What is VPC going to be like on a G5 with Panther. How is it with Panther any faster?
I just have a feeling that it may at last be a viable prospect.
I'm eager to see how well VPC performance improves as well. It's one of the big things where I'm hoping the power of my dual 2.0 GHz G5 will shine.
I'd be even more excited to see what some future G5 and Panther optimization might bring -- except for the sad fact that Microsoft now owns VPC as a result of buying out Connectix.
Somehow, I can't imagine Microsoft being all that interested in optimizing VPC for the G5 or Panther. Hell, if for some reason there turns out to be a G5 or Panther incompatibility bug, I'm going to be worried about how long, if ever, it'll take to get a fix.
why wouldn't Microsoft be interested in VPC6 working well on a G5? as long as they get their cut, they don't care if windows ran on every computer...
I doubt they'll be so enlightened. My guess is they'll use the guts of VPC to keep from ever releasing another Mac-specific version of Office, and quietly kill VPC as an independent app. With their antitrust troubles behind them, probably until at least 2008, they have every interest in eliminating the Mac as a viable platform. It seems unlikely/impossible that you could run Palladium on virtual hardware anyway (that would kinda defeat the purpose of the security chip).
To be fair, if MS did something to take away our current option of running VPC on a Mac they'd be opening themselves up to very clear accusations of abusing their position. It's not worth it for them. They may not develop (i.e. tune for 970) VPC but if they actually withdrew it from the market or stopped it working on G5s they would get mauled.
why wouldn't Microsoft be interested in VPC6 working well on a G5? as long as they get their cut, they don't care if windows ran on every computer...
Agreed. I assume that they sell Windows out to OEM manufacturers at less than the retail versions... so if they can sell VPC with Windows for $200 or whatever, why not? More revenue/profits for them, that they get to keep.
Agreed. I assume that they sell Windows out to OEM manufacturers at less than the retail versions... so if they can sell VPC with Windows for $200 or whatever, why not? More revenue/profits for them, that they get to keep.
True to an extent -- enough perhaps to keep MS from dropping VPC completely -- but not enough to motivate a great deal of effort or innovation. MS probably figures you need VPC to run some Windows-only software, and that your need won't depend much on whether that software runs fast or slow -- as long as it kinda, sorta runs, period.
One place you sure as hell can't expect much effort now is in how well VPC runs Linux. I won't be surprised if Linux support is dropped entirely.
Want to create multiple virtual PCs running Windows? Great! Just pay MS for each copy of Windows on each virtual PC, just as if each were a real, separately-purchased physical PC, and MS will gladly oblige. \
What is VPC going to be like on a G5 with Panther. How is it with Panther any faster?
I just have a feeling that it may at last be a viable prospect.
My two cents.
I think VPC 6 is going to scream on G5's, in fact I will go so far and say that VPC 6 will run Windows apps almost at native speeds.
The downside, VPC 6 will not be sold to consumers. Rather, it will be a tool for developers. This tool will allow developers to take their Windows application (most likely developed using Microsoft development tools) and allow them to run on Mac OS X without the need to program specifically for Carbon, Cocoa, or Java.
I doubt they'll be so enlightened. My guess is they'll use the guts of VPC to keep from ever releasing another Mac-specific version of Office, and quietly kill VPC as an independent app. With their antitrust troubles behind them, probably until at least 2008, they have every interest in eliminating the Mac as a viable platform. It seems unlikely/impossible that you could run Palladium on virtual hardware anyway (that would kinda defeat the purpose of the security chip).
Anything that can be done in software can be done in hardware and vice versa. There is no reason why Palladium could not run on VPC unless MS didn't want to make it run on VPC.
VPC is a virtual machine. There is no way for the standard windows OS to know that it is being run in software on a PPC chip.
Folks, I can' think of a single reason why VPC would run faster on a G5 (compared to a G4) except for the fact that G5's have higher clocked CPU's. Not one single reason.
64 bit doesn't do anything for you unless you are trying to run 64 bit windows.
The faster bus is nice, but I don't think that VPC is bus bound so much as it is bound to converting little endian number sto big endian and vice versa.
If the G5 had PPC instructions for converting litttle endian to big endian, then there would be a significant speed increase.
Most of the slowness in VPC comes from translating x86 into PPC for execution.
Don't get me wrong- VPC is an amazing product, but it won't be ten times faster because you are running on a G5.
Anything that can be done in software can be done in hardware and vice versa. There is no reason why Palladium could not run on VPC unless MS didn't want to make it run on VPC.
The point isn't that Palladium couldn't be emulated... of course it could. The point is that by emulating Palladium, you'd defeat its purpose. (I'm all for that, but MS wouldn't be!)
The "security" features (read plans for MS world dominance ) of Palladium would be laid bare via software emulation. An emulated Palladium would be much easier to tamper with and defeat than a physical chip which hides its secrets inside.
[Edit: days late, I notice tons of typos. Must fix!]
The point isn't that Palladium couldn't be emulated... of course it could. The point is that by emulating Palladium, you'd defeat its purpose. (I'm all for that, by MS wouldn't be!)
The "security" features (read plans for MS world dominance ) of Pallium would be laid bare via software emulation. An emulated Palladium would be much easier to tamper and defeat with than a physical chip which hide its secrets inside.
Couldn't someone that has the Panther Preview please run either VPC5 or VPC6 and tell us whether it works and if so whether faster than under Jaguar. Pretty please :-)
ok, everything "works" but when I was installing a few things looked like they didn't render correctly... like the headings of each step were hidden... it was weird...
when I get XP corporate from my friend i'll comment more... but it looks like it is functional from my end... but I'm sure it could be updated.... this is on a Rev A Bondi iMac with 288 megs of ram....
