Apple protests criticism that it's not complying with EU laws

Posted:
in iOS edited March 18

Apple has told an official hearing of the European Commission that it has fully complied with the new Digital Markets Act, despite complaints from rivals.

The App Store icon on a blue background
Apple claims that it is in compliance with EU DMA



Now that the Digital Markets Act is fully in force in the European Union, EU regulators have the power to investigate compliance and, if necessary, fine Big Tech companies who are in breach of the new laws. In a hearing at the European Commission, Apple has been putting its position and refuting criticisms from rivals.

According to Reuters, the European Commission's hearing was a day-long event that featured Apple alongside rivals as well as app developers and business users. Apple's lawyer Kyle Andeer told the EC hearing that the company had redesigned its systems specifically to comply with the Digital Markets Act.

"We were guided first and foremost by ensuring that we've complied with the law," Andeer told the hearing. "And then second, that we did it in a way that was consistent with our values and consistent with the language that we've developed with our users over a very long period of time."

"And we think we've accomplished that," he continued. "I think we're focused on it from a user perspective."

"Now, it's not to say that we're not focused on the impact of developers, but I think from our perspective first and foremost," said Andeer, "we'll be tracking very carefully what's the impact of all of these different changes on the user experience that we've delivered to our customers for 15, 16 years through the iPhone?"

The DMA was created to regulate Big Tech firms, not just Apple. This hearing regarding Apple will be followed by daily separate ones for Meta, Amazon, Alphabet, ByteDance, and concluding with Microsoft on Tuesday March 26.

Apple has previously claimed that it worked closely with the EU throughout its development of new rules for rivals. It has nonetheless also updated its rules following recent developer concern.

It's also reversed its position on Epic Games. After Epic Games failed to convince Apple that it wouldn't break its contract again, Apple refused the games firm a developer license.

There was then a direct question from the EU over this decision, plus a DMA architect calling Apple's move "weird," and saying it seemed to want to be fined. This was followed very quickly by Apple reinstating Epic Games as a developer in Europe.

What happens next



The EU has not published a specific schedule beyond dates for hearings regarding each of the Big Tech firms that its DMA law covers. Regardless of whether these hearings lead to specific action, the EU is bound to continually monitor Apple and the others.

It is also bound to respond to complaints, and it seems inevitable that rivals such as Spotify wlll continue calling for Apple to be re-investigated. This is therefore just the earliest of days in which Apple will be in court over EU complance.



Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 17
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    tmayAllMwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 17
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,703member
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    If you've read through the text of the DSA/DMA you would quickly realise that sitting back and doing nothing to reign in the control gatekeepers would be mind boggling. 

    Spotify, and literally anybody, can file complaints. Some of them may lead to formal investigations.

    As for compliance, well, as we can see from this process, that is yet to be determined, which in itself, blows a huge hole in the arguments of some people who insisted that Apple had complied simply because the 7th March had gone by without protests from the EU. 

    The comments stated here from Apple legal are standard fare with claims of values (which are never detailed) and compliance but followed up with pure fluff like the consumer experience etc.

    As I've said a few times already. We just have to wait and see now. 
    xyzzy-xxx
  • Reply 3 of 17
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,348member
    Comments wrt to DMA compliancy workshop;

    https://twitter.com/KayJebelli/status/1769635526062043315

    Big day today as the Commission kicks off its second round of #DMA compliance workshops , this time focused on specific gatekeepers, their compliance reports, and the feedback of third-parties. First target: Apple


    After reading that, and various other commentators such as Steve Sinofsky, who have the background and knowledge of regulatory enforcement, I have sided with the 

    ...DMA is going to be a shitstorm for consumers...

    but sure, great for Spotify, Epic, et al.

    YMMV


    edited March 18 williamlondonAllMwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 17
    AllMAllM Posts: 65member
    avon b7 said:
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    If you've read through the text of the DSA/DMA you would quickly realise that sitting back and doing nothing to reign in the control gatekeepers would be mind boggling. 

    Spotify, and literally anybody, can file complaints. Some of them may lead to formal investigations.

    As for compliance, well, as we can see from this process, that is yet to be determined, which in itself, blows a huge hole in the arguments of some people who insisted that Apple had complied simply because the 7th March had gone by without protests from the EU. 

    The comments stated here from Apple legal are standard fare with claims of values (which are never detailed) and compliance but followed up with pure fluff like the consumer experience etc.

    As I've said a few times already. We just have to wait and see now. 
    I still don’t understand why you keep stickin’ up for them politicians. They are mostly shortsighted, technologically illiterate, and only ever care about lining their pockets. 
    edited March 19 tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 17
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,703member
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    If you've read through the text of the DSA/DMA you would quickly realise that sitting back and doing nothing to reign in the control gatekeepers would be mind boggling. 

