U.S. Diplomatic Convoy Bombed....in Gaza Strip
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/350191.html
Will this change our approach? I don't imagine the President liking this too much. Could it be a ploy to draw us unto the area militarily? A mistake?
How should we respond? This would seem to mark a turning point, especially if Palestinian terror groups are now targeting Americans, something they have previously said was not going to happen.
thoughts....
Will this change our approach? I don't imagine the President liking this too much. Could it be a ploy to draw us unto the area militarily? A mistake?
How should we respond? This would seem to mark a turning point, especially if Palestinian terror groups are now targeting Americans, something they have previously said was not going to happen.
thoughts....
Comments
Originally posted by SDW2001
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/350191.html
Will this change our approach? I don't imagine the President liking this too much. Could it be a ploy to draw us unto the area militarily? A mistake?
How should we respond? This would seem to mark a turning point, especially if Palestinian terror groups are now targeting Americans, something they have previously said was not going to happen.
thoughts....
US should just change its name to Israel. Its clear that the Jewish minority is in charge of our middle east policy.
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
US should just change its name to Israel. Its clear that the Jewish minority is in charge of our middle east policy.
Heres the latest study:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=3...n_and_al_Qaida
Going in and mercilessly pummeling Iraq just lead people to flee and join Al Qaida. I'm shocked. Who would of guessed, Jesus was right again when he said, "Those who live by the sword die by the sword." It seems our government is bound and determined to prove this theory on an international level.
Originally posted by segovius
Funny about the JC quote - seems like the ones driving the bloodshed are the so-called "Christian Zionists" (??????)
Yeah, I'm serious about the quote. The "Christian Zionists" are clueless.
Edit: Thanks for the article... Thats all we need is a bunch of rednecks taking time out from reading Revelation to add fuel to the fire of hatred.
Edit: this convoy seems to have included CIA operatives which imo makes a legitimate target. The Palestinians are at war with israel and if the US sticks its nose in to support Israel it's gonna take some hits.
Amazing. Absolutely amazing.
The Palestinians are not at war with Israel. They do not have a uniformed army. They kill innocent women and children. Acts of violence in Israel are not acts of war...they are acts of terrorism.
As for CIA operatives: A legitimate target? They are in NO WAY legitmate targets. The Palestinains have no legitmate targets. Israel has withdrawn time and time again and they are still hit even during ceasefires. The last time they were bombed during the ceasefire, they retaliated. Then, Hamas comes out and says "The ceasefire is over". Well no FVUKING SHIT....HAMAS ENDED IT!!!!
I should have know the reaction I'd get. The U.S. has shown incredible tolerance in dealing with the Palestinian issue...and now somehow we are a target. It is also unbelievably ridiculous to compare Palestinian homicide bombers who kill (delibrately) civilians to make a polical point. It's terrorism.
Don't get me wrong. I think Israel's approach sucks too. They should withraw completely and ban new settlements. Then, if they are attacked
they can truly say they have done all they can do. The in again, out again approach certainly doesn't work.
Legitmate targets...
Originally posted by SDW2001
segovious:
Amazing. Absolutely amazing.
The Palestinians are not at war with Israel. They do not have a uniformed army. They kill innocent women and children. Acts of violence in Israel are not acts of war...they are acts of terrorism.
As for CIA operatives: A legitimate target? They are in NO WAY legitmate targets. The Palestinains have no legitmate targets. Israel has withdrawn time and time again and they are still hit even during ceasefires. The last time they were bombed during the ceasefire, they retaliated. Then, Hamas comes out and says "The ceasefire is over". Well no FVUKING SHIT....HAMAS ENDED IT!!!!
I should have know the reaction I'd get. The U.S. has shown incredible tolerance in dealing with the Palestinian issue...and now somehow we are a target. It is also unbelievably ridiculous to compare Palestinian homicide bombers who kill (delibrately) civilians to make a polical point. It's terrorism.
Don't get me wrong. I think Israel's approach sucks too. They should withraw completely and ban new settlements. Then, if they are attacked
they can truly say they have done all they can do. The in again, out again approach certainly doesn't work.
Legitmate targets...
In all fairness, its a lose-lose for everybody no matter what anybody does. Its a bottomless pit of anger and hatred. The US is the only nation thats dumb enough to throw themselves in the middle of it time and time again.
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
[B]Heres the latest study:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=3...n_and_al_Qaida
The 'war against terror' looks like its a 'war-to-strengthen-terrorist-groups'. Oh what a surprise this is. Having participated in some anti-war marches before Iraq was attacked one of the many slogans expressed was "War in Iraq = support for Al Qaida", and similar. (Bush dismissed the protesters as an irrelevant focus group...perhaps he should at least have listened).
The guerrilla war in Iraq has just got under way in the last few months, and will generate more unrest rather than peace and prosperity...not just in Iraq and the middle east, but anywhere where we go poking hornets' nests into action. More unrest in the world means more orders for the US war industry, now one of the largest sectors of the economy. Everyone knows about how Eisenhower warned against the proliferation of the "military-industrial-complex"...it looks as if he was right too, and who paid any heed or attention? It's now a vicious circle..we *need* conflict because the economy is so reliant on it. Perhaps 9-11, and future possible large-scale terrorist incidents in the US is viewed as "collateral damage" from the pursuit of what is seen as necessary, but antagonistic foreign policies. Of course this is an over-simplification, but I don't have the time to type for hours.
Business as usual, carry on.
