"The most advanced military in the world"

tontontonton
Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
What's the helicopter crash count now? Helicopters should be removed from military service if they only serve to contibute to our own death toll.



And what's this about attacking the caravan carrying the freaking Russian Ambassador? Does anyone communicate, or since this is "war" is a certain level of confusion acceptable? No. These people are idiots, plain and clear. If a Russian Ambassador is attacked, or an embassy bombed, or a coalition plane shot down by "friendly fire" then there should be a court-marshall. No exceptoins. It seems the military leaders are not taking responsibility for grave mistakes, and that is unacceptable. It is costing lives.



I found it funny that the Chinese Government had to specifically send the US their embassy's street address this time around. But they were definitely smart to have done so. At least they're covering their asses.



Anyone want to do the research? How many "friendly fire" incidents have there been now? It seems we are our greatest enemy here.



And you people think that Saddam bombed the marketplace himself. Right.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 42
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    hmm, maybe they're people and they made mistakes? due to the nature of war, mistakes are costly. however, it doesn't change the fact that it is impossible to conduct any large scale operation of any kind without mistakes.
  • Reply 2 of 42
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    I think the reason it seems like there are a lot of friendly fire and accidental deaths is that there are so few combat deaths. I wonder what the friendly fire and accidental death rates are for others, such as the Iraqis. I bet they're at least as high.



    And, so far, despite acknowledging other accidents, the Pentagon denies the Russian incident.
  • Reply 3 of 42
    aries 1baries 1b Posts: 1,009member
    I've spent the last 18 months working with an excellent team to deploy a system to cut down on friendly fire accidents. That system is now deployed with the USMC (specifically 1 MEF, elements of whom are currently located in Baghdad and are kicking major, serious ass). The system is working pretty well; no friendly fire accidents between USMC vehicles equipped with the system.



    It's a real problem all right. If you have a solution to it, tell it to the Marines.



    Aries 1B
  • Reply 4 of 42
    crusadercrusader Posts: 1,129member
    Hmmm, someone needs a reality check. As alcimedes said, people make mistakes. How on Earth do you expect 90,000+ people to act perfectly in a War! . The point you make about helicopters being removed because they contribute to our death toll is insane. They are mobile gunships that can rapidly ferry troops around and are used in combat operations. What do you honestly expect? The point about the diplomats is moot too, they shouldn't be in a war zone. The territory comes with the job.
  • Reply 5 of 42
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Helicopters crash. They are giant hollow metal balls sitting underneath whirling blades. It's amazing more don't crash.



    A few weeks ago one crashed in East Texas looking for pieces of the Columbia shuttle.



    And since their "only" function isn't to crash we'll keep them.



    And since you aren't the one dying because of them perhaps you should keep your outrage in check. Let those at risk decide.
  • Reply 6 of 42
    fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton

    What's the helicopter crash count now? Helicopters should be removed from military service if they only serve to contibute to our own death toll.



    And what's this about attacking the caravan carrying the freaking Russian Ambassador? Does anyone communicate, or since this is "war" is a certain level of confusion acceptable? No. These people are idiots, plain and clear. If a Russian Ambassador is attacked, or an embassy bombed, or a coalition plane shot down by "friendly fire" then there should be a court-marshall. No exceptoins. It seems the military leaders are not taking responsibility for grave mistakes, and that is unacceptable. It is costing lives.



    I found it funny that the Chinese Government had to specifically send the US their embassy's street address this time around. But they were definitely smart to have done so. At least they're covering their asses.



    Anyone want to do the research? How many "friendly fire" incidents have there been now? It seems we are our greatest enemy here.



    And you people think that Saddam bombed the marketplace himself. Right.



    tonton, I could not help but notice your frustration with your post. I think we all wish nothing would go wrong in war but if you really think about it nothing goes 100% right with anything in life.



    Fellows
  • Reply 7 of 42
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    First, I imagine the number of 'enemies' we kill with heliocopters is far greater then the number of our own troops that die in them. I imagine they do their job really well.