    Spotify, and literally anybody, can file complaints. Some of them may lead to formal investigations.

    As for compliance, well, as we can see from this process, that is yet to be determined, which in itself, blows a huge hole in the arguments of some people who insisted that Apple had complied simply because the 7th March had gone by without protests from the EU. 

    The comments stated here from Apple legal are standard fare with claims of values (which are never detailed) and compliance but followed up with pure fluff like the consumer experience etc.

    As I've said a few times already. We just have to wait and see now. 
    I still don’t understand why you keep stickin’ up for them politicians. They are mostly shortsighted, technologically illiterate, and only ever care about lining their pockets. 
    I don't stick up for anyone. LOL. 

    I can be very critical of policitians like, for example, anyone involved with Brexit, or those doing nothing to clean up UK rivers, or even my local policitians who once shut down a local welfare centre providing free meals to the needy during the month of August arguing there wasn't enough in the budget to cover operating costs while at the same time spending a quarter of a million euros on some sculptures for the beach. 

    There are good and bad politicians. There are good and bad decisions but, mostly, the EU has worked to benefit its citizens. The results are visible. 

    I'm writing this from a train sitting next to a giant sign explaining how much EU money was used to install an ATP system on my stretch of line. The air I breathe is cleaner thanks to EU regulations. I will be taking in a Rowenta heater (now in its third year) for repair under warranty next week. The parts needed for that repair will be available for at least 10 years. All thanks to the EU. For this heater in particular, parts will be available for 15 years. 

    If it ever needs to be repaired again and out of warranty the price has to be fair (again, thanks to the EU). Today that is a 26€ repair if I choose to go for a flat fee repair. 

    Last year I had to go for an emergency consultation on what turned out to be a torn retina. I ended up with argon laser shots to shore things up. All free. 

    The seawater that I swim in is tested daily and reports are posted weekly on display boards at the beach. Those are EU regulations. 

    I have micro, mini, temporary and fixed green points available to me for recycling e-waste (or any other waste that isn't organic, paper, glass, plastic...) . If I buy a large electrical appliance, the seller has to take the old one away if I have no other plans for it. All for free. 

    They are all the result of political decisions. 

    Most of the EU directives impacting Apple have been around for years. The DMA/DSA are simply efforts to bring legislation into line with current reality. 

    There is another big directive in the pipe concerning how long products should last but Apple can take a breather here. The first industry to be impacted by that will be the textile industry. 


    edited March 19 AllMmuthuk_vanalingamxyzzy-xxxVictorMortimer
  • Reply 6 of 17
    AllMAllM Posts: 65member
    avon b7 said:
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    If you've read through the text of the DSA/DMA you would quickly realise that sitting back and doing nothing to reign in the control gatekeepers would be mind boggling. 

    Spotify, and literally anybody, can file complaints. Some of them may lead to formal investigations.

    As for compliance, well, as we can see from this process, that is yet to be determined, which in itself, blows a huge hole in the arguments of some people who insisted that Apple had complied simply because the 7th March had gone by without protests from the EU. 

    The comments stated here from Apple legal are standard fare with claims of values (which are never detailed) and compliance but followed up with pure fluff like the consumer experience etc.

    As I've said a few times already. We just have to wait and see now. 
    I still don’t understand why you keep stickin’ up for them politicians. They are mostly shortsighted, technologically illiterate, and only ever care about lining their pockets. 
    I don't stick up for anyone. LOL. 

    I can be very critical of policitians like, for example, anyone involved with Brexit, or those doing nothing to clean up UK rivers, or even my local policitians who once shut down a local welfare centre providing free meals to the needy during the month of August arguing there wasn't enough in the budget to cover operating costs while at the same time spending a quarter of a million euros on some sculptures for the beach. 

    There are good and bad politicians. There are good and bad decisions but, mostly, the EU has worked to benefit its citizens. The results are visible. 

    I'm writing this from a train sitting next to a giant sign explaining how much EU money was used to install an ATP system on my stretch of line. The air I breathe is cleaner thanks to EU regulations. I will be taking in a Rowenta heater (now in its third year) for repair under warranty next week. The parts needed for that repair will be available for at least 10 years. All thanks to the EU. For this heater in particular, parts will be available for 15 years. 

    If it ever needs to be repaired again and out of warranty the price has to be fair (again, thanks to the EU). Today that is a 26€ repair if I choose to go for a flat fee repair. 

    Last year I had to go for an emergency consultation on what turned out to be a torn retina. I ended up with argon laser shots to shore things up. All free. 

