Cube 2
Here's a question I have for you all. Many people in various threads are asking for a mini-tower with some expandibility. So here's the question for you all. Say that you got to talk to Apple engineers to help design the new Cube remembering of course that components have gotten smaller these days through miniturization. What would you include? What would you leave out? What options would you look for? Is there a graphics card on the planet that could possibly make everyone happy? What ports would you want to see built in? Oh and by the way, you can't change the original dimensions. There are some very informed and creative people in these forums. I'd love to see just what you'd want in regard to features. Enjoy dreaming of a system that may never come about. But it sure would be cool if it did. 
Comments
Make the cube not a cube and grow it taller.
1 G4 CPU (backside cacheless 1 GHz?)
1 AGP 4x slot (32 MB something)
1 PCI slot
2 USB ports
2 Firewire ports
1 RAM slot (support for 0.5/1 GB)
1 hard drive bay
1 optical drive bay
<1000 USD
If anything, I'd say turn the Cube on its side so it's more like a really short tower. Optical drive on front, ports on the back, to avoid the rat's nest of cables that you have to reach underneath to access. There are plenty of PC makers who have started making barebones cube systems that only require a CPU, HD, RAM and optical drive. For about $200-$300, you get a small case with an external 5.25" bay, an external 3.5" bay, one internal HD bay, a PCI slot, an AGP slot, and most ports built in (all have legacy ports, USB and Ethernet, some also have Firewire). Since they're intended for LAN parties, some companies also bundle them with short, non-extended keyboards. Apple could easily make something like this and make it look as good as the best ones currently out there. It would appeal to college students especially - I am a college student, and since I visit home every couple weeks, I have a laptop. But a small system like that would be almost as good for mobility, as long as you don't need to use the computer while in between locations.
Use a PPC daughtercard with cached G4's but also make ONE PPC970 based model about the same as the low end tower but cheaper and smaller.
Expansion would be an option of the following:
Use 1AGP and 1PCI.
Use 2 PCI express
Use 1 AGP/PCI-Express and 2 independent FW1600 (or better) buses.
also:
1 optical bay and 2 HDD bays so that a second internal HDD can be easily added.
airport and bluetooth naturally.
One cool thing to do would be to include a NEWCARD slot, (these should start replacing PC-card next year) and they support the PCI-express standard. This would effectively immunize the mac against new I/O developments while taking up very little space. NEWCARD, because of PCI express, supports plenty of bandwidth.
Also, RAM should use at least 2 DESKTOP sized DIMMS, but 3-4 would be better.
Whatever is done, the minimums are as follows.
1 replacable PPC card
1 replacable GPU card (of whatever current standard, AGP or PCI-Express)
and either 2 independent FAST firewire buses (1600+) or 1 bus plus one other expansion card/NEWCARD.
Prices should span the same range as the current eMac-iMac with cacheless G4 at the bottom, a cached G4 in the middle and a 970 at the top.
<strong>Well,
Make the cube not a cube and grow it taller.
Kinda like a Blade server, eh?
<strong>1 G4 CPU (backside cacheless 1 GHz?)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good suggestions... but Apple's tried this whole "no backside cache" thing before, and the results have been a disaster every time. Look at the PowerBook 1400/117, or the PowerBook 5300, or the PowerBook G3 Series 233... all had no L2 cache, and all had incredibly sucky performance. The "twice as fast" G3 did just slightly better than the PowerBook 3400/240 despite having the then-kickass G3 processor in it. The 1400/117 was a good third slower than the 133 MHz version despite having an only slightly slower clock speed. The PowerBook 5300 was pretty horrible all around but many say it was slower than some of the faster 68040 machines like the Quadra 840av.
Unless you mean no L3 cache... in which case, performance would get worse but it would still be acceptible. At least for a low price, that is.
<strong>
Unless you mean no L3 cache... in which case, performance would get worse but it would still be acceptible. At least for a low price, that is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
L3 cache is AKA "backside" cache, because it's not on the "frontside" bus to main RAM. L1 and L2 are on the CPU die, so they're kind of hard to get rid of.
