French jews and their enemies make peace

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Isn´t that just nice? French neo-nazis and radical jews have found eachother in a common cause. Its always good to see peace between people normally being enemies.



Love + joy
«1

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 37
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Hmm seem to have forgotten something...







    Nahh...







    not them either.



    Perhaps a link
  • Reply 2 of 37
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    I like the headline:

    French Neo-Nazis, Jews Unite in Web Hate



    Why is that not French, Jews Unite in Web Hate or French Neo-Nazis, Extremist Jews United in Webt Hate?



  • Reply 3 of 37
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Forgot about the bad bad jew hating media.



    Guess it renders the story unimportant then?
  • Reply 4 of 37
    For some reason, I didn't find anything on it on the MRAP's own website but couldn't find anything about it. I did fiund it covered by this article on Le Monde.

    Excerpt:

    Quote:

    Le Mouvement contre le racisme et pour l'amitié entre les peuples (MRAP) dénonce, dans un rapport établi Ã* l'issue d'une enquête menée pendant deux ans sur une nébuleuse de sites Internet anti-arabes, des "alliances entre l'extrême droite classique et des extrémistes se réclamant du judaïsme". Le rapport de 170 pages, que le MRAP devait présenter Ã* la presse mercredi 16 juillet, tend Ã* montrer que, derrière la nébuleuse de sites "Frema" (France en marche), se retrouvent des groupes d'extrême droite et des "extrémistes juifs".

    [Â?]

    Parmi les sites racistes mis en évidence, le rapport pointe sosracaille.org, ciblant musulmans et antiracistes (fermé en mars 2003), oumma.org, créé pour s'attaquer au portail musulman oumma.com, mrav.org, francarabia.org et deux sites "extrémistes juifs" : aipj.net et amisraelhai.org.



    I'm not in the mood for translating that for you.



    The existence of fringe racist elements among French Jews is nothing new, and the recent wave of violent attack perpetrated against Jews by Â?youths of immigrant originÂ? has made them more vocal. Since Jews are human beings just like you (even in France), you're bound to find the usual lot of brainless racist idiots among them.

    However, as described in the above article, the MRAP's seems to consider the amateurish sites such as somewhat representative of French Jews, and so does (Ã? surprise!) this thread's heading.



    Meanwhile, ouside the internet, in the real world (some of you might have heard of that concept), a league of far-right and far-left French personalities assembles under the aegis of the �Franco-Iraqi Friendship Association� for the liberation of Tariq �Aziz, while at the same time, also in the real world, French negationnists like Serge Thion and French Islamist politicans such as Mohammed Latrèche are the world's best chums. And one can observe the behaviour of such �progressist� organisations sich as the C.A.P.J.P.O. caught on video for attacking Jews in a Paris street as part of an anti-globalist �peaceful demonstration� a few months ago, the �comedian� Dieudonné �running for president� on an overtly antisemite/pro-Bin Laden platform. And then there was that best-selling book by that Meyssan character, explaining how no plane actually crashed on the Pentagone and how the planes hitting the WTC were �remote-controlled� (probably by the CIA and the Mossad, who are Nazis as everybody knows).

    And then there's usual oldies of Alois Brunner in Damsacus, the extensive use of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in various Â?anti-zionistÂ? publications, and so on and so forth.

    As for the Nazi/Islamist internet connection, you can find it in many places, a good start would be in Ahmed Rami's Swedish-based Â?Radio-IslamÂ?, which is not representative of Islam in general, but certainly of the Islamist fundamentalist ideology which finds many favours in among the West's far right as well as the far left.



    In the overall context, a the story about a few fringe racist Jewish sites from France getting hosted (in the U.S.A. I think) along fringe racist neo-nazi sites also from France, is quite unimportant.



    L'amitié entre les peuples, tu parles!
  • Reply 5 of 37
    zouniczounic Posts: 53member
    Frankly, who listen to those guys...?



    Serge Thion was fired from the CNRS (National Scientific Research Center) for his anti-jews internet-publications (That's why he is known; but no one knew that guy before that happened).



    Dieudonné was a funny guy until he left Elie.

    "Eli et Dieudonné" were a humorist couple. Elie Seimoun is Jew and Dieudonné M'Bala M'Bala is black. They spent several years together and had some succes. Now Elie is still doing one man shows and is also an actor. This guy is really funny ;-).

