iMac to get 970 chip as well?
IMHO - Apple may have no alternative but to incorporate the 970 into the iMac range as well (at least at the top end). Here's why!
The G4 appears to be stuck at 1-1.42, the 1.42 is overclocked. Even the 'yet to be released' 7457 is rated @ 1G - it will overclock better than the 7455's. But where is the G4 going?, it seems nowhere in a real hurry.
I would prefer to see lower clocked G4's in the iMac/eMac and iBook (Consumer range) to avoid confusion and provide clear distinction between Consumer and PRO. Unless IBM can release its G4 'class' 850, I cannot see this happening, forcing Apple to fully adopt the 970, except in the iBook.
Any thoughts
The G4 appears to be stuck at 1-1.42, the 1.42 is overclocked. Even the 'yet to be released' 7457 is rated @ 1G - it will overclock better than the 7455's. But where is the G4 going?, it seems nowhere in a real hurry.
I would prefer to see lower clocked G4's in the iMac/eMac and iBook (Consumer range) to avoid confusion and provide clear distinction between Consumer and PRO. Unless IBM can release its G4 'class' 850, I cannot see this happening, forcing Apple to fully adopt the 970, except in the iBook.
Any thoughts
Comments
outweigh any mhz perception...
The G4 still has some life left, just not as a high end desktop CPU. Future enhancements may include RapidIO, moving to a 0.09micron manufacturing process, maybe a longer pipeline for higher speeds.
In the second half of 2004
Originally posted by Stoo
The 1.42GHz G4 is not overclocked, it's run at the frequency specified by Motorola. However, 1.5GHz is probably near the limit of the current G4 design.
This cuts to the heart of this thread, the iMac will be speed bumped by another 42% for another year? on the G4.
That's not very good. Unless the 850 with Altivec, RIO, etc arrives by 2H 2004.
Originally posted by Stoo
The 1.42GHz G4 is not overclocked
Exactly. Neither was the 1.25GHz G4. People need to lose that misconception.
Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe
Exactly. Neither was the 1.25GHz G4. People need to lose that misconception.
I know they're not overclocked, the 1.25 as well as the 1.42 are indeed rated at the speed from which they are fabricated (its just that they are receiving lower yields as frequency increases), I was dramatizing the fact.
The overall facts are that the G4, at least for the PRO market to be competitive to the 3+G Wintels will not be able to be scaled to meet the challenge and its consequence. See Apple's SEC filings on PMac sales.
Cheers,
Hasapi
As for 970s in the iMac, I think this is a great idea. First off, having the same chip in the tower and the Imac is not something new. For a little over a year both the iMac and the Pro towers used G3s. Things like bus, clock speed, memory etc. can differentiate the two product lines. In addition multiple processors are another good way of product differentiation.
Will Apple do this? I'm not sure. Apple seemsdetermined to get the newest chips in the Powerbook first before it goes in a consumer product. There seems to be conflicting reports on whether or not a 970 will appear in a notebook this year. I think its foolish to wait when the chip could be used, but is delayed because of marketing decisions. As an example, in the Wintel world the lates and greatest processors go in the desktops, and then migrate to the Laptop. People who want a laptop will buy one, and I doubt that many people wanting a portable will choose an iMac with a 970 over a Powerbook. i know Steve wants this to be the year of the portable, so if I were to venture I guess, I;d say we won't see a 970 iMac until next year.
Originally posted by hasapi
I know they're not overclocked, the 1.25 as well as the 1.42 are indeed rated at the speed from which they are fabricated (its just that they are receiving lower yields as frequency increases), I was dramatizing the fact.
The overall facts are that the G4, at least for the PRO market to be competitive to the 3+G Wintels will not be able to be scaled to meet the challenge and its consequence. See Apple's SEC filings on PMac sales.
And this has what to do with whether the iMac will get a 970?
The 1.25GHz and 1.42GHz G4s are rated for the speeds they're clocked at, so there is no undue hazard in putting them in any product Apple can put them in. Whether or not they are overclocked is irrelevant to their suitability for any particular market.
Personally, I think the iMac will sit right where it is until either the 7457 or the 90nm 970 arrives. And I'm not going to bet on which comes first. The high-clocked 7455s are probably too hot, too rare, and too expensive to supply the iMac. But if the PowerMac goes 970, and Apple does some extra cooling work on the iMac, they'd make a decent upgrade to the line.
Originally posted by jdbon2
...., I;d say we won't see a 970 iMac until next year.
Assuming your right, and I for one actually agree with your entire post. Im just curious about the level of performance purchasers of the iMac might expect from the G4 until it gets the 970.
At least it could get G4's as high as 1.42! Ahm, I think Ill go and buy one now, not.
PS. I bought a 1G 17" iMac for the wife (L3 - would have been nice), still great machine.
The iMac will get it all right, in due time, long after we see it in the PowerMacs and after we see it in the Xserves and PowerBooks. For the time leading up to that, the iMac has plenty of incremental upclockings. 1.25, 1.33, 1.42ghz, all on the current G4, which are good for probably a year. Maybe they'll go with the 850, or maybe the '57 will see the light of day eventually. There's plenty of room left for G4s to continue to exist inside of the iMac. I don't see the 970 rushing into EVERYTHING so quickly that we should be hoping for it in iMacs months before it even appears in PowerMacs. It will come. Eventually.