    The seawater that I swim in is tested daily and reports are posted weekly on display boards at the beach. Those are EU regulations. 

    I have micro, mini, temporary and fixed green points available to me for recycling e-waste (or any other waste that isn't organic, paper, glass, plastic...) . If I buy a large electrical appliance, the seller has to take the old one away if I have no other plans for it. All for free. 

    They are all the result of political decisions. 

    Most of the EU directives impacting Apple have been around for years. The DMA/DSA are simply efforts to bring legislation into line with current reality. 

    There is another big directive in the pipe concerning how long products should last but Apple can take a breather here. The first industry to be impacted by that will be the textile industry. 


    Good exposition, - thanks! The problem with those initiatives, though, is that the manufacturers aren’t likely to shoulder the burden of increased expenses, and the product pricing itself is the one thing governments cannot explicitly regulate. So stuff is going to get even more expensive. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 17
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,703member
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    If you've read through the text of the DSA/DMA you would quickly realise that sitting back and doing nothing to reign in the control gatekeepers would be mind boggling. 

    Spotify, and literally anybody, can file complaints. Some of them may lead to formal investigations.

    As for compliance, well, as we can see from this process, that is yet to be determined, which in itself, blows a huge hole in the arguments of some people who insisted that Apple had complied simply because the 7th March had gone by without protests from the EU. 

    The comments stated here from Apple legal are standard fare with claims of values (which are never detailed) and compliance but followed up with pure fluff like the consumer experience etc.

    As I've said a few times already. We just have to wait and see now. 
    I still don’t understand why you keep stickin’ up for them politicians. They are mostly shortsighted, technologically illiterate, and only ever care about lining their pockets. 
    I don't stick up for anyone. LOL. 

    I can be very critical of policitians like, for example, anyone involved with Brexit, or those doing nothing to clean up UK rivers, or even my local policitians who once shut down a local welfare centre providing free meals to the needy during the month of August arguing there wasn't enough in the budget to cover operating costs while at the same time spending a quarter of a million euros on some sculptures for the beach. 

    There are good and bad politicians. There are good and bad decisions but, mostly, the EU has worked to benefit its citizens. The results are visible. 

    I'm writing this from a train sitting next to a giant sign explaining how much EU money was used to install an ATP system on my stretch of line. The air I breathe is cleaner thanks to EU regulations. I will be taking in a Rowenta heater (now in its third year) for repair under warranty next week. The parts needed for that repair will be available for at least 10 years. All thanks to the EU. For this heater in particular, parts will be available for 15 years. 

    If it ever needs to be repaired again and out of warranty the price has to be fair (again, thanks to the EU). Today that is a 26€ repair if I choose to go for a flat fee repair. 

    Last year I had to go for an emergency consultation on what turned out to be a torn retina. I ended up with argon laser shots to shore things up. All free. 

    The seawater that I swim in is tested daily and reports are posted weekly on display boards at the beach. Those are EU regulations. 

    I have micro, mini, temporary and fixed green points available to me for recycling e-waste (or any other waste that isn't organic, paper, glass, plastic...) . If I buy a large electrical appliance, the seller has to take the old one away if I have no other plans for it. All for free. 

    They are all the result of political decisions. 

    Most of the EU directives impacting Apple have been around for years. The DMA/DSA are simply efforts to bring legislation into line with current reality. 

    There is another big directive in the pipe concerning how long products should last but Apple can take a breather here. The first industry to be impacted by that will be the textile industry. 


    Good exposition, - thanks! The problem with those initiatives, though, is that the manufacturers aren’t likely to shoulder the burden of increased expenses, and the product pricing itself is the one thing governments cannot explicitly regulate. So stuff is going to get even more expensive. 
    That’s where competition comes in but if Apple is doing its part to eliminate competition something needs to change, hence what we currently have: DSA/DMA.

    Something similar may pop up in the US but maybe Tim will decide to visit the White House more often and try to persuade government to not do that. 
    muthuk_vanalingamxyzzy-xxxVictorMortimer
  • Reply 8 of 17
    The latest that I have read is that Apple will not be allowed to notarize any app from an alternative app store. Hands off completely? Call me crazy but that sounds like the EU commission will take some responsibility for app safety. I would think, if this is true, that Apple will need to change the warranty on iPhones, to exclude coverage on phones that have installed malware that have damaged the phone or caused any security issues. Of course iPhones can be reset (in most cases if not bricked) but you would really need to trust the developer and the alternate app store. No thanks for me.
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 17
    jimh2jimh2 Posts: 620member
    avon b7 said:
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    If you've read through the text of the DSA/DMA you would quickly realise that sitting back and doing nothing to reign in the control gatekeepers would be mind boggling. 