    Dieudonné has always been very ambiguous in his words. That was part of his humour. He actually ran for president a few years ago. But this is a (kind of) tradition in France for humorists: 'Coluche' was first.

    As for what he said about Ben-laden "I prefer Ben-Laden Charisma as Bush's", he was condemned by a court. Read a detailed story here.

    To be short : Dieudonné is anti-Bush, not anti-Jews.



    Thierry Meyssian was never taken seriously here and was totally debunked by medias, especially on Thierry Ardisson's popular TV show 'Tout le monde en parle' (France 2]. He is just a conspiracist compiling article found on american websites like Rense. People bought his book because he had a lot of coverage (against him), and read it like an 'x-file' summer book. We've never heard about him since that. He's certainly rich by now, but lost all credibility.



    Alois Brunner is an ex-(but still)-nazi. Born in Austria in 1912. There's always been suckers. This one is a big one.



    Don't blame France. Jews live in peace here and aren't beaten in the streets as some of you might think.



    Any French Jews here that could help ???
  • Reply 6 of 37
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    It still shocks me that you can be taken to court in France for free speech.
  • Reply 7 of 37
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    It still shocks me that you can be taken to court in France for free speech.



    That's because you're biased and not interested in an honest discussion.
  • Reply 8 of 37
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    Do you even know what I'm talking about?
  • Reply 9 of 37
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    Do you even know what I'm talking about?



    Maybe, maybe not. I am a little drunk, but I do remember a discussion in which Powerdoc undermined you're argument. If I'm wrong, sorry. But I think I was accurate.
  • Reply 10 of 37
    Quote:

    Originally posted by zounic

    As for what he said about Ben-laden "I prefer Ben-Laden Charisma as Bush's", he was condemned by a court. [?] To be short : Dieudonné is anti-Bush, not anti-Jews.



    He expressly stated: ?Mon programme : c'est l'antisémitisme, l'anti-blanc et le pro-Ben Laden?. That leaves little doubt.

    He otherwise has been quite overt about his opinions toward the Jews, made of recycled far-right as well as far-left propaganda from last century.

    As for his fascination with lunatic extremist charismatic leaders, that is also typical of certain 20th century trends.



    Quote:

    Thierry Meyssian was never taken seriously here and was totally debunked by medias.



    He has been described here as part of the extreme fringe, notably the success of the book he published, which is a rather worrying occurence.



    Aside from that, I did not claim all these negationnists and extermists are in any way representative of the French mainstream, but repsentative of the context of the long-time rapprochement between the far-right, the far-left, and the fundamentalists when it comes to antisemitic tendencies, a backdrop against which the story raised by Mr. Mouloud Aounit is indeed of little importance (to answer a question raised in this thread).



    Quote:

    Don't blame France.



    My previous post wasn't about ?blaming France? but about describing the wider context of the extreme fringes.



    Quote:

    Jews live in peace here and aren't beaten in the streets as some of you might think.



    While it doesn't happen often, when it does happen and caught on camera, the culprit ?peaceful organisation? (in this case the C.A.P.J.P.O.) gets off easily. While French Jews still live in ?peace? there it is an uneasy one, in which they know their complaints to the police will be followed by a non-lieu all too commonly, while they have to often face blame for the troubles in the Middle-East, whose desription in the French mass media is quite manichaean to say the least.
  • Reply 11 of 37
    zouniczounic Posts: 53member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    It still shocks me that you can be taken to court in France for free speech.



    Well, we make a difference here between free-speech and hate-speech.

    Hate-Speech is condemned here since WWII. European countries had to re-construct after the war and people did what they could so that no new Hitler came to power anywhere in Europe. Remember two years ago Mr jean-Marie le Pen was at the second turn of the presidential elections against Chirac. This guy has been condemned many times for Hate-Speech. So shits can still happen.



    In the case of Dieudonné, he said that just a few months after the 9/11 events. That's also why he was fastly condemned.
  • Reply 12 of 37
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    There is also french assholes in France. There is nothing new. Extremist weither they belong to any tendancies, tend to agree when they find a common ennemie.



    As Immanuel stated, there is no reason that even french jews have not stupid brainless people, like any other nationality or any other human groups.



    As my grandfather like to stated, there is always the same numbers of morons (cons) in any human groups, and there is no way to filtrate them. .