As to the Cube: I'm really not sure if there's a place for it yet. I used to think it could coexist beside the PowerMac - differentiated principally by the number of processors, and of course by internal expansion - but now I'm not so sure. If Apple gets FireWire up to 3200Mbps, I can actually see them adopting the modular Mac idea that some people here (including me) have been kicking around for a while now, and which Think Secret hinted at with "Thing" (the Cube) and "Thing 2" (an expansion chassis).
So you buy a PowerMac that's basically a blade with desktop components and a 7" AGP slot (video cards aren't necessarily getting bigger, it's just that nVIDIA recently decided to one-up the old Voodoo5 - I don't expect ATi to follow), and 970s - these are PowerMacs, after all. If that's all you need, that's all you buy. If you need PCI, you buy the chassis and plug it in. The cable lengths allowed by FW2 give you the option of isolating the necessarily loud PCI chassis from the quiet purr of your workstation.
This would more than satisfy the needs of a great part of Apple's customer base, who do not need absolute top-end power or the fastest possible video card, but who do need a pro workstation and their choice of monitor.
You might even be able to expand processing power by hooking PowerMacs together over FireWire - or Gb Ethernet, or AirPort Extreme, or whatever tickles your fancy. Rendezvous and kernel-level clustering would make for a potent combination.
Apple could then offer a no-holds-barred workstation starting at a higher price point with more CPUs, the ability to swallow gobs of RAM, etc. It might or might not come as a conventional tower - something tells me it won't, actually.
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
Kinda like a Blade server, eh?
Yeah.
[quote]Originally posted by THT:
<strong>Well,
Make the cube not a cube and grow it taller.
1 G4 CPU (backside cacheless 1 GHz?)
1 AGP 4x slot (32 MB something)
1 PCI slot
2 USB ports
2 Firewire ports
1 RAM slot (support for 0.5/1 GB)
1 hard drive bay
1 optical drive bay
<1000 USD</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think an aluminum PowerBook-styled Cube format would be attractive, although they'd have to figure out what kind of a stand it would use as transparent plastic wouldn't work and having it sit directly on the desk probably wouldn't be stylish enough (not to mention harder to get the convection cooling to work). Perhaps a square plate with the ports on it, with a vertical support holding up the cube portion? This would allow airflow through the bottom.
I'd expect it to use the existing DDR chipset with either DDR266 or DDR333 memory. If the 7457 arrives soon enough it would be a perfect fit and will perform better without the expensive L3 than the 7455 does due to the doubling of the L2 cache. Clock rate should be over 1 GHz in that case (1.4-1.6?). The GPU will need to run cool, but I think the new versions of the ATI9000 will fit the bill quite nicely. Most cards these days can easily support dual monitor setups which would make the machine considerably more attractive to the prosumer market. No slots (except maybe the GPU on an AGP card and an optional AirPort Extreme card). I wasn't a fan of the vertically oriented DVD drive, but the form factor I suggest would let them do that or a side mounted unit.
Cost? They could probably make it quite reasonable -- sub-eMac levels, anyhow.
This fall, perhaps?
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: BJNY ]</p>
Make the cube not a cube and grow it taller. Keep the square base, but have it a few inches taller. Have the internals pulled out from the back instead of the front. Have the optical drive horizontal instead of vertical. Include the following:
1 G4 CPU (backside cacheless 1 GHz?)
1 AGP 4x slot (32 MB something)
1 PCI slot
2 USB ports
2 Firewire ports
1 RAM slot (support for 0.5/1 GB)
1 hard drive bay
1 optical drive bay
<1000 USD
The Cube can't come back at the same dimensions. Although a computer as powerful as the original Cube can now be put in a smaller space, one with enough power for today's market would take up just as much room. And graphics cards are getting bigger and bigger, so it would have to be at least large enough to fit any modern graphics card. Also, it needs an internal power supply.
