uses more and more outsourcing in the past few years which IMHO is creating more detractors with customers who are told the wrong information. 

    If IS&T starts outsourcing its projects, then there is going to be a bigger dip in quality all around that will trickle down to the customer. 
    For example, if you go to an Apple store they have many, many programs that they use and outsourcing development and testing will negatively affect the customer experience. Internally at corporate, any internal software issues can affect product development and can severely compromise security if not vetted properly. 

    The fact that Apple is spending more time cost cutting rather than using time to improve internally is one of the side effects of having bean counters run Apple. 

    Rather than spend a ton of money making a gold watch, they could have put that money to better use by improving IS&T and other internal departments and recruiting and hiring better talent to replace talent that has retired. 
    dysamoria
  • Reply 7 of 22
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    I know why I hire contractors for certain tasks rather than hiring employees and it's never been due to potential hostility with a hire. 
    Oferdysamoria
  • Reply 8 of 22
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    dysamoria said:
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    Aaaand you’re saying what, exactly? That it’s the employees fault for there being hostility...??

    Because it’s usually about companies not wanting to spend money on full-time salaries and benefits for full-time workers to do tasks that the company views as an undesirable expense. Internal tools don’t contribute to company image and don’t make profit. Therefore, their perceived value is as this article shows: lowest bidder, low quality work.

    Apple leadership *should* value those tools as necessary for running Apple, and for making the actually sellable products... but we see that Apple is run by MBA types, currently, so...
    So you clearly don’t work in technology, or know what you’re talking about. 

    These infrastructure projects have a finite lifespan; they’re not ongoing work such as design and retail, so there’s no point hiring full-time staff who’d you only have to let go when the project’s done. Or perhaps, with your wealth business experience, you think constantly firing full-time staff is better for morale? 

    The problem is that most IT consultancies are crap. They don’t care about the work, just about dinging you for the next project. Apple should think about building a pool of contractor talent from smaller outfits, who in my experience are a lot more professional. 




    fastasleep
  • Reply 9 of 22
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,897member
    Rayz2016 said:


    The problem is that most IT consultancies are crap. They don’t care about the work, just about dinging you for the next project. Apple should think about building a pool of contractor talent from smaller outfits, who in my experience are a lot more professional. 





    This fits with a theory I have had for years regarding B2B services. In a nutshell, B2B companies exist to overcharge and generally rip off companies that hire them. They do a great job of marketing themselves as providing some essential service you can't provide yourself or survive without. I was operations manager at a small post house for several years and I spent a great deal of my time trying to find vendors that didn't overcharge as matter of course. If Apple didn't have so much money they probably would be more concerned about the things alleged in the article. It does sound like wasteful way to create internal tools.

    I worked for Apple support briefly and we used an amazing app created internally by Apple to handle calls, account access, help databases, etc. It basically did everything you needed throughout the work day. They told us about a small team that created it and specifically about two employees who were the primary creators. It was all they did and they were totally dedicated to the app and the employees that used it. No contractors involved to my knowledge. Why would apple not do this with all their internal needs?

    BTW the app was written in Java and ran on iMacs. I've never seen anything quite like it.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 10 of 22
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,168member
    You hire contractors for short term tasks, so you aren’t encumbered by very expensive permanent employees you don’t know what to do with.

    It can go too far though. It concerns me that the public service, for instance, is increasingly focussing on permanent employees that are part of a “mobile public service” which means they don’t actually know much about a particular topic, but on the upside for the “content free” there’s a better path for promotion.
    So the public service has to become procurement and contract managers and rely on consultants on short term contracts to provide content knowledge and write the actual policy documents. That the consultants don’t actually don’t know anything beyond how to cut and paste tender applications and if successful, cut and paste reports, doesn’t matter to the content free in the public service. They don’t know enough to know it is just a cut and paste job.
  • Reply 11 of 22
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    cornchip said:
    asdasd said:

    Not seeing that logic though, as if they use internal developers they will obviously need to hire more people. And I don't think people join Apple to write internal tools, although I suppose it could be used as an entry level position.


    It seems to me that internal tools are something especially a company like Apple would want to keep, I don’t know, internal

    Well, clearly not.  It was internal years ago,  but not now. 

    It does seem like a bean counter kinda problem, Apple shouldn't skimp there, or on AppleCare. On another forum I post on, a general one with different threads for different topics ( not reddit but similar) there's an ongoing "worst company ever" thread and the problems are always customer care. Always, You get people saying that their broadband was fine for years but when it went wrong they couldn't fix it for weeks, that every call started from the beginning, that people hung up on them. 