    This article just shows that extremists of all kinds share some common values, and this value are not tolerance.
  • Reply 13 of 37
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    Do you even know what I'm talking about?



    Does he ever?
  • Reply 14 of 37
    jonathanjonathan Posts: 312member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    Does he ever?



    tone it down.
  • Reply 15 of 37
    giantgiant Posts: 6,041member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    I like the headline:

    French Neo-Nazis, Jews Unite in Web Hate



    Why is that not French, Jews Unite in Web Hate or French Neo-Nazis, Extremist Jews United in Webt Hate?




    Wait. Which is it? Is the media controlled by Jews or is the media against Jews? I'm confused.
  • Reply 16 of 37
    zouniczounic Posts: 53member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein

    He expressly stated: ?Mon programme : c'est l'antisémitisme, l'anti-blanc et le pro-Ben Laden?. That leaves little doubt.

    He otherwise has been quite overt about his opinions toward the Jews...




    I'm not an expert (nor a big fan) about Dieudonné, but I'd be interested in where did you found such a schocking quote. This should have had made him big troubles. Remember his partner (Elie) was Jew. They worked together a good 10 years and built their success together. I really don't think this guy is anti-Jews. I think he's excessive in his statements, anti-'globalization', anti-G.Bush, anti-everythings.

    Quote:

    He has been described here...



    Here ? Were do you live ? ;-) Europe, America, definitely not Ocenania Eurasia or Eastasia ? Somewhere else ?

    Quote:

    (Thierry Meyssian) He has been described here as part of the extreme fringe, notably the success of the book he published, which is a rather worrying occurence...



    This guy is just an oportunist, nothing more. If he's convinced by what he's saying then he's 'only' a kind of conspiracist. If he's associated to some extreme-right movement then he's just an ass-hole. In every cases, he made money, had his little success, but didn't convinced anybody. My take is that he's an oportunist, tinted with a bit of a conspiracy theorism.
    Quote:

    ...While French Jews still live in ?peace? there it is an uneasy one, in which they know their complaints to the police will be followed by a non-lieu all too commonly, while they have to often face blame for the troubles in the Middle-East, whose desription in the French mass media is quite manichaean to say the least.



    Fine. Jews are very present in French 'Mass' medias. From the lower ? a simple journalist ? to the highest levels ? the 'Chief' ! ? (Find by yourself if you dare over the websites of the main French medias: Press -> Liberation (left), Le Figaro (right), Le monde (Middle?). TV -> TF1 and LCI, France television (France2, France3, France5, Arte), Canal+ and iTele, and also smaller channels like Paris Premiere.)

    The position of French 'mass' medias is usually this:

    - Israel has to be protected, helped. For some historical reasons and because Its neighbours are mostly hostiles.

    - Occupied territories are what they are : Occupied territories.

    - A suicide bomber (a terrorist) self-blasting himself on a market or a bus, killing innocent people is unacceptable.

    - Tsahal invading and thus (even by mistake) killing innocent people in a village where live 2 or 3 real terrorists is also unnaceptable.

    - Especially because it's in an 'occupied territory'.

    - Once again: 'occupied territory' means that some people could be unhappy with your presence.



    Now if you're a journalist, you choose who you support. Who's the agressor, who's the victim ? Both are. Both sides are covered (in the 'mass' medias).
  • Reply 17 of 37
    bananabanana Posts: 61member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    It still shocks me that you can be taken to court in France for free speech.



    It shouldn't. France, like Germany, Spain and Italy are essentially socialist countries. Political correctness rules amongst the righteous to the exclusion of dissent.

    People in Europe often deride the US for similar, but I'd still rather wear an anti-war T-shirt in NY than the middle of Paris. In Paris it might be popular, but wouldn't make any sense; anything anti-US is de rigeur.
  • Reply 18 of 37
    bananabanana Posts: 61member
    PS Check out this man; www.wernercohn.com

    Interesting perspective on Noam Chomsky.



    Sorry, false link. Now corrected.
  • Reply 19 of 37
    Quote:

    Originally posted by zounic

    Quote:

    Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein

    He (Dieudonné) expressly stated: ?Mon programme : c'est l'antisémitisme, l'anti-blanc et le pro-Ben Laden?. That leaves little doubt.



    I'm not an expert (nor a big fan) about Dieudonné, but I'd be interested in where did you found such a schocking quote.



