Holy Eucharist

fellowshipfellowship
Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
I am not Catholic and I respect Catholics with all my love and respect. What I open this thread over is the topic of "Holy Eucharist"



Not all Christians view the bread and the wine in the same way Catholics do.



What is your opinion of this idea of Holy Eucharist? Is it religious over kill? Is it what Jesus wanted?



Eucharist adoration is part of many Catholic experience. Believers sit and pray in adoration of the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist. They believe Jesus is fully in the Sacrament.



This link explains further:



http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Catechism/3/l22.html



I believe Jesus lives in me and thus I do not need to look at a display at a Catholic church to adore Jesus.



I pray to and worship Jesus but I have to wonder if the Catholic idea of the bread and wine is not a bit over-played.





I will admit I do not know. I just ask you all what your ideas over this matter are.... How do you see it?



Fellowship
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 50
    naderfannaderfan Posts: 156member
    I view Holy Communion as very important, both personally and to Christianity in general. But I also believe that the bread and wine remain bread and wine. I believe that it is blessed, and that God is present; however, to say the bread truly becomes the body of Christ and wine His blood is a bit too much for me. I also think that too much bitterness and falling out has occurred between denominations because of our inability to look past these types of things. In the grand scheme of life, and especially in Christianity, things like Communion, adult vs infant baptism, the Holy Episcapet (sp?), and so on and so forth, are very minor. I think it's sad that Christians can't (or won't) share Communion with each other just because one might be Catholic and the other not, or one might be Episcopalian and the other Lutheran, etc. But there's a long winded answer to say that I don't share the same views as Catholics on this subject, but I still respect them.
  • Reply 2 of 50
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook



    Taking the Eucharist is how one shares in the development of the mystical body of christ.



    The body is the Church (not the physical church building) but the Church as exemplified through the collective sharing of the gift-of-death and rebirth of Jesus. It is the Spirit that is desseminated in the ritual and that is the Body and Blood of Christ in that it is the Church.



    Catholics say that they believe that the wine really becomes the blood, and the bread the body . . . but if you think of the ritual as actuating the coming-into-being of the Body of Christ in the instatiation of the Church, then it is really a transformation through the collective -the bread becomes the body through the collective sharing the Rite, and therfore, becoming the church which is the becoming of the Body of Christ.

    That's why Catholics are always going on about being the one-true faith and Apostolic Church etc . . . because its all about the Mystical Body (ie: the Church): the body of Christ as realized through gift of the sacrifice: a gift which which we can accept and therfore partake of the becoming of the Church



    'Ritual' is all about establishing extra-temporal (cyclical time, mythic time, non-linear time etc) forms of signicficance, creating stories that organize the daily things of life into coherent wholes. Its a kind of activity that structures the effemeral and the mundane aspects of life: ritual is a kind of Power (in the Foucaultian sense) that structures experience. So the Eucharist is a ritual that supposedly re-lives the gift of the sacrifice and rebirth and establishes that as the structuring principle for collective daily life. Therefore actually making that mundane life part of the coming-of the Spirit.



    The Eucharist is part of a series of observances one must repent (confess) as well as a whole host *ehem* of other things.



    in a way it marks the difference twixt Protestant (protesting the church) and Catholicism ('catholic' meaning all embracing) Catholicism is about living the spirit as the Church and as the becoming of the Body of Christ . . therefore it is about how you manifest the coming into being of that body, the unifying under Christ in the world therefore works are a measure of your faith and life in the Spirit. Whereas Protestants believe that faith is enough without any measure of external realization.