    Spotify, and literally anybody, can file complaints. Some of them may lead to formal investigations.

    As for compliance, well, as we can see from this process, that is yet to be determined, which in itself, blows a huge hole in the arguments of some people who insisted that Apple had complied simply because the 7th March had gone by without protests from the EU. 

    The comments stated here from Apple legal are standard fare with claims of values (which are never detailed) and compliance but followed up with pure fluff like the consumer experience etc.

    As I've said a few times already. We just have to wait and see now. 
    I still don’t understand why you keep stickin’ up for them politicians. They are mostly shortsighted, technologically illiterate, and only ever care about lining their pockets. 
    I don't stick up for anyone. LOL. 

    I can be very critical of policitians like, for example, anyone involved with Brexit, or those doing nothing to clean up UK rivers, or even my local policitians who once shut down a local welfare centre providing free meals to the needy during the month of August arguing there wasn't enough in the budget to cover operating costs while at the same time spending a quarter of a million euros on some sculptures for the beach. 

    There are good and bad politicians. There are good and bad decisions but, mostly, the EU has worked to benefit its citizens. The results are visible. 

    I'm writing this from a train sitting next to a giant sign explaining how much EU money was used to install an ATP system on my stretch of line. The air I breathe is cleaner thanks to EU regulations. I will be taking in a Rowenta heater (now in its third year) for repair under warranty next week. The parts needed for that repair will be available for at least 10 years. All thanks to the EU. For this heater in particular, parts will be available for 15 years. 

    If it ever needs to be repaired again and out of warranty the price has to be fair (again, thanks to the EU). Today that is a 26€ repair if I choose to go for a flat fee repair. 

    Last year I had to go for an emergency consultation on what turned out to be a torn retina. I ended up with argon laser shots to shore things up. All free. 

    The seawater that I swim in is tested daily and reports are posted weekly on display boards at the beach. Those are EU regulations. 

    I have micro, mini, temporary and fixed green points available to me for recycling e-waste (or any other waste that isn't organic, paper, glass, plastic...) . If I buy a large electrical appliance, the seller has to take the old one away if I have no other plans for it. All for free. 

    They are all the result of political decisions. 

    Most of the EU directives impacting Apple have been around for years. The DMA/DSA are simply efforts to bring legislation into line with current reality. 

    There is another big directive in the pipe concerning how long products should last but Apple can take a breather here. The first industry to be impacted by that will be the textile industry. 


    As for your EU warranty repair extensions you are paying for those in the purchase price so it is not free by any stretch. Businesses factor this into the their item prices just like every other expense (taxes, lease agreements, employees, travel costs, etc). No one ever rides for free though Spotify and others are trying.
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 17
    jimh2jimh2 Posts: 620member
    I'd like to see Apple give away go after Spotify by effectively copying the good parts and then either giving it away or charging a nominal fee for it so Spotify can feel the pain.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 17
    avon b7 said:
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    If you've read through the text of the DSA/DMA you would quickly realise that sitting back and doing nothing to reign in the control gatekeepers would be mind boggling. 

    Spotify, and literally anybody, can file complaints. Some of them may lead to formal investigations.

    As for compliance, well, as we can see from this process, that is yet to be determined, which in itself, blows a huge hole in the arguments of some people who insisted that Apple had complied simply because the 7th March had gone by without protests from the EU. 

    The comments stated here from Apple legal are standard fare with claims of values (which are never detailed) and compliance but followed up with pure fluff like the consumer experience etc.

    As I've said a few times already. We just have to wait and see now. 
    I still don’t understand why you keep stickin’ up for them politicians. They are mostly shortsighted, technologically illiterate, and only ever care about lining their pockets. 
    I don't stick up for anyone. LOL. 

    I can be very critical of policitians like, for example, anyone involved with Brexit, or those doing nothing to clean up UK rivers, or even my local policitians who once shut down a local welfare centre providing free meals to the needy during the month of August arguing there wasn't enough in the budget to cover operating costs while at the same time spending a quarter of a million euros on some sculptures for the beach. 

    There are good and bad politicians. There are good and bad decisions but, mostly, the EU has worked to benefit its citizens. The results are visible. 

    I'm writing this from a train sitting next to a giant sign explaining how much EU money was used to install an ATP system on my stretch of line. The air I breathe is cleaner thanks to EU regulations. I will be taking in a Rowenta heater (now in its third year) for repair under warranty next week. The parts needed for that repair will be available for at least 10 years. All thanks to the EU. For this heater in particular, parts will be available for 15 years. 

    If it ever needs to be repaired again and out of warranty the price has to be fair (again, thanks to the EU). Today that is a 26€ repair if I choose to go for a flat fee repair. 

