For driving enthusist...Tiptronic the way of the future?
It seems more and more manufacturers are offering a form of Tiptronic transmission.
Firstly, I'm just wondering if there are any limitations in a Tiptronic transmission. It's really convenient for that stop and go traffic, but are there any specific things it can't do that a stick can?
Can one "outshift" a stick with a Tip? My dealer says yes...because the computer is faster more skilled than most drivers of stick.
Secondly, do you think this will eventually be the standard transmission offered?
Firstly, I'm just wondering if there are any limitations in a Tiptronic transmission. It's really convenient for that stop and go traffic, but are there any specific things it can't do that a stick can?
Can one "outshift" a stick with a Tip? My dealer says yes...because the computer is faster more skilled than most drivers of stick.
Secondly, do you think this will eventually be the standard transmission offered?
Comments
http://www.audiusa.com/family_attrib...ass-2_,00.html
Originally posted by groverat
I would like a detailed explanation of how it works.
Tiptronic is more a robotic transmission rather an automatic one. Basically like the F1, you have two button in the center of your driving wheel : one two pass the upper transmission speed, one two pass the lower. There is no pedal of transmission, just one for the brake and one for the accelerator.
One of the advantage, is that this robotic transmission is faster than the human (that's why Ferrari and others use it), it did not loss energy like the automatic transmission : it's a direct transmission like the stick.
Not all the robotic transmission have the same performances , some are faster than others.
In short tiptronic are robotised transmisson with control in the driving wheel. It's not an automatic transmission and it won't choose the right speed for you. Unlike automatic transmission there is no loss of energy (automatic : nearly 5 % of loss of power) and thus better performances.
There is also a interesting automatic transmission from audi it's the variotronic, it's an automatic but direct transmission via a conic device. it has all the advantages of an automatic transmission, but he did not vaste power.
the first is what is offered by most carmakers: it's basically a normal automatic with manual shift control. there is still a torque converter. this has many names: AutoStick, Tiptronic, Steptronic, etcetera.
it provides faster shifts than most can accomplish with a manual transmission, but not as good as 'good' drivers.
the other sort is the semi-automatic; it has no torque converter, it's basically a manual transmission that has computer controlled shifting.
shifts can occur in less than 20milliseconds.
This is seen on Ferraris, BMW M cars, some Alfas (I believe), Maseratis, and some brand new Audis (under the name DSG).
The second is vastly superior to the first. It truly provides enough control (and without the sapping effects of a torque converter) that it can replace a manual for truly sporting driving.
You can tell the difference because the semiautomatics generally come with paddles behind the steering wheel to shift with, rather than the awkwardly placed buttons. Unfortunately, the cheapest of them runs as $3k option... the SMG (BMW) runs about $5k, as does the Ferrari F1...
Originally posted by Jonathan
there are two type of pseudomanual automatic transmissions.
the first is what is offered by most carmakers: it's basically a normal automatic with manual shift control. there is still a torque converter. this has many names: AutoStick, Tiptronic, Steptronic, etcetera.
it provides faster shifts than most can accomplish with a manual transmission, but not as good as 'good' drivers.
the other sort is the semi-automatic; it has no torque converter, it's basically a manual transmission that has computer controlled shifting.
shifts can occur in less than 20milliseconds.
This is seen on Ferraris, BMW M cars, some Alfas (I believe), Maseratis, and some brand new Audis (under the name DSG).
The second is vastly superior to the first. It truly provides enough control (and without the sapping effects of a torque converter) that it can replace a manual for truly sporting driving.
You can tell the difference because the semiautomatics generally come with paddles behind the steering wheel to shift with, rather than the awkwardly placed buttons. Unfortunately, the cheapest of them runs as $3k option... the SMG (BMW) runs about $5k, as does the Ferrari F1...
Thanks for the clarification Jonathan
I am with you : torque converters are a waste of power, semi automatized or robotized transmission are superior, but they cost more money ...
The six-speed Antonov auto is smaller, lighter, and cheaper to produce than anything else on the market, yet gives smooth shifting while using up to 20% less fuel than an ordinary automatic gearbox.
This latter facility puts it on a par with, if not better, than the best CVT transmissions - Audi's Multitronic is a prime example - while costing considerably less to manufacture and maintain.