    For some reasons companies are happy to destroy their brand, by being cheap on customer care. Not Apple, yet, of course. 
    dysamoria
  • Reply 12 of 22
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    This isn't about hiring  individual contractors, it's outsourcing to consulting companies who then either outsource again to other companies,  or use their internal employees to do the work. Obviously they will sometimes also hire individual contractors, like all companies. 
    AppleUfmyI
  • Reply 13 of 22
    aknabiaknabi Posts: 211member
    Having worked in the same environments for other tech companies (and currently in a health tech one) that have worked/works with IT and devs from  Wipro, Infosys, and Accenture... I'm not surprised at this... those three firms are a Trifecta of bozonity... they're armies of B & C players that convince upper management that their A players and bill as such.

    We currently have a Wipro team that we're stuck with for the remainder of the project... they're so bad that we've removed all tasks from them and overloaded ourselves  (one "senior dev" didn't know about the $JAVA_HOME env var! An iOS "senior dev" that put the entire code in a view controller! IT that totally misconfigures/screws up the VPN and in this WFH time we're out for a day a week while they sort out the messes they keep creating)... as far as we know they're now just updating their social media posts or gaming for the remainder of the project (and more productive for the project than when they were actually working on it). And of course no one can raise the issue because politically the execs that screwed up need to be protected.

    Every few years the contracting team is killed off and proper folks hired... the exec who brought the bozos in leaves... then in a few years some execs + bean counters repeats the cycle...

    I'd assume Apple has the same issues with the internal IT/dev folks having the same frustration I do (and having to covering their execs/bean counters butts)

    I would hope Apple would maintain their "only A players" fanaticism... but I know for a fact from friends still inside that just ain't the case anymore :(
    edited April 2020 dysamoriaAppleUfmyI
  • Reply 14 of 22
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,693member
    My experience with huge Japanese and U.S multinationals is from the contractor side and is not positive in the case of U.S companies.

    The U.S multinationals quickly cook up plans and contract the tasks out. Then they progressively push to get the same work done with less staff but often with last minute demands. Projects are tuned to months and getting extensions for staff is a lengthy, difficult process plagued by paperwork and authorisation issues by people in different countries and time zones.

    There are language issues, legal issues (often what is OK in the U.S and demanded by the company for its EU staff is outright illegal here).

    As project goals widen or narrow, teams change in size and it is very difficult to find the necessary project knowledge in existing staff. The staff themselves demand job security from their employers and the more talented individuals get what they want (or the contractor could lose them).

    All of this is hindered by constant restructuring within these multinationals and staff disappearing without warning.

    It is quite literally a nightmare and quality is the first thing to suffer.

    Japanese companies however (at least in my experience) manage these problems in a far more reasonable manner. They plan ahead, set goals and look to achieve them in a reasonable manner. They are far less prone to last minute changes and staff are normally hands on for longer periods, allowing them to form good working relationships with the company handling the contracting.

    Not sure if this is consolation for Apple but one particularly big U.S company that divided itself up not long ago is by far the worst in my experience.

    I will add that government requirements, while absolutely necessary on many occasions, also add to the pain. File security and governance is becoming a huge problem for some contractors.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 15 of 22
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    sflocal said:
    dysamoria said:
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    Aaaand you’re saying what, exactly? That it’s the employees fault for there being hostility...??

    Because it’s usually about companies not wanting to spend money on full-time salaries and benefits for full-time workers to do tasks that the company views as an undesirable expense. Internal tools don’t contribute to company image and don’t make profit. Therefore, their perceived value is as this article shows: lowest bidder, low quality work.

    Apple leadership *should* value those tools as necessary for running Apple, and for making the actually sellable products... but we see that Apple is run by MBA types, currently, so...
    Lighten up.  Sorry that the truth triggers you.  I'm a contractor as well and seen enough of what I posted over the decades.
    Nice try in projecting your state of being triggered. You’re clearly triggered by the concept of hiring employees over contractors. You projected it straight onto Apple as an explanation for why this work (per the article) is done by contractor.

    If you really cared about the truth, you’d swallow your emotional reaction to employee-employer relations and acknowledge that the real reason is usually cost (as I said, as others have said, and as most businesses that hire this way will acknowledge). Whatever your personal issues are that make you have an us-vs-them attitude toward employees is irrelevant here.
  • Reply 16 of 22
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member

    Rayz2016 said:
    dysamoria said:
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    Aaaand you’re saying what, exactly? That it’s the employees fault for there being hostility...??