I'd be far more interested in the future of bochs, rather than VPC. It's an open-souce IA-32 emulator; so even if VPC isn't optimized for the G5, someone can grab the source and recompile with Apple's optimized gcc, no?
If that happens, I could easily see it spanking VPC. It's a neat little program.
Comments
Originally posted by Addison
What is VPC going to be like on a G5 with Panther. How is it with Panther any faster?
I just have a feeling that it may at last be a viable prospect.
I'm eager to see how well VPC performance improves as well. It's one of the big things where I'm hoping the power of my dual 2.0 GHz G5 will shine.
I'd be even more excited to see what some future G5 and Panther optimization might bring -- except for the sad fact that Microsoft now owns VPC as a result of buying out Connectix.
Somehow, I can't imagine Microsoft being all that interested in optimizing VPC for the G5 or Panther. Hell, if for some reason there turns out to be a G5 or Panther incompatibility bug, I'm going to be worried about how long, if ever, it'll take to get a fix.
Originally posted by Paul
why wouldn't Microsoft be interested in VPC6 working well on a G5? as long as they get their cut, they don't care if windows ran on every computer...
I doubt they'll be so enlightened. My guess is they'll use the guts of VPC to keep from ever releasing another Mac-specific version of Office, and quietly kill VPC as an independent app. With their antitrust troubles behind them, probably until at least 2008, they have every interest in eliminating the Mac as a viable platform. It seems unlikely/impossible that you could run Palladium on virtual hardware anyway (that would kinda defeat the purpose of the security chip).
its not like this A.G. or P.O.T.U.S. is going to do a damn thing about it.
Originally posted by Paul
why wouldn't Microsoft be interested in VPC6 working well on a G5? as long as they get their cut, they don't care if windows ran on every computer...
Agreed. I assume that they sell Windows out to OEM manufacturers at less than the retail versions... so if they can sell VPC with Windows for $200 or whatever, why not? More revenue/profits for them, that they get to keep.
Originally posted by MCQ
Agreed. I assume that they sell Windows out to OEM manufacturers at less than the retail versions... so if they can sell VPC with Windows for $200 or whatever, why not? More revenue/profits for them, that they get to keep.
True to an extent -- enough perhaps to keep MS from dropping VPC completely -- but not enough to motivate a great deal of effort or innovation. MS probably figures you need VPC to run some Windows-only software, and that your need won't depend much on whether that software runs fast or slow -- as long as it kinda, sorta runs, period.
One place you sure as hell can't expect much effort now is in how well VPC runs Linux. I won't be surprised if Linux support is dropped entirely.
Want to create multiple virtual PCs running Windows? Great! Just pay MS for each copy of Windows on each virtual PC, just as if each were a real, separately-purchased physical PC, and MS will gladly oblige.
Originally posted by Addison
What is VPC going to be like on a G5 with Panther. How is it with Panther any faster?
I just have a feeling that it may at last be a viable prospect.
My two cents.
I think VPC 6 is going to scream on G5's, in fact I will go so far and say that VPC 6 will run Windows apps almost at native speeds.
The downside, VPC 6 will not be sold to consumers. Rather, it will be a tool for developers. This tool will allow developers to take their Windows application (most likely developed using Microsoft development tools) and allow them to run on Mac OS X without the need to program specifically for Carbon, Cocoa, or Java.
Originally posted by Towel
I doubt they'll be so enlightened. My guess is they'll use the guts of VPC to keep from ever releasing another Mac-specific version of Office, and quietly kill VPC as an independent app. With their antitrust troubles behind them, probably until at least 2008, they have every interest in eliminating the Mac as a viable platform. It seems unlikely/impossible that you could run Palladium on virtual hardware anyway (that would kinda defeat the purpose of the security chip).
Anything that can be done in software can be done in hardware and vice versa. There is no reason why Palladium could not run on VPC unless MS didn't want to make it run on VPC.
VPC is a virtual machine. There is no way for the standard windows OS to know that it is being run in software on a PPC chip.
64 bit doesn't do anything for you unless you are trying to run 64 bit windows.
The faster bus is nice, but I don't think that VPC is bus bound so much as it is bound to converting little endian number sto big endian and vice versa.
If the G5 had PPC instructions for converting litttle endian to big endian, then there would be a significant speed increase.
Most of the slowness in VPC comes from translating x86 into PPC for execution.
Don't get me wrong- VPC is an amazing product, but it won't be ten times faster because you are running on a G5.
Originally posted by Yevgeny
Anything that can be done in software can be done in hardware and vice versa. There is no reason why Palladium could not run on VPC unless MS didn't want to make it run on VPC.
The point isn't that Palladium couldn't be emulated... of course it could. The point is that by emulating Palladium, you'd defeat its purpose. (I'm all for that, but MS wouldn't be!)
The "security" features (read plans for MS world dominance
[Edit: days late, I notice tons of typos. Must fix!]
Originally posted by shetline
The point isn't that Palladium couldn't be emulated... of course it could. The point is that by emulating Palladium, you'd defeat its purpose. (I'm all for that, by MS wouldn't be!)
The "security" features (read plans for MS world dominance
My bad, I misunderstood.
Originally posted by thebimbo
and, Paul, I wait anxiously and hope you 'found' that S/N... does VPC work???
well i have the sn... but no windows....
when I get XP corporate from my friend i'll comment more... but it looks like it is functional from my end... but I'm sure it could be updated.... this is on a Rev A Bondi iMac with 288 megs of ram....
If that happens, I could easily see it spanking VPC. It's a neat little program.
M$ could do great stuff with VPC. Or never update like they've been doing. HELLO my Ethernet doesn't fscking work!!!!