If anything, I'd say turn the Cube on its side so it's more like a really short tower. Optical drive on front, ports on the back, to avoid the rat's nest of cables that you have to reach underneath to access. There are plenty of PC makers who have started making barebones cube systems that only require a CPU, HD, RAM and optical drive. For about $200-$300, you get a small case with an external 5.25" bay, an external 3.5" bay, one internal HD bay, a PCI slot, an AGP slot, and most ports built in (all have legacy ports, USB and Ethernet, some also have Firewire). Since they're intended for LAN parties, some companies also bundle them with short, non-extended keyboards. Apple could easily make something like this and make it look as good as the best ones currently out there. It would appeal to college students especially - I am a college student, and since I visit home every couple weeks, I have a laptop. But a small system like that would be almost as good for mobility, as long as you don't need to use the computer while in between locations.
<hr></blockquote>
Excellent. (Mr. Burns voice.)
Great posts. Apple, despite their brilliance...are often hamfisted and flawed in the implementation. Maybe the Cube was ahead of its time...and wasn't helped by delusional ideas of pricing and half thought out design. Too airy fairy and not enough trademark Apple simplicity. (So, Steve Jobs, why are components not mounted vertically? As he explained in one keynote regarding the design for the imac2. So was he on holiday for the Cube's design?)
Unlike, Amorph, I feel there is a very clear hole where, not one, but TWO Cubes could fit.
One inbetween the 'power'Mac and the iMac2. And another below the eMac.
Unlike Steve Jobs, I have a clearer view of why the Cube 'failed'. Not because there was 'no' prosumer market. They priced it virtually parallel to the 'power'Mac range...and all it offered over a 'power'Mac was 'cool'. Suicide. (Especially with the 'mandatory' LCD aesthetic.) I don't think it was because there was no mandate for a product inbetween the iMac and 'power'Mac. Pricey and limited.
'Mini-Me' 'power'Mac Cube tower. As outlined by the great posts above from THT etc. Bigger all round and it would still be compact but take industry standard components. Bigger and cheaper. Apple are helped by the fact that LCD prices are much cheaper than when the Cube first hit.
Amorph seems to hint at product overlap with his doubts over the 'Cube 2'. I understand where he's coming from. However, look at Apple's 'consumer' desktops. The iMac2 and eMac. That's two all-in-ones. Why can't we have two models of 'professional' desktops..?
Give the new Apple credit. Unlike the Ghosts of Performas past, each product in Apple's grid at least has some mandate which is not fulfilled by another. Especially apparent in the laptop line which is beautifully streamed from entry level iBook to midrange laptop 12 Powerbook to the Lapzilla 17 inch Powerbook.
Secondly, Amorph has previously brought up the point of the '970' allowing Apple to differentiate their desktop line. Let's face it. The pathetic state of the G4 at the time of the Cube launch didn't help. Apple had 400-500 mhz to share out between the 'power'Mac and the Cube.
The whole DVD or CDRW thing didn't help Apple or the Cube...or a crappy Geforce 2mx on a machine costing 2gs. Reminiscent of the 'power'Mac or iMac2 Geforce 4mx and Radeon 9000 (it's not as powerful as an Ati 8500?) Either way. You need more power in yer top of line stuff. The Geforce 4 Ti costs nothing for a top end model. So include one.
Apple have room to 970 a bigger Cube 2.
Put duals in the 'POWER'Mac.
Sales fly.
As regard a 'Cube 3'..? A 'Dell-Buster'.
Look at the 'Cube' style products on the PC side, some with great carry handles. And for insanely cheap prices! (I'm just amazed the Cube is still 'on ice'.)
Apple could rock with a sub-eMac headless Mac. Cheap white enamel box with carry handle. Watch 'Switcher' sales volume and edu' sales rise.
To me, Apple's desktop problems do largely stem from the CPU situation...and probably contributed partially to the original Cube's demise (along with yadda, yadda, yadda...etc.)
Apple have holes in their desktop line.
Mini-tower.
Headless Mac.
They have the retail stores.
They have the OS.
They can be aggressive on prices and still make a profit (LCD price drops, WOW!)
They have the killer design.
The Laptop line proves they have the political will to do it.
So. Why does the laptop line have it...
...and the desktop not?
Diversity.
Value.
Lemon Bon Bon
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
The only thing Apple really needs..