    Last year I had to go for an emergency consultation on what turned out to be a torn retina. I ended up with argon laser shots to shore things up. All free. 

    The seawater that I swim in is tested daily and reports are posted weekly on display boards at the beach. Those are EU regulations. 

    I have micro, mini, temporary and fixed green points available to me for recycling e-waste (or any other waste that isn't organic, paper, glass, plastic...) . If I buy a large electrical appliance, the seller has to take the old one away if I have no other plans for it. All for free. 

    They are all the result of political decisions. 

    Most of the EU directives impacting Apple have been around for years. The DMA/DSA are simply efforts to bring legislation into line with current reality. 

    There is another big directive in the pipe concerning how long products should last but Apple can take a breather here. The first industry to be impacted by that will be the textile industry. 


    Good exposition, - thanks! The problem with those initiatives, though, is that the manufacturers aren’t likely to shoulder the burden of increased expenses, and the product pricing itself is the one thing governments cannot explicitly regulate. So stuff is going to get even more expensive. 
    That’s where competition comes in but if Apple is doing its part to eliminate competition something needs to change, hence what we currently have: DSA/DMA.

    Something similar may pop up in the US but maybe Tim will decide to visit the White House more often and try to persuade government to not do that. 
    But Apple ISN’T killing competition. This is the thing people are so blind to see.

    Spotify is claiming Apple is killing competition but it owns 56% of the music streaming sector with Apple down around 13%. How did Spotify get there? On Apple’s platform with Apple actively promoting it. How is that killing competition?

    Now Spotify is so big it feels it needs special treatment. The problem here is that Apple won’t give it that special treatment because THAT is what kills competition. Apple treats Spotify the same as it treats a teenage developer because that KEEPS competition active.

    So because Spotify can’t get its way on a platform Apple OWNS from start to finish, they lobby the EU to attack companies like Apple.

    You claim that the DMA rules have been around for years but you also disregard the efforts Apple has done to adhere to those laws in order to continue to operate in the EU. If Apple had being doing wrong by EU law it would have been slammed by now if, as you say, those laws already existed.

    The worst the EU has done was come at them with regards to having their European business run out of Ireland but Apple did no wrong there because it was in fact following the rules set out by the EU. Was it a loophole? Maybe, but it was 100% legal until the EU realised it wasn’t getting a bunch of money illegally. And it is illegal how the EU went after Irish based companies because the law allowed for businesses to base themselves in Ireland.

    Im not saying everything the EU is doing is wrong, just that the EU isn’t doing a good job of going after actual people or businesses that are operating illegally.

    The DMA exists not to bring EU law up to date but to try and swindle more money from overseas businesses to try and booster European companies who are all failing.
    tmaywilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 17
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,703member
    jimh2 said:
    avon b7 said:
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    If you've read through the text of the DSA/DMA you would quickly realise that sitting back and doing nothing to reign in the control gatekeepers would be mind boggling. 

    Spotify, and literally anybody, can file complaints. Some of them may lead to formal investigations.

    As for compliance, well, as we can see from this process, that is yet to be determined, which in itself, blows a huge hole in the arguments of some people who insisted that Apple had complied simply because the 7th March had gone by without protests from the EU. 

    The comments stated here from Apple legal are standard fare with claims of values (which are never detailed) and compliance but followed up with pure fluff like the consumer experience etc.

    As I've said a few times already. We just have to wait and see now. 
    I still don’t understand why you keep stickin’ up for them politicians. They are mostly shortsighted, technologically illiterate, and only ever care about lining their pockets. 
    I don't stick up for anyone. LOL. 

    I can be very critical of policitians like, for example, anyone involved with Brexit, or those doing nothing to clean up UK rivers, or even my local policitians who once shut down a local welfare centre providing free meals to the needy during the month of August arguing there wasn't enough in the budget to cover operating costs while at the same time spending a quarter of a million euros on some sculptures for the beach. 

    There are good and bad politicians. There are good and bad decisions but, mostly, the EU has worked to benefit its citizens. The results are visible. 

    I'm writing this from a train sitting next to a giant sign explaining how much EU money was used to install an ATP system on my stretch of line. The air I breathe is cleaner thanks to EU regulations. I will be taking in a Rowenta heater (now in its third year) for repair under warranty next week. The parts needed for that repair will be available for at least 10 years. All thanks to the EU. For this heater in particular, parts will be available for 15 years. 

    If it ever needs to be repaired again and out of warranty the price has to be fair (again, thanks to the EU). Today that is a 26€ repair if I choose to go for a flat fee repair. 

    Last year I had to go for an emergency consultation on what turned out to be a torn retina. I ended up with argon laser shots to shore things up. All free. 