    As for 'collateral damage', the number of civilians we kill is way too high all things considered. With the technology we have we could verify every bombing target before blowing it up. The problem is there is more pressure on saving our own military then there is on saving civilians. That's a crime though, especially when one of the 'valid' reasons for going to war is to liberate and save said civilians.



    As safe as our military is, it's still irresponsible.
  • Reply 8 of 42
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    You're honestly upset over this quote in the subject, or something else? Name any military anywhere near the American's capability. The answer is pretty clear cut, though the UK and Israel are probably our closest "competitors" for the title. But I think you're upset about something else. Having the most advanced military in the world obviously doesn't buy you everything to say the least.



    I mean, if that were the case, the (NY) Rangers would have at least made the playoffs, right?



    I think those who claim our military is careless and irresponsible have absolutely no idea what the military does and in what conditions it does its work. Welcome to war. War is always ugly, and no amount of sophistication can eliminate this fact. Those who expect no civilian tragedies and no mistakes are dellusional or at least have very unrealistic expectations. Sorry.



    I'm sure there are those who think these soldiers don't care, or are happy about these things too. That's a case of invention -- inventing a "bad guy" persona in these soldiers to meet the inventor's own agenda. I'm not saying that every soldier is a boy scout, but it is a cynical assumption to say the least. Sorry for that too.
  • Reply 9 of 42
    shawnpatrickjoyceshawnpatrickjoyce Posts: 2,417member
    I think several of you war-supporters paint with fairly wide brushes when you say that some of us expect 100% or 0% of this or that. Let's be sensible here. Tonton feels concerned that the U.S. may become its own worst enemy with a seemingly too large number of operational failures. "Friendly fire" incidents, helicopter crashes, and other incidents are among those that should be looked into to see if they occur outside the normal parameters of "just a mistake." When does "just a mistake" become something more. When does something more become a serious trend?
  • Reply 10 of 42
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    Yea I'm sure that's what Tonton is worried about. Even the Russians disagree with him about what happened.
  • Reply 11 of 42
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    i believe (at least last time i checked) the total death toll in Iraq of US soldiers (FF and in combat deaths) was around 76.



    that's 76 dead, total of 250,000+. at most that's 0.03% of our troops have died from anything. we're averaging approx. 5 deaths per day of the war. that's 0.002% per day.



    as for civilian casualities? it's hovering around 0.004%
  • Reply 12 of 42
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    First, I imagine the number of 'enemies' we kill with heliocopters is far greater then the number of our own troops that die in them. I imagine they do their job really well.



    If by "enemies" you mean "Saddam's death squads" then I'm sure you're right.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    As for 'collateral damage', the number of civilians we kill is way too high all things considered.



    Which all things are those. Like "considering all the lies of the Iraqi government which I lap up like sweet milk the number of civilians we kill is way too high". Or what?





    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    With the technology we have we could verify every bombing target before blowing it up.



    You're in fantasy land





    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    The problem is there is more pressure on saving our own military then there is on saving civilians. That's a crime though, especially when one of the 'valid' reasons for going to war is to liberate and save said civilians.



    As safe as our military is, it's still irresponsible.



    Yea that's why our medics are treating more of their people than ours. That's why our guys get ambushed when they Iraqis wave a white flag. That's why our guys throw themselves on top of women when Saddam's death squads are firing on civilians. 'cause, you know, we are just too careless and brutal.



    Maybe you should take a fresh look at how far the US goes to spare lives. You're extreme anti-americanism is clouding your judgment in this area.
  • Reply 13 of 42
    shawnpatrickjoyceshawnpatrickjoyce Posts: 2,417member
    You're right to the extent that he may take a much more individualized view of "mistakes" in addition to the view that repeated helicopter crashes could indicate something more than just isolated incidents. I don't know. I just think the military should hold accountable those who make such serious mistakes. On a wider level, it seems that some mistakes have been occuring more than others- and I think they need to be looked into. Could be just the sand after all. But the fact is that we just might be our own worst enemy in the war. You might even take that positively in a sense. I suppose I can too.
  • Reply 14 of 42
    jrcjrc Posts: 817member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton

    What's the helicopter crash count now? Helicopters should be removed from military service if they only serve to contibute to our own death toll.