    I am not Catholic (anymore) nor am I at all religious in any recognizable sense, but, I know that the Eucharist is a truly profound ritual . . . if you get bogged down in the dogma and the nit-picky this-and-that than you miss the whole point. besides some other churchs do variations on the Eucharist



    Just some thoughts from a thorough pagan heathen . . .
  • Reply 3 of 50
    superkarate monkeydeathcarsuperkarate monkeydeathcar Posts: 2,407member
    what was the movie? ghandi? where he made the cannibalism joke in reference to to the eucharist.?



    as an alter boy in the methodist church, i remember thinking the sacrament of baptism was basically the extortion of parents. taking away babies free will before they even could hold there heads up.



    catholicism is hardly alone in its making itself obsolete by smothering itself in outdated dogmatic traditions. any institution nearing 2000 years old is bound to have some quirks. at least the pope doesn't have an army any more to go out and slaughter people now.



    but i mean, the sacrifices they demand of priests is bordering on the perverse, and we sit around and scratch our heads when it's warped reality rears its head and we find out that there are two kinds of catholic clergy, those that are sick, and those that are blind to it.
  • Reply 4 of 50
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    and a third: bad drivers!!
  • Reply 5 of 50
    fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Naderfan

    I view Holy Communion as very important, both personally and to Christianity in general. But I also believe that the bread and wine remain bread and wine. I believe that it is blessed, and that God is present; however, to say the bread truly becomes the body of Christ and wine His blood is a bit too much for me. I also think that too much bitterness and falling out has occurred between denominations because of our inability to look past these types of things. In the grand scheme of life, and especially in Christianity, things like Communion, adult vs infant baptism, the Holy Episcapet (sp?), and so on and so forth, are very minor. I think it's sad that Christians can't (or won't) share Communion with each other just because one might be Catholic and the other not, or one might be Episcopalian and the other Lutheran, etc. But there's a long winded answer to say that I don't share the same views as Catholics on this subject, but I still respect them.



    I agree with your points 100%



    Thank you for your careful reply with attention to honesty and detail.



    Fellowship
  • Reply 6 of 50
    fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pfflam

    The words of pfflam



    Thanks pfflam for adding to this thread. I appriciate your imput.



    Fellowship
  • Reply 7 of 50
    superkarate monkeydeathcarsuperkarate monkeydeathcar Posts: 2,407member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pfflam

    and a third: bad drivers!!



    very good!
  • Reply 8 of 50
    dogcowdogcow Posts: 713member
    Growing up in private Catholic schools I was always taught that The bread and wine were the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Participating in the eucharist is a physical reminder of the last summer and a reminder that God is within us. The Eucharist is the central part of the Catholic faith because it is the sacrament that physically connects us to God. We are reminded of the sacrifice of Jesus, who died for our sins.



    Personally, I always found it hard to believe that a priest muttering a few words while holding his hand over bread and wine would turn it into flesh and blood. In fact, I question the whole Catholic religion (not because of scandals or whatever, but on fundamental beliefs. Maybe I was just never taught right, or never listened) But that's another topic.



    I'm too tired to answer this completely. Maybe i'll look at it again in the morning.
  • Reply 9 of 50
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    A religion where god is his own daddy and followers cannibalize him by eating his magically transformed flesh and blood is quite ****ed up in my book.
  • Reply 10 of 50
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    You're ****ed up! hahaha. Ritual is a purer form of display for something that sits outside of "knowability."



    "Over the top" would be literal reading, though some Catholics (dumb ones) do this, rituals are, of their very nature, not literal but representative. This keeps things pure.
  • Reply 11 of 50
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    This keeps things pure.



    pure........BULL!
  • Reply 12 of 50
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    exactly, ideally, it would keepp you from reading your religion as literal fact. There's an experience that comes from pageantry/performance that helps us seperate reality from fantasy, relax the focus on literal fact, and understand the more dramatic/poetic arguments that religions make. If I saw a depiction of mystical canibalism in a movie, I'd think, "Cool." No reason why I shouldn't see that in a Religion and not think the same. But I read religion in a very unconventional way.
  • Reply 13 of 50
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    exactly, ideally, it would keepp you from reading your religion as literal fact. There's an experience that comes from pageantry/performance that helps us seperate reality from fantasy, relax the focus on literal fact, and understand the more dramatic/poetic arguments that religions make. If I saw a depiction of mystical canibalism in a movie, I'd think, "Cool." No reason why I shouldn't see that in a Religion and not think the same. But I read religion in a very unconventional way.