Originally posted by FrostyMMB
For the time leading up to that, the iMac has plenty of incremental upclockings. 1.25, 1.33, 1.42ghz, all on the current G4, which are good for probably a year. Maybe they'll go with the 850, or maybe the '57 will see the light of day eventually. There's plenty of room left for G4s to continue to exist inside of the iMac. I don't see the 970 rushing into EVERYTHING so quickly that we should be hoping for it in iMacs months before it even appears in PowerMacs. It will come. Eventually.
I disagree about the 'plenty' in the G4, when its entirely dependant on the heat issues relating to the top end of the scale G4 1.42 in a confined (imac) enclosure NOW!. The 7457 should fix that (just not today), but Id rather an 850 instead.
I disagree about the 'plenty' in the G4, when its entirely dependant on the heat issues relating to the top end of the scale G4 1.42 in a confined (imac) enclosure NOW!. The 7457 should fix that (just not today), but Id rather an 850 instead.
The heat issue won't be nearly as significant with only one processor. If we see 1.25Ghz in the next bump?who knows for sure when that is coming?we may be looking at the 850 or '57 anyway by the time a 1.33 or 1.42 bump comes around. If the '57 ups the bus to 200 those won't be the clock speeds, but it'll be somewhere comparable.
At least a 1G 970 will give me approx. 100% speed improvement - and use less power than a G4.
I agree however, that its unlikely Apple would sacrifice margin or even offer 64bit computing to a Consumer range machine. But if the costs of the MB are low enough, it certainly makes it difficult for Apple to hold back the 970 iMac.
I also assume its a comparably priced to the G4 chip?.
"The PPC 970 won't be in the iMac/iBook/PowerBook for a long time after PowerMacs and Xserves."
Why is this 100% certain? A few tidbits to chew on:
1 - The PPC 970 is no less than twice as fast as the G4 at any clockspeed.
2 - The PPC 970 power/heat requirements compare vary favorably to the G4, depending on the MHz rating.
3 - IBM is going to put the PPC 970 into BLADE servers. Does anyone know what those are? Essentially identical to a tiny laptop motherboard, in a relatively small enclosed space.
4 - The G4 is essentially clocked as high as it can go in current revisions, and the rumored "next generation G4" chips have no set release date from Motorola.
5 - The PPC 970 chips being built TODAY range from 1.0 GHz to 1.8 GHz minimum, with 2.5 GHz available before year end.
So ... if everyone wants to believe that Apple will purposely hold off putting the PPC 970 into all the machines for MARKETING reasons, that is completely acceptable. But there are not any TECHNICAL reasons why the 970 chips could not be used in the entire product before the end of 2003. To say they are too hot, too high power, or too expensive compared to the G4 is simply not accurate.
If the power/heat/cost is all relatively the same as the G4, but Apple can drop a 1 GHz PPC 970 into the eMac/iMac/iBook and DOUBLE the speed on each machine, why wouldn't they? This isn't brain surgery. The 1.4 - 1.8 GHz and up chips could be used in the "Power" machines, and be a minimum of 400 MHz faster than the consumer lineup. That equates to an 800 MHz difference in G4 terms. Apple only has a 400 MHz difference between the Dual 1.42 GHz and the 1 GHz iMac RIGHT NOW, and they still manage to sell a Pro machine without the iMac killing off sales. They have other means of distinction between the Pro and Consumer lines that have NOTHING to do with the processor being used.
And if Panther is going to be 64-bit and Apple wants Panther adopted quickly (at $129 a pop most likely) it's in their best interest to switch to PPC 970 across the board ASAP. This will NOT be a two year transition like the G4 was. (And was ONLY due to lack of quantity, quality, and speed delta in the G4...again only due to MARKETING issues, not technical issues.)
But what do I know?
-- Ensoniq
Originally posted by hasapi
[B]I think a speed bump of 250MHz is pathetic!
I thought the same thing eight months ago when we got the MDD PowerMacs, but that's what we got. It's also pathetic that we got a 200Mhz bump after a year (I think) of the flat panel iMac, but that's what we got. What we want is rarely what we get.
Originally posted by Amorph
And this has what to do with whether the iMac will get a 970?
The 1.25GHz and 1.42GHz G4s are rated for the speeds they're clocked at, so there is no undue hazard in putting them in any product Apple can put them in. Whether or not they are overclocked is irrelevant to their suitability for any particular market.
Personally, I think the iMac will sit right where it is until either the 7457 or the 90nm 970 arrives. And I'm not going to bet on which comes first. The high-clocked 7455s are probably too hot, too rare, and too expensive to supply the iMac. But if the PowerMac goes 970, and Apple does some extra cooling work on the iMac, they'd make a decent upgrade to the line.
I disagree with your first point. I've seen the 1.42's all copper heatsink. Even with one CPU, there is no way that chip would work in any Mac other than a Power Mac.
I think Apple will try and move the PowerPC 970 (90nm) across their product line very quickly. The G4 is very slow, and who knows when Motorola will get to 130nm, let alone 90nm. Then there is the G3 core plus AltiVec in a G5 chip, and Moki's other surprises.
Barto