    February the 18th 2003, Dieudonné was guest of honour at the Berryer conference, a monthly eloquence contest held at the Palais de Justice of Paris, that's when and where he made that declaration.



    Quote:

    This should have had made him big troubles.



    Some twenty years ago perhaps, not anymore it seems.



    Quote:

    Remember his partner (Elie) was Jew. They worked together a good 10 years and built their success together. I really don't think this guy is anti-Jews.



    Richard Wagner had also worked with Jews for years, notably the conductor to many of his operas, Hermann Levi. But that's irrelevent when examining Wagner's views as expressed in writings such as Das Judenthum in der Musik.



    Quote:

    Quote:

    He (Meyssan) has been described here as part of the extreme fringe?



    Here ?



    I have described him thus here, in this thread that is.



    Quote:

    This guy is just an oportunist, nothing more. If he's convinced by what he's saying then he's 'only' a kind of conspiracist. If he's associated to some extreme-right movement then he's just an ass-hole. In every cases, he made money, had his little success, but didn't convinced anybody. My take is that he's an oportunist, tinted with a bit of a conspiracy theorism.



    That has been mostly agreed, excepts that the sucess of his book suggests it has convinced a little more than ?nobody?. I have described him as part of the larger background of the fringe activities and of their impact, to put the story of this thread's heading in the proper context.



    Quote:

    Quote:

    ...While French Jews still live in ?peace? there it is an uneasy one, in which they know their complaints to the police will be followed by a non-lieu all too commonly, while they have to often face blame for the troubles in the Middle-East, whose desription in the French mass media is quite manichaean to say the least.



    Fine. Jews are very present in French 'Mass' medias. From the lower ? a simple journalist ? to the highest levels ? the 'Chief' !



    The presence of Jews in the French media has no real bearing on the outlook presented by said media. They certainly don't reflect the Jewish community's concerns.

    However, the French étatique traditions, as well as the weight the A.F.P. (which tends to reflect the official line) has on how news is reported by mainstream outlets (as an aside, it seems the U.S.A. is becoming more like France when it comes to align oneself on the Raison d?État), has a definitely greater influence than the relative high proportion of Jews in the media (which stems from a millenial tradition of literacy).



    Quote:

    Now if you're a journalist, you choose who you support. Who's the agressor, who's the victim ? Both are. Both sides are covered (in the 'mass' medias).



    Since the collapse of the peace talks and the eruption of the campaign of violence, several respected French media outlets, such as Le Monde, Le Nouvel Observateur, Libération, and of course, the A.F.P., have been caught reporting distorted or simply false news. Such as the story according to which Israeli soldiers were supposedly raping Palestinian women so their families ?honour kill? them later; a falsehood which was published in the Nouvel Obs by Sara Daniel, daughter of Jean Daniel (as said earlier, father and daughter's Jewish connection is of little bearing here).

    As for the news on TV, the famous case of the tragic death of a child killed in a crossfire between Israeli military and Palestinian militamen, reported as ?murederd by Israelis? and shown over and over again as if this was the bloody My Lai massacre, is a typical example of the coverage I called ?manichaean?: giving a simplistic nuance-less presepctive according to which one side is a collective ?innocent victim? and the other, a collective ?ruthless assassin?. Not to mention the general trend of victimolâtrie so prevalent in such trends as anti-globalism and tercermundismo, fairly popular in France.



    Again, I'm neither ?blaming France? nor painting life for Jews there as ?hell?, however it has definitely deteriorated in recent years. French Jews, most of whom are left-leaning and very attached to the values the République, feel under threat.
  • Reply 20 of 37
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by banana

    It shouldn't. France, like Germany, Spain and Italy are essentially socialist countries. Political correctness rules amongst the righteous to the exclusion of dissent.

    People in Europe often deride the US for similar, but I'd still rather wear an anti-war T-shirt in NY than the middle of Paris. In Paris it might be popular, but wouldn't make any sense; anything anti-US is de rigeur.




    You exagerate here, France oscillate between socialist liberal, to moderate right. Spain, italy and France have a governement belonging to the right.



    In a semantic point of vue, socialist countries refer, to ancient east block countries, like east germany, polland ...aka the commies.



    If anything anti-US is certainly de rigueur in some part of the left or the extreme right in France, is certainly not a universal value.
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