In fact, CVT gearboxes are currently the most expensive options on the market, coming in around 20% more than the most sophisticated sequential "tiptronic" type gearboxes, which themselves add 3% to 5% to the price of a car with a 5-speed manual gearbox.
By comparison, the Antonov gearbox can be built at as little as 40% of the cost of a CVT 'box - less than half the price - and not a lot more than the cost of a manual gearbox.
What's more, while CVT transmissions currently have a safe operating torque limitation of the order of 300 to 400 Nm, the Antonov gearbox has no such limitation.
Furthermore the Antonov transmission takes up less room, is lighter, and has fewer working parts, making it potentially more reliable.
The principles involved in the Antonov gearbox are currently being investigated by a number of the world's top gearbox manufacturers as well as vehicle manufacturers Honda, BMW, Ford, and Peugeot.
Designer Roumen Antonov left Bulgaria in 1988 and settled in France, where he started work on a new type of automatic gearbox that would require fewer of the power-sapping hydraulics conventional auto 'boxes need to operate.
Mechanical force
The Antonov gearbox makes use of a mechanical force produced as the angled teeth of helical gears mesh.
Antonov uses the forces created by the helical gears to assist the hydraulics that move the gearsets in conventional designs. The Antonov 'box also does not require a torque converter, which absorbs a great deal of power.
At only 25 cm deep the Antonov gearbox is appreciably smaller and lighter than other automatics.
Because of the lack of hydraulics and torque converter, the designer also claims that it is also more efficient, providing faster acceleration, higher top speeds and offering fuel savings of up to 20%.
Since it can be produced using conventional machining methods and plant, it is also cheaper to manufacture.
Antonov's company has no plans to manufacture the transmission, but in collaborating with major gearbox manufacturers such as Getrag and Fiat-GM Powertrain in Europe and Aisin and Jatco in Japan, it is hoping to sell its technology and to work with the specialist manufacturers to develop the principles involved.
A further advantage is that the Antonov gearbox has six speeds, rather than the four or five of most other automatic gearboxes, thanks to its modular construction.
This in turn means modules can be combined to provide even an eight-speed gearbox - especially tempting for a sporting car.
One leading motor manufacturer has confirmed that a developed version of Antonov's six-speed gearbox meets its future need for an automatic.
It has also confirmed that for mass production, no principle problems are perceived which could prevent the gearbox from reaching the required shift quality level.
And a French producer of specialised sports performance gearboxes for the French automotive industry, including Renault and Peugeot, has signed a production licence.
http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/N...365592,00.html
Another nicety is in winter-time when the streets are slick with snow and ice. You can use it to quickly up-shift to 2nd gear to get better grip when starting from a stop. Along with this, the down side is that you DON'T get the flexibility of a clutch, where you can ride the torque on the fly to get immediate grip. Oh well, it's better than nothing.
I drove a stick before this car, and I got tired of constantly shifting all the time and having to push in the clutch. The Sonata's transmission does all the work most of the time, but I can have some more "control" over it when I choose -- and still without a clutch.
Then there's the coolness factor when you carry friends who haven't seen it in action before. Haulin' ass off the line as you shift the transmission in your mid-sized sedan gets you a couple of "that's pretty cool!" At least it does for me.
that said, I've got a 6 speed multitronic in an Audi A4 - and I'm v impressed. didn't go for the gear paddles on the steering wheel - tho they do look a good toy
the automatic is very smooth and responsive; sliding across to manual is seamless, but the manual did take a bit of getting used to. flipping up and down is a bit alien after years of throwing gears around in older cars.
and even when i'm in auto, my hand instinctively sits on the gear stick. doubt that habit will ever go
hang loose
--------------
london weather - glorious
now playing - Jello/Damask
Originally posted by brandnewfatboy
Is it for the driving enthusiast? not sure - with a good manual gearbox, I find there's a little more 'feel' that tells you you're in control of the car.
that said, I've got a 6 speed multitronic in an Audi A4 - and I'm v impressed. didn't go for the gear paddles on the steering wheel - tho they do look a good toy
the automatic is very smooth and responsive; sliding across to manual is seamless, but the manual did take a bit of getting used to. flipping up and down is a bit alien after years of throwing gears around in older cars.
and even when i'm in auto, my hand instinctively sits on the gear stick. doubt that habit will ever go
hang loose
--------------
london weather - glorious
now playing - Jello/Damask
What is the motor of your car ?