    The seawater that I swim in is tested daily and reports are posted weekly on display boards at the beach. Those are EU regulations. 

    I have micro, mini, temporary and fixed green points available to me for recycling e-waste (or any other waste that isn't organic, paper, glass, plastic...) . If I buy a large electrical appliance, the seller has to take the old one away if I have no other plans for it. All for free. 

    They are all the result of political decisions. 

    Most of the EU directives impacting Apple have been around for years. The DMA/DSA are simply efforts to bring legislation into line with current reality. 

    There is another big directive in the pipe concerning how long products should last but Apple can take a breather here. The first industry to be impacted by that will be the textile industry. 


    As for your EU warranty repair extensions you are paying for those in the purchase price so it is not free by any stretch. Businesses factor this into the their item prices just like every other expense (taxes, lease agreements, employees, travel costs, etc). No one ever rides for free though Spotify and others are trying.
    Free in the commercial context. No added cost. A repair won't cost me anything under warranty. That warranty could be a measly 90 days as it is in some countries but even that cost is factored into the price. 

    The cost of recycling and safe disposal are also included in the price and are free to the consumer at end of life. 

    Such is the nature of the beast that the heater can be had for 33€ (Inc 21% VAT) and include the expenses for warranty repairs and keeping spare parts stock for 15 years. That is to say the actual added cost is negligible.

    And although a very basic product, the build quality is excellent and normally they work for years without issue. Mine actually hasn't completely failed. The element is turning itself off every now and then and blowing unheated air around for two or three seconds.

    My only complaint on the design is that they aren't easy to open for dust removal (like cooling fans, hairdryers and old iMacs). 
  • Reply 13 of 17
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,703member
    avon b7 said:
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    AllM said:
    avon b7 said:
    The EU Commission is 'bound' to hear all complaints... thereby ensuring that they will be employed forever, as the complaints from the Ek's and Sweeney's will be just that.. forever. Frankly the bureaucracy that has become the EU is mind boggling.
    If you've read through the text of the DSA/DMA you would quickly realise that sitting back and doing nothing to reign in the control gatekeepers would be mind boggling. 

    Spotify, and literally anybody, can file complaints. Some of them may lead to formal investigations.

    As for compliance, well, as we can see from this process, that is yet to be determined, which in itself, blows a huge hole in the arguments of some people who insisted that Apple had complied simply because the 7th March had gone by without protests from the EU. 

    The comments stated here from Apple legal are standard fare with claims of values (which are never detailed) and compliance but followed up with pure fluff like the consumer experience etc.

    As I've said a few times already. We just have to wait and see now. 
    I still don’t understand why you keep stickin’ up for them politicians. They are mostly shortsighted, technologically illiterate, and only ever care about lining their pockets. 
    I don't stick up for anyone. LOL. 

    I can be very critical of policitians like, for example, anyone involved with Brexit, or those doing nothing to clean up UK rivers, or even my local policitians who once shut down a local welfare centre providing free meals to the needy during the month of August arguing there wasn't enough in the budget to cover operating costs while at the same time spending a quarter of a million euros on some sculptures for the beach. 

    There are good and bad politicians. There are good and bad decisions but, mostly, the EU has worked to benefit its citizens. The results are visible. 

    I'm writing this from a train sitting next to a giant sign explaining how much EU money was used to install an ATP system on my stretch of line. The air I breathe is cleaner thanks to EU regulations. I will be taking in a Rowenta heater (now in its third year) for repair under warranty next week. The parts needed for that repair will be available for at least 10 years. All thanks to the EU. For this heater in particular, parts will be available for 15 years. 

    If it ever needs to be repaired again and out of warranty the price has to be fair (again, thanks to the EU). Today that is a 26€ repair if I choose to go for a flat fee repair. 

    Last year I had to go for an emergency consultation on what turned out to be a torn retina. I ended up with argon laser shots to shore things up. All free. 

    The seawater that I swim in is tested daily and reports are posted weekly on display boards at the beach. Those are EU regulations. 

    I have micro, mini, temporary and fixed green points available to me for recycling e-waste (or any other waste that isn't organic, paper, glass, plastic...) . If I buy a large electrical appliance, the seller has to take the old one away if I have no other plans for it. All for free. 

    They are all the result of political decisions. 

    Most of the EU directives impacting Apple have been around for years. The DMA/DSA are simply efforts to bring legislation into line with current reality. 

    There is another big directive in the pipe concerning how long products should last but Apple can take a breather here. The first industry to be impacted by that will be the textile industry. 


    Good exposition, - thanks! The problem with those initiatives, though, is that the manufacturers aren’t likely to shoulder the burden of increased expenses, and the product pricing itself is the one thing governments cannot explicitly regulate. So stuff is going to get even more expensive. 
    That’s where competition comes in but if Apple is doing its part to eliminate competition something needs to change, hence what we currently have: DSA/DMA.

    Something similar may pop up in the US but maybe Tim will decide to visit the White House more often and try to persuade government to not do that. 
    But Apple ISN’T killing competition. This is the thing people are so blind to see.

    Spotify is claiming Apple is killing competition but it owns 56% of the music streaming sector with Apple down around 13%. How did Spotify get there? On Apple’s platform with Apple actively promoting it. How is that killing competition?

    Now Spotify is so big it feels it needs special treatment. The problem here is that Apple won’t give it that special treatment because THAT is what kills competition. Apple treats Spotify the same as it treats a teenage developer because that KEEPS competition active.

    So because Spotify can’t get its way on a platform Apple OWNS from start to finish, they lobby the EU to attack companies like Apple.

    You claim that the DMA rules have been around for years but you also disregard the efforts Apple has done to adhere to those laws in order to continue to operate in the EU. If Apple had being doing wrong by EU law it would have been slammed by now if, as you say, those laws already existed.

    The worst the EU has done was come at them with regards to having their European business run out of Ireland but Apple did no wrong there because it was in fact following the rules set out by the EU. Was it a loophole? Maybe, but it was 100% legal until the EU realised it wasn’t getting a bunch of money illegally. And it is illegal how the EU went after Irish based companies because the law allowed for businesses to base themselves in Ireland.

    Im not saying everything the EU is doing is wrong, just that the EU isn’t doing a good job of going after actual people or businesses that are operating illegally.

    The DMA exists not to bring EU law up to date but to try and swindle more money from overseas businesses to try and booster European companies who are all failing.
    I didn't say the DMA rules have been around for years but that competition directives have been around for years. Along with others on e-waste, consumer protections etc.

    Killing competition is done by not allowing it to exist. Most, if not all of Apple's changes have been a direct result of complaints, investigations or directives. Without those nothing would have changed and Apple likes to argue it has expenses to pay by providing frameworks, payment processing systems and whatnot but prefers to keep the actual numbers of the business conveniently shielded by a screen of corporate secrets which could damage its business interests. 

    Not allowing anyone to use NFC hardware was anti-competitive. Forcing anyone who wanted to use a wallet system to use Apple Pay was anti-competitive. As was not allowing third party app stores. As was anti-steering. 

    As for complying with EU law, Apple mostly has a good record but is far from totally clean. AppleCare has been a continuous problem for consumer protection bodies and multiple fines have been applied. 

    The Danes famously argued that an old iBook had a design flaw but Apple refused to accept the idea. That case went down the x-ray route and I believe ended up in court. Apple accepted the final ruling.

    Their is no 'bias' in the EU system and many decisions go to appeal and are changed. That is why Apple went for years without getting slapped. It took complaints to really get the ball rolling. It doesn't mean what they were doing all those years actually adhered to laws. 

    There is no EU version of General Melchett overseeing the court processes as if Speckled Jim were in play. Although back in Brexit Blighty I would be surprised to see pigeons doing the messaging again. 

    The Irish Affair isn't over yet and never contemplated the whole period of Apple's sweetheart deal anyway. We'll have to wait for the outcome of that. 

    Apple had a multi billion dollar deal with the Chinese government too (until relatively recently). 
    muthuk_vanalingamVictorMortimer
  • Reply 14 of 17
    xyzzy-xxxxyzzy-xxx Posts: 185member
    The latest that I have read is that Apple will not be allowed to notarize any app from an alternative app store. Hands off completely? Call me crazy but that sounds like the EU commission will take some responsibility for app safety. I would think, if this is true, that Apple will need to change the warranty on iPhones, to exclude coverage on phones that have installed malware that have damaged the phone or caused any security issues. Of course iPhones can be reset (in most cases if not bricked) but you would really need to trust the developer and the alternate app store. No thanks for me.
    Where did you hear that? Currently Apple does the notarization (and check for malware) for alternative app stores.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 17
    avon b7 said:

    I didn't say the DMA rules have been around for years but that competition directives have been around for years. Along with other on e-waste, consumer protections etc.

    Killing competition is done by not allowing it to exist. Most, if not all of Apple's changes have been a direct result of complaints, investigations or directives. Without those nothing would have changed and Apple likes to argue it has expenses to pay by providing frameworks, payment processing systems and whatnot but prefers to keep the actual numbers of the business conveniently shielded by a screen of corporate secrets which could damage its business interests. 