    Because it’s usually about companies not wanting to spend money on full-time salaries and benefits for full-time workers to do tasks that the company views as an undesirable expense. Internal tools don’t contribute to company image and don’t make profit. Therefore, their perceived value is as this article shows: lowest bidder, low quality work.

    Apple leadership *should* value those tools as necessary for running Apple, and for making the actually sellable products... but we see that Apple is run by MBA types, currently, so...
    So you clearly don’t work in technology, or know what you’re talking about. 

    These infrastructure projects have a finite lifespan; they’re not ongoing work such as design and retail, so there’s no point hiring full-time staff who’d you only have to let go when the project’s done. Or perhaps, with your wealth business experience, you think constantly firing full-time staff is better for morale? 

    The problem is that most IT consultancies are crap. They don’t care about the work, just about dinging you for the next project. Apple should think about building a pool of contractor talent from smaller outfits, who in my experience are a lot more professional. 
    Wow, you’re so close to the problem that you can’t see it. Just like government, Apple need their own department that exists for these tasks, instead of risking dealing with the third-party contractors every time a need comes up for this. You yourself just SAID that such consultancies don’t care about the work. Apple are already being forced to fix or recreate the work of the contractors, AS SAID IN THE ARTICLE. Having a department of internal experts is better in THE LONG TERM, even if they’re not constantly working on these tasks.
  • Reply 17 of 22
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    dysamoria said:

    Rayz2016 said:
    dysamoria said:
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    Aaaand you’re saying what, exactly? That it’s the employees fault for there being hostility...??

    Because it’s usually about companies not wanting to spend money on full-time salaries and benefits for full-time workers to do tasks that the company views as an undesirable expense. Internal tools don’t contribute to company image and don’t make profit. Therefore, their perceived value is as this article shows: lowest bidder, low quality work.

    Apple leadership *should* value those tools as necessary for running Apple, and for making the actually sellable products... but we see that Apple is run by MBA types, currently, so...
    So you clearly don’t work in technology, or know what you’re talking about. 

    These infrastructure projects have a finite lifespan; they’re not ongoing work such as design and retail, so there’s no point hiring full-time staff who’d you only have to let go when the project’s done. Or perhaps, with your wealth business experience, you think constantly firing full-time staff is better for morale? 

    The problem is that most IT consultancies are crap. They don’t care about the work, just about dinging you for the next project. Apple should think about building a pool of contractor talent from smaller outfits, who in my experience are a lot more professional. 
    Wow, you’re so close to the problem that you can’t see it. Just like government, Apple need their own department that exists for these tasks, instead of risking dealing with the third-party contractors every time a need comes up for this. You yourself just SAID that such consultancies don’t care about the work. Apple are already being forced to fix or recreate the work of the contractors, AS SAID IN THE ARTICLE. Having a department of internal experts is better in THE LONG TERM, even if they’re not constantly working on these tasks.
    You are both right. In general for a once off project, you might want to outsource, but the tools used in Apple should probably be an ongoing project.
    edited April 2020
  • Reply 18 of 22
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    asdasd said:
    dysamoria said:

    Rayz2016 said:
    dysamoria said:
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    Aaaand you’re saying what, exactly? That it’s the employees fault for there being hostility...??

    Because it’s usually about companies not wanting to spend money on full-time salaries and benefits for full-time workers to do tasks that the company views as an undesirable expense. Internal tools don’t contribute to company image and don’t make profit. Therefore, their perceived value is as this article shows: lowest bidder, low quality work.

    Apple leadership *should* value those tools as necessary for running Apple, and for making the actually sellable products... but we see that Apple is run by MBA types, currently, so...
    So you clearly don’t work in technology, or know what you’re talking about. 

    These infrastructure projects have a finite lifespan; they’re not ongoing work such as design and retail, so there’s no point hiring full-time staff who’d you only have to let go when the project’s done. Or perhaps, with your wealth business experience, you think constantly firing full-time staff is better for morale? 

    The problem is that most IT consultancies are crap. They don’t care about the work, just about dinging you for the next project. Apple should think about building a pool of contractor talent from smaller outfits, who in my experience are a lot more professional. 
    Wow, you’re so close to the problem that you can’t see it. Just like government, Apple need their own department that exists for these tasks, instead of risking dealing with the third-party contractors every time a need comes up for this. You yourself just SAID that such consultancies don’t care about the work. Apple are already being forced to fix or recreate the work of the contractors, AS SAID IN THE ARTICLE. Having a department of internal experts is better in THE LONG TERM, even if they’re not constantly working on these tasks.
    You are both right. In general for a once off project, you might want to outsource, but the tools eat in Apple prob is an ongoing project.
    https://www.oncontracting.com/client/company/apple-contract-jobs-staffing-agency-reviews-rates
  • Reply 19 of 22
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    gatorguy said:
    asdasd said:
    dysamoria said:

    Rayz2016 said:
    dysamoria said:
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    Aaaand you’re saying what, exactly? That it’s the employees fault for there being hostility...??