    And what's this about attacking the caravan carrying the freaking Russian Ambassador? Does anyone communicate, or since this is "war" is a certain level of confusion acceptable? No. These people are idiots, plain and clear. If a Russian Ambassador is attacked, or an embassy bombed, or a coalition plane shot down by "friendly fire" then there should be a court-marshall. No exceptoins. It seems the military leaders are not taking responsibility for grave mistakes, and that is unacceptable. It is costing lives.



    I found it funny that the Chinese Government had to specifically send the US their embassy's street address this time around. But they were definitely smart to have done so. At least they're covering their asses.



    Anyone want to do the research? How many "friendly fire" incidents have there been now? It seems we are our greatest enemy here.



    And you people think that Saddam bombed the marketplace himself. Right.



    I agree that helicopters and V22s crash way too often. But, being that we're the only brave souls that stand up to tyrants, I guess it'll have to do. My dad's ship, CV-7 had a design flaw in the way air was in the fuel tanks. When the torpedo hit it, it went up like a roman candle some 60 years ago. But, they improved the design and I'm sure they will on helicopters and the like, as well.



    Just think if Saddam had given up, how many fewer lives, dollars and worthless internet posts would have been saved.
  • Reply 15 of 42
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BRussell

    I think the reason it seems like there are a lot of friendly fire and accidental deaths is that there are so few combat deaths. I wonder what the friendly fire and accidental death rates are for others, such as the Iraqis. I bet they're at least as high.



    And, so far, despite acknowledging other accidents, the Pentagon denies the Russian incident.



    That is precisely the case.



    As for the Russian convoy, the Russian journalists indicated they were stuck in a crossfire between coalition and Iraqi forces.
  • Reply 16 of 42
    eugeneeugene Posts: 8,254member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    Helicopters crash. They are giant hollow metal balls sitting underneath whirling blades. It's amazing more don't crash.



    A few weeks ago one crashed in East Texas looking for pieces of the Columbia shuttle.



    And since their "only" function isn't to crash we'll keep them.



    And since you aren't the one dying because of them perhaps you should keep your outrage in check. Let those at risk decide.



    Yeah, do a search for "helicopter crash" on CNN.com and it'll be plainly apparent that tonton's jab at the military is FUD. Whether you're Jeff Bezos, a rescue team approaching Mt. Hood, or a traffic reporter, it doesn't matter. Helicopters are complex machines, period...it has nothing to do with the military.
  • Reply 17 of 42
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    the best description i ever heard between planes and helicoptors was from a guy who was a pilot. he said



    "the fundamental difference between a plane and a helicopter is that a plane wants to fly, a helicoptor wants to crash"
  • Reply 18 of 42
    stunnedstunned Posts: 1,096member
    I am sure the pilots dun wan to crash either and the soldeirs dun wanna shoot their own men, but mistakes are bound to happen in such a big scale war.



    In peace time training, its easier not to make mistakes as there is no threat of danger. but in a war, one is bound to make mistakes due to the stress and urgency of the situation.



    We should not balme them, but hope they learn from their mistakes. This kind of death is unavoidable, but not warranted.
  • Reply 19 of 42
    colanderofdeathcolanderofdeath Posts: 1,261member
    If you want to bitch about military helicopters bitch about the ****ing Osprey boondoggle. ****ing military and ****ing Boeing with one ****ed up aircraft which is ****ing the taxpayer in the ****ing ass.
  • Reply 20 of 42
    splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath

    If you want to bitch about military helicopters bitch about the ****ing Osprey boondoggle. ****ing military and ****ing Boeing with one ****ed up aircraft which is ****ing the taxpayer in the ****ing ass.



    Well, the program is cancelled. . . but I digress.



    The V-22 was a good idea, though. Too bad our computer systems weren't quite good enough.
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