Is the multitronic, the automatic transmission with direct link via a conic device allowing no waste of power and therefore the same level of performance than the classical gearbox ?
What is the motor of your car ?
Is the multitronic, the automatic transmission with direct link via a conic device allowing no waste of power and therefore the same level of performance than the classical gearbox ?
It's a 2.0 petrol A4 - new range.
Not quite sure what the conic device might be. (and i'm not particularly au fait with the innards of gearboxes). This is what Audi have to say
Multitronic is the world's first high performance continuously variable transmission. It operates more smoothly than the best conventional automatic yet can accelerate as fast and is virtually as economical as a manual. The secret of the high-tech multitronic is a theoretically infinite number of gear ratios. In practice it allows seamless jolt-free acceleration right up to maximum speed with no effort and no time lost in changing gears. Multitronic also has a manual mode for fingertip selection of a six-speed 'virtual' gearbox.
Audi
from this link, there is a performance features/multitronic section that shows a pic of a fat chain thing. I presume this is the key device.
um, same level of performance of a classical gearbox? no idea - have never had a car as good as this one before and didn't try other gearboxes when choosing. it's certainly quick, considering the 2.0 petrol is the cheapest A4 (3.0 quattro will have to wait)
have anyone come across pages that explain how auto boxes are built, and the different types available?
hang loose
G
-------------
now playing: Herbie Hancock/Dolphin Dance
Originally posted by brandnewfatboy
Is it for the driving enthusiast?
Simply put, I don't think it is...or at least not nearly as much as a regular manual tranny.
Some higher-end vehicles with the manu-matic may have very high performance, but I'm imagining that your average every day vehicle from the big three (Ford, GM, Chrysler) won't totally please the "driving enthusiast."
Originally posted by brandnewfatboy
It's a 2.0 petrol A4 - new range.
Not quite sure what the conic device might be. (and i'm not particularly au fait with the innards of gearboxes). This is what Audi have to say
Audi
from this link, there is a performance features/multitronic section that shows a pic of a fat chain thing. I presume this is the key device.
um, same level of performance of a classical gearbox? no idea - have never had a car as good as this one before and didn't try other gearboxes when choosing. it's certainly quick, considering the 2.0 petrol is the cheapest A4 (3.0 quattro will have to wait)
have anyone come across pages that explain how auto boxes are built, and the different types available?
hang loose
G
-------------
now playing: Herbie Hancock/Dolphin Dance
Nice car. Yes the multitronic is what i referered to. It's conceptualy the best automatic transmission avalaible. For the moment the torque is limited and thus cannot be linked with all the motorisations.
This gearbox allow you to have the same energy consomption than a classical gearbox.
You have done a great buy : congratulations.
You have done a great buy : congratulations
thanks - am very pleased with the A4
to come back to satchmo's original point, one of the advantages of the multitronic is how easy it is to drive in London traffic, which is mostly awful. keep it in auto for all the stop-starts, play with the manual mode when out on the open road
A wider question - if you're a 'driving enthusiast', what what kind of driver are you ?
someone who drives their car on the limit at all times?
someone who loves cruising motorways?
someone who's happy going 45mph in a convertible classic car, with the top down on a sunny day?
any of the above could be enthusiasts i reckon
personally I'm in the middle category.
friends of mine love the edge-of-the-seat, dancing-with-danger stuff. having written off a car 10 years ago, I avoid the on-the-limit stuff. my preference, with a big saloon, is cruising motorways at 80-90mph - effortless and fun
(although crusing at 80-90mph in a modern convertible, with the top down on a sunny day could well be even better)
hang loose
------------------
now playing - Herbie Hancock/Dolphin Dance (again)
I think the way to go is the Ferrari/BMW semi-automatic manual transmissions. It can shift faster and more smoothly than yourself. The chances of grabbing 2nd instead of the intended 4th on the track (a Very Bad Thing) is also minimized with this system.
Personally, I'll stick with manuals. I'll never be a real racer, but I can play one on the internet.