You want the Palistinians to be successful in killing Americans . . . you hate any member of the CIA because you are a knee-jerk reactionary . . . the CIA is automatically 'the Man' and is therefor always up to no-good.
THere is some truth to the Conservative statement that 'Liberals' want the US to fail simply so that it will make the administration look bad . . . . at least in many cases of the extremely ideaological kind.
There is nothing legitimate about the way that the Palistinians are cunducting this so called 'war'
They are targetting civilians and then they are promoting that gangs of children should gather in front of armed troops and throw rocks at them . .
Hamas blows up 20 civilians during a cease-fire and then blame the Israelis for breaking the cease-fire
doesn't that tell you even the slightest thing about the people that you think are only fighting for 'justice'?!?!?!
Now, with all that said teh US needs to set up a definite stand on Israeli expansion: NO MORE settlements for ultra-right-wing messianic wacko racist Israelis!!!!!
and even demand the dismantling of many that exist
this MUST happen for peace to take place!!
then we need to propose that we will take the existing Palisttinian territories and make it a Palistinian state AND will develope there, an infrastructure worth envying: we must fund the development of the foundation for a future succesful and advanced Palistinian civilization: they must be funded, roads made, houses constructed, infrastructure ect ect . . . they shouldn't be forced to live in squalor if they are being forced to live outside of the lands which their grandparents called home.
Originally posted by segovius
Israeli is killing kids - Palestinians are killing Israelis. Like I always say, depends whose side you're on. Don't try to take the moral high ground - at least do what the Israelis do and say 'yeah we killed Palestinians - so what ?'. This I can respect, let's you know who and what you're dealing with but spare us the sanctimonious BS. It's a war. People are killing each other.
You are right, it is a war. But your first line there should read "Israel targets militants, kids have been killed. Palestinians are targeting israeli women and children and other civilians and very few actual military targets.
Originally posted by segovius
Seriously for a minute - I have no perticular axe to grind against the US but if they continue to unevenly and unconditionally support Israel then US operatives on the ground are legitimate targets by definition.
At least have the balls to admit you have an axe to grind against the US.
Originally posted by segovius
Turn it round - if another country not yet involved in Iraq (say) sends in operatives that are 100% behind al Qaeda (say) both you and I know they would be legitimate targets.
So, if Iran sends in a diplomatic team to Israel, with their own security detail, they automatically become legit targets? I'd disagree, but keep that in mind before you condemn Israel for bombing an empty former training base in Syria.
Originally posted by segovius
The US needs to start leading the world in some justice - that's the only thing that can save her now. Two weeks ago Israel bombed civilians outside Damascus. Bush supported it. Any other country sent bombers to another country and killed civilians and it would be an act of war. That's hypocrisy and that's also the cause of terrorism because if people can't look to America for justice where can they look ? They should look to America and they should get justice from America - they don't, so they take the law into their own hands. You'd do the same. Except in this case you call them terrorists - but because you're on the other side. No tother reason.
Your BS is never ending. Israel hit the camp in Syria in response to a suicide bombing that targeted and killed 20 civilians...babies and women included. You rule that US operatives in Gaza, acting as a security detail are legit targets because the US supports Israel, but Syria supporting terrorist groups involved in the war against Israel is not legit. Sorry, but an attack against a terrorist trianing camp, empty or not, is a far more lgit target than US operatives acting as a security force.
Originally posted by segovius
Fair enough - but just tell it like it is.
Exactly..without twisting and omitting all the details you normally do.
The only way there's going to be any chance of peace in the region is when the US can display some semblance of fairness, instead of being being perpetually on its knees for Sharon. Terrorism goes both ways in the Israel-Palestine war. Nobody can deny that suicide bombings are terror acts...but Israel does whatever it wants, including numerous acts of terrorism on Palestinians, with complete impunity, Israel have also flouted dozens of UN resolutions in recent decades and get rewarded with $15 billion annually in hard cash and benefits from we the taxpayers. They aren't even a democracy, (unless you're Jewish), and have a leader who has both authorized, and taken part in massacres and terrorism since the 1950s....and *how* many times has he visited the Bush Ranch? An example in the *war against terror*.!! , um,
When the likes of unelected officials such as Wolfowitz, Feith, Abrams etc wield a disproportionate amount of power in DC, then its a guarantee that problems will be exacerbated rather than solved. Many of the movers and shakers in the PNAC and AIPAC lobbies are hardline likudniks and their paranoia of Palestinians (and hatred for muslims in general) is on open display. Just like Hamas, the last thing they want is peace....for with peace, they have nowhere to hang their hats.
Originally posted by sammi jo
If you admit to being pro-Palestine, you get lumped as a terrorist sympathizer.... the words "Palestine" and "terrorist" are synonymous, aren't they? If you admit to being anti-Israeli (subtle difference), then you're anti-semitic...that's so politically incorrect people just don't go there. (Naturally the Israelis are well aware and use the holocaust as a very effective lever for emotional blackmail).
The only way there's going to be any chance of peace in the region is when the US can display some semblance of fairness, instead of being being perpetually on its knees for Sharon. Terrorism goes both ways in the Israel-Palestine war. Nobody can deny that suicide bombings are terror acts...but Israel does whatever it wants, including numerous acts of terrorism on Palestinians, with complete impunity, Israel have also flouted dozens of UN resolutions in recent decades and get rewarded with $15 billion annually in hard cash and benefits from we the taxpayers. They aren't even a democracy, (unless you're Jewish), and have a leader who has both authorized, and taken part in massacres and terrorism since the 1950s....and *how* many times has he visited the Bush Ranch? An example in the *war