Anyways i showed a sketch of a cube once here. Go here: <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mac/outsider/home.html"; target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/mac/outsider/home.html</a>; and scroll down.
A shuttle form factor is the way to go.
But you know they aren't cheap.
I've configured one like this on a online shop here in Belgium.
Shuttle nForce 2 / Samsung 256 MB RAM PC2700 / Combo Drive Samsung SM348/ ATI Radeon 9000 128MB/ Athlon XP2400+ / Seagate IV 80 GB
Its 893 euro without taxes.
Well finally if Apple come with something like that with a 106 euro extra price for the design I will go for it.
For 999 euro, it will have :
a G4 1 GHZ
One AGP (upgradable for full size card)
One PCI
One Optical (upgradable like the new tower) & One HD Drive
FireWire , USB, Ethernet 100, Modem, Bluetooth
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: jeromba ]</p>
<strong>I think the day of the low-cost headless iMac (Cube2, headless tower, or whatever you want to call it) is coming soon. The thing that will make it possible is the PPC970. When the PowerMac moves up to a processor that is clearly superior Apple will be able to build a cheap product that overlaps the PowerMac's feature set.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Perhaps. I don't see them going with pure convection cooling, though, because that's how they ended up with the vertical optical drive and the ports on the bottom - and, thus, the plastic skirt. They've since gotten much better at finding other ways to get a machine to be compact and silent.
The aluminum enclosure is a sleek idea: Ports and ventilation along the back, slot for the slot-load SuperDrive machined into the front. The only other (obvious) adornment would be an Apple logo farther down that doubled as the power/sleep LED. Raise it up with four feet just far enough to allow a quiet fan to take in air through the bottom. Put a couple of tastefully recessed latches on the sides: When pressed in, the shell (i.e., every part of the case except for the bottom) slides up and off to reveal the innards. Inside, the machine is laid out like a miniature rack, so that each piece (drives, board, AGP slot if there is one, power supply) can be slid out of the case for ease of access, and latched firmly into place afterward.
Slide the cover back over the machine, press down firmly, and the latches on the sides click shut. Done.
Heck, I should send Jon Ives my resume. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
As far as the tech, let's go with a 7457 for the sake of argument.
If we put a 970 in it, then maybe we'll see a 7" AGP slot too. Then the Cube heads more into modular PowerMac replacement territory.
One outstanding engineering issue: The Cube had its infamous power brick, and it's been noted that subsequent designs like the iMac have an internal power supply. This is possible partly because the iMac's PS only needs to supply enough power for the LCD at the end of its arm. The Cube had to supply all 130 watts called for in the ADC spec in addition to whatever the machine itself required. If this machine is going to be supporting 23" Cinema HD displays - or worse, the high-density LCDs Apple's currently funding development for - it's going to need ADC, and a much beefier power supply than the iMac has. So, do you go with the external brick, or do you significantly increase the size, weight, and cooling requirements of the Cube? Granted, the aluminum case will function as a giant heat sink, but people might not be happy to have their machines dissipating heat directly onto their desks.
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
i have two cubes. they are silent.
i will keep these machines until there is another perfectly silent, fanless, machine made by apple.
i would rather give up speed than suffer the noise.
reserve the power mac tower for people who have mission critical speed needs.
for the rest of us, give us our silence.
oh, and keep the retail price high enough, so that everyone who doesnt buy one this time around will kick themselves again for not buying it.
seriously. keep the price high. and make another great machine like the first one.
thnx
Now, however, both AGP 8x and (obviously) PCI-X allow for more than one slot for a graphics card. I'm wondering if Apple couldn't ship a machine with decent onboard graphics (whatever's in the PowerBook, say) on one bus, and leave a slot open for dual (or triple!) monitor support, or just to "replace" the onboard video with something newer.
The onboard chip would reduce costs and price, and make it easier for Apple to make the standard configuration silent or nearly so. Then, as with the original Cube, it would then be up to the user to decide whether they wanted a loud, fast card for maximum graphics performance, or a second card whose main purpose was to drive one or two more monitors (so that it ran cool).
Hmmm.
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>