    Not allowing anyone to use NFC hardware was anti-competitive. Forcing anyone who wanted to use a wallet system to use Apple Pay was anti-competitive. As was not allowing third party app stores. As was anti-steering. 

    As for complying with EU law, Apple mostly has a good record but is far from totally clean. AppleCare has been a continuous problem for consumer protection bodies and multiple fines have been applied. 

    The Danes famously argued that an old iBook had a design flaw but Apple refused to accept the idea. That case went down the x-ray route and I believe ended up in court. Apple accepted the final ruling.

    Their is no 'bias' in the EU system and many decisions go to appeal and are changed. That is why Apple went for years without getting slapped. It took complaints to really get the ball rolling. It doesn't mean what they were doing all those years actually adhered to laws. 

    There is no EU version of General Melchett overseeing the court processes as if Speckled Jim were in play. Although back in Brexit Blighty I would be surprised to see pigeons doing the messaging again. 

    The Irish Affair isn't over yet and never contemplated the whole period of Apple's sweetheart deal anyway. We'll have to wait for the outcome of that. 

    Apple had a multi billion dollar deal with the Chinese government too (until relatively recently). 
    I never said you said the DMA always existed. As you say, you said the rules exited beforehand. The DMA is just an amalgamation of something that already existed.

    My point still exists. If the rules already existed irrespective of the name, then Apple had to already be adhering to those laws in order to operate on the EU and yet it’s only now that Apple is being punished under the DMA.

    This seems wrong because the DMA is a new thing but implements old rules which Apple obeyed. Then the EU created the DMA and charges Apple for failing to comply with this new made up set of rules with very minimal time for Apple to act and retroactively punished Apple.

    [sarcasm]Seems legit to me[/sarcasm]

    Why has Apple won on appeal if it’s not doing the right thing? Surely if the EU has legal grounds Apple should have been pinged already and yet it hasn’t. This is my point.

    It’s easy to side with the EU if you hate Apple but the courts don’t seem to be siding with the governments.

    It’s no different in the States from what I’ve seen. But what do I know? I’m here at the bottom of the world in New Zealand watching the world above me seem to fall over itself to scam money out of successful people and companies.

    We have a name for it. It’s called “Tall Poppy Syndrome” and it’s a ugly trait and we here in New Zealand are the masters of it.
    tmayAllMwatto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 17
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,348member
    xyzzy-xxx said:
    The latest that I have read is that Apple will not be allowed to notarize any app from an alternative app store. Hands off completely? Call me crazy but that sounds like the EU commission will take some responsibility for app safety. I would think, if this is true, that Apple will need to change the warranty on iPhones, to exclude coverage on phones that have installed malware that have damaged the phone or caused any security issues. Of course iPhones can be reset (in most cases if not bricked) but you would really need to trust the developer and the alternate app store. No thanks for me.
    Where did you hear that? Currently Apple does the notarization (and check for malware) for alternative app stores.

    https://twitter.com/KayJebelli
    Interesting detail: the EC told Apple that they aren't allowed to notarize apps to protect users. So "government authorities are the ones that are going to have to step up to protect" app developers and users from the risks of these 3rd-party apps.

    https://twitter.com/POB_journo/status/1529848339679875074

    He called it an “aberration to democracy that a company, as innovative as it may be, believes itself to be more of a custodian of public interest than democratically elected governments.” https://pro.politico.eu/news/150294 Full interview out soon.
















    VictorMortimerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 17
    The latest that I have read is that Apple will not be allowed to notarize any app from an alternative app store. Hands off completely? Call me crazy but that sounds like the EU commission will take some responsibility for app safety. I would think, if this is true, that Apple will need to change the warranty on iPhones, to exclude coverage on phones that have installed malware that have damaged the phone or caused any security issues. Of course iPhones can be reset (in most cases if not bricked) but you would really need to trust the developer and the alternate app store. No thanks for me.

    That's the stupidest thing I've read today.

    Does Apple void the warranty on Macs because of 3rd party software?  No, not only would it be stupid, it would be illegal in the EU and the US.  At this point, any anti-consumer action Apple could take to 'punish' consumers for exercising their rights is going to be met with MASSIVE fines.

    If malware can 'brick' a phone, then it's not fit for purpose, and Apple needs to not only replace it at their expense, Apple needs to fix the problem or plan on replacing millions of phones for free along with HUGE fines for selling garbage. 

    It's nonsense, of course.  Unless Apple has been truly stupid in their modifications of a UNIX-like OS that is a derivative of the fully certified UNIX macOS, it will never be an issue.  It's long past time to open all the iDevices for normal software installation from any source of the device owner's choosing, not just an idiotic 'app store' whether it's run by Apple or anybody else.
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