    This is where we differ.



    Mystical cannibalism in a movie: Wow, that's ****ed up.

    Mystical cannibalism in religion: Wow, that's ****ed up.
  • Reply 14 of 50
    ivanovivanov Posts: 1member
    In the Eastern Orthodox Church this analytical western concept

    of the Eucharist was never debated. The Eucharist was a Divine

    Mystery. To receive the Body and Blood of Christ is to partake of th

    Divine Energy. It was not until western concepts entered the church

    that this was debated. You would have to read the early church

    fathers teachings to fully understand the difference.

    God became man so that man could become god.
  • Reply 15 of 50
    dogcowdogcow Posts: 713member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ivanov

    In the Eastern Orthodox Church this analytical western concept

    of the Eucharist was never debated. The Eucharist was a Divine

    Mystery. To receive the Body and Blood of Christ is to partake of th

    Divine Energy. It was not until western concepts entered the church

    that this was debated. You would have to read the early church

    fathers teachings to fully understand the difference.

    God became man so that man could become god.



    I think thats an important part. It IS a Divine Mystery, which requires faith to believe. When you have faith you move beyond the literal words of what's happening and into the spiritual mystery. As humans we can't fully understand the mystery of the eucharist, which is why we need faith.
  • Reply 16 of 50
    moogsmoogs Posts: 4,296member
    Like most rituals of (any) church, the Eucharist is mostly meant as a symbolic thing IMO. There are of course those of older generations who believe that once the wafers and wine are blessed that they literally become a sort of physical link to Christ, but I doubt most Catholics look at it that way any longer.



    Obviously the Catholic Church is going through some trying times and re-evaluating its traditions as a whole (no women priests, priests not being allowed to have families, etc etc ad infinitum). While some the attention is extremely embarassing to many Catholics - rightfully so in the case of corrupt priests and bishops - I think all this attention and crticism can only be good for the Church in the long run.



    I was baptised and raised by a very Catholic (Irish Catholic on my mother's side) family so I know all the arguments left, right and sideways. To get back on track I don't think the Eucharist is even something the detractors of the Catholic Church should be looking at. Every Church has its own set of rituals and beliefs and traditions, and at least some of those will be found to be "unusual" or "over the top" by people of other rituals, beliefs and traditions.



    For example, I think many of the "revival sessions" experienced in more progressive, Bible-belt churches are way over the top. I don't know if I'm looking at a jamboree or a church service. To my eyes it seems almost disrespectful or maybe totally misplaced...but to the people who are clapping and singing and all that -- they love it. It means a lot to them and they wouldn't trade it for anything. So be it.



    My point is only that the Eucharist is simply a ritual to symbolize a way of linking ourselves to Christ. It is what it is. The things I would be more interested in debating (with Catholics and non-Catholics alike) are the real problems the future of the Church itself hinges upon. Stances on birth-control (not talking about abortion here), women in the Church, gays in the Church, etc etc. Those are the things that will define the future of an institution that has a wealth of both proud and not-so-proud moments...going all the way back to the time of Christ.
  • Reply 17 of 50
    fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Great post Moogs!



    I agree with your thoughts



    Fellows
  • Reply 18 of 50
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    The eucharist is important to Christians and especially Catholics I guess because it is something the whole community shares, something they all do together.
  • Reply 19 of 50
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Dogcow

    I think thats an important part. It IS a Divine Mystery, which requires faith to believe. When you have faith you move beyond the literal words of what's happening and into the spiritual mystery. As humans we can't fully understand the mystery of the eucharist, which is why we need faith.



    Yeah, see, why? What mystery? Some jackass priest tells everyone that you should eat the body and blood of christ through chips and wine and we NEED faith to understand the mystery of it? Again, what mystery?



    Bah. Faith is a cop-out.
  • Reply 20 of 50
    pfflampfflam Posts: 5,053member
    i think one of the reasons vinyl records went away was because they got BRoken and repeated themselves . . .



    know what i mean?!
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