So which is it? yay more free will discussion
I often hear two seemingly contradictory statements uttered by many religious folk these days. god has a plan and free will exists. When someone dies young in an accident, I often hear things along the lines of "well, god works in mysterious ways he has a plan best not question his will." Yet, at the same time this master plan exists there somehow is free will.
Answer me a couple things:
1) Explain how a master plan and free will can coexist.
2) If there exists a master plan, what is the point in praying for something? If it's in the plan then you'll get it so quit wasting your time.
Note to groverat: This thread is not flaimbait nor was the other one you locked. I'm sorry but religion just does not make a lick of sense to me and I'm trying to understand the point of view of (unfortunately) the majority of the people living in my country and around the world.
Answer me a couple things:
1) Explain how a master plan and free will can coexist.
2) If there exists a master plan, what is the point in praying for something? If it's in the plan then you'll get it so quit wasting your time.
Note to groverat: This thread is not flaimbait nor was the other one you locked. I'm sorry but religion just does not make a lick of sense to me and I'm trying to understand the point of view of (unfortunately) the majority of the people living in my country and around the world.
Comments
This is a Theological quandry that has bedevilled religious thinkers since the year dot.
Personally, I believe we are free-will creatures. & that means that the universe is NOT entirely pre-determined in terms of having " God " constantly steering events.
We have choices..hence Moral & ethical issues.
The assumption that God exists to steer events ther4 attatches evil to God...in explanation of things occuring on this earth that are not good..eg people dying young..wars,diseases etc.
If you want to read something that may or may not rattle your cage..(I hope you have the courage ), then dip into these two sets of web pages.
They may or may not change you as they changed me.
But that's OK , as I am not here to convert you..
Besides which, I can't believe in a religion that asks me leave me questions & doubts at the door.
http://www.urantia.org
http://www.truthbook.org
Keep asking questions but be open to the answers you might get......life is strange & full of suprises !!
Alright. Can someone answer the question and not try to convert me? [/QUOTE
Like I said...I am not trying to convert you..
But don't let my plain english stand in the way of your predjudices..
Nothing like asking an " open question "with a " closed mind ".. But that is your perogative...
On the free will thing, as individuals we don't control a great deal of what happens to us---who are family is, our nationality, the laws that govern us, other people's actions. It's a fairly narrow set of choices in the end.
As for the master plan you are trying to mix to very different spheres of authority. Think of a master plan, as a screenplay and the actual execution of that plan like going to see the movie. Or like a novel or short story, in To Build A Fire the main character dies in the end, who didn't have free will---but he still made his own choices.
If the basic Theology of Christianity is correct, you are dealing with an omniscient being. If that being were not confined by time, at the VERY least he would have the "time" find know what you were going to do before you did it.
Originally posted by aquafire
Like I said...I am not trying to convert you..
But don't let my plain english stand in the way of your predjudices..
Nothing like asking an " open question "with a " closed mind ".. But that is your perogative...
No, you're just sending me to your website where I can find god when I asked you specifically if a master plan and free will can exist.
I would imagine if mankind had put all the effort of killing each other into finding cures for diseases, things could be much better than they are now.
....but as it stands, we can't even be civil to each other on an internet fourm---I think we have a ways to go before we start pointing fingers at God.
Personally, though, I accept free will and don't believe any fate/master plan stuff.
This is better, but you're still trying to attract people to a discussion by throwing large balls of crap at them.
Then you're shocked it doesn't work? heh, I think religion isn't the only thing you don't understand.
2) It's all part of the plan. Like how nobody ever goes to the toilet in hollywood movies...
Originally posted by ena
Also on the disease and death thing: that would go back to the concept of sin, which was (following the same theology) man's choice to bring into a perfect world.
Hmm. If we were without sin before we ate the apple why did we do it then. We chose to have a choice (and by that to sin). But before that did we really have the ability to choose? Weren´t we like small children that didn´t knew what we were doing.
Originally posted by groverat
It's a wonder with such an open-minded and peaceful manner and attitude that no one really wants to open up to you about a matter as personal as religion, BR. It's almost incomprehensible.
This is better, but you're still trying to attract people to a discussion by throwing large balls of crap at them.
Then you're shocked it doesn't work? heh, I think religion isn't the only thing you don't understand.
You say I'm hostile. You say my posts are flaimbait. Read your own oh powerful mod.
Originally posted by BR
1) Explain how a master plan and free will can coexist.
I can't
but I can say one thing . . . I sure would feel all powerfull ifn that God's great plan failed because I chose door #3
heehee?
God - "oh damn him!! ..now I gotta start all over"
Originally posted by BR
Alright. Can someone answer the question and not try to convert me?
This has been discussed many times before. here is an easy way. just becuase I know what will happen to you in the future, does that mean I made you do it? No. that just means I knew what you were going to do. and knowing this information, I can use some if it possibly in one way or another, but you still made the choices.
Originally posted by Anders the White
Hmm. If we were without sin before we ate the apple why did we do it then. We chose to have a choice (and by that to sin). But before that did we really have the ability to choose? Weren´t we like small children that didn´t knew what we were doing.
I think the Christian (Muslim too, maybe) dogma on that is that mankind had choices to make regarding everything else---the break with the original theism came once man decided to test the apple to make sure God knew what he was talking about. Once you start scrutinizing the validity of "revealed truth" you are basically at odds with "truth" or reality, and so on, and so forth.
That is where in Christianity this huge issue of redemption comes into play---Islam doesn't claim the need for that kind of reconciliation---in place of that you have practices that will give you a reasonable chance of getting into paradise.
Once one assumes that God is "good" or "male" then you're locked into certain ways of thinking.
In my religion we believe that there are only two things about a persons life that are predetermined their birth and their death. We believe that everything between those two times can be known. One of the central characters in our religion is Elegba.
Elegba: represents the crossroads or the ever present choices in life. Thus the possibilities for humans are predetermined, yet the actual path that one takes is determined by the choices you make.
I would submit that God does know how things will play out and yet we also have free will. God knows what will happen from start to finish and within this period all choices are made freely by all creatures. God gave us free will yet that is not to say God never steps into the equation. Jesus is a great example of God "stepping" into the equation. There are many accounts in the Bible where by one way or another God steps into the equation.
We are free to do as we wish.
Fellowship