    Because it’s usually about companies not wanting to spend money on full-time salaries and benefits for full-time workers to do tasks that the company views as an undesirable expense. Internal tools don’t contribute to company image and don’t make profit. Therefore, their perceived value is as this article shows: lowest bidder, low quality work.

    Apple leadership *should* value those tools as necessary for running Apple, and for making the actually sellable products... but we see that Apple is run by MBA types, currently, so...
    So you clearly don’t work in technology, or know what you’re talking about. 

    These infrastructure projects have a finite lifespan; they’re not ongoing work such as design and retail, so there’s no point hiring full-time staff who’d you only have to let go when the project’s done. Or perhaps, with your wealth business experience, you think constantly firing full-time staff is better for morale? 

    The problem is that most IT consultancies are crap. They don’t care about the work, just about dinging you for the next project. Apple should think about building a pool of contractor talent from smaller outfits, who in my experience are a lot more professional. 
    Wow, you’re so close to the problem that you can’t see it. Just like government, Apple need their own department that exists for these tasks, instead of risking dealing with the third-party contractors every time a need comes up for this. You yourself just SAID that such consultancies don’t care about the work. Apple are already being forced to fix or recreate the work of the contractors, AS SAID IN THE ARTICLE. Having a department of internal experts is better in THE LONG TERM, even if they’re not constantly working on these tasks.
    You are both right. In general for a once off project, you might want to outsource, but the tools eat in Apple prob is an ongoing project.
    https://www.oncontracting.com/client/company/apple-contract-jobs-staffing-agency-reviews-rates
    Not sure what that proves or disproves. OutSourcing != hiring individual contractors anyway
  • Reply 20 of 22
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    asdasd said:
    gatorguy said:
    asdasd said:
    dysamoria said:

    Rayz2016 said:
    dysamoria said:
    sflocal said:
    The hostility between employee and employer along with the difficulty in firing an unwanted employee I think is the prime reason why many people would rather hire contractors instead of employees.  
    Aaaand you’re saying what, exactly? That it’s the employees fault for there being hostility...??

    Because it’s usually about companies not wanting to spend money on full-time salaries and benefits for full-time workers to do tasks that the company views as an undesirable expense. Internal tools don’t contribute to company image and don’t make profit. Therefore, their perceived value is as this article shows: lowest bidder, low quality work.

    Apple leadership *should* value those tools as necessary for running Apple, and for making the actually sellable products... but we see that Apple is run by MBA types, currently, so...
    So you clearly don’t work in technology, or know what you’re talking about. 

    These infrastructure projects have a finite lifespan; they’re not ongoing work such as design and retail, so there’s no point hiring full-time staff who’d you only have to let go when the project’s done. Or perhaps, with your wealth business experience, you think constantly firing full-time staff is better for morale? 

    The problem is that most IT consultancies are crap. They don’t care about the work, just about dinging you for the next project. Apple should think about building a pool of contractor talent from smaller outfits, who in my experience are a lot more professional. 
    Wow, you’re so close to the problem that you can’t see it. Just like government, Apple need their own department that exists for these tasks, instead of risking dealing with the third-party contractors every time a need comes up for this. You yourself just SAID that such consultancies don’t care about the work. Apple are already being forced to fix or recreate the work of the contractors, AS SAID IN THE ARTICLE. Having a department of internal experts is better in THE LONG TERM, even if they’re not constantly working on these tasks.
    You are both right. In general for a once off project, you might want to outsource, but the tools eat in Apple prob is an ongoing project.
    https://www.oncontracting.com/client/company/apple-contract-jobs-staffing-agency-reviews-rates
    Not sure what that proves or disproves. OutSourcing != hiring individual contractors anyway
    Proves? it wasn't intended to "prove' anything, much less that anything you said was wrong. It's a list of jobs Apple typically contracts out and the pay involved. Others may be interested in knowing even if you might not be. Heck there may be AI members interested into looking into a contract job with Apple and the link explains how to go about it.  You're welcome
    edited April 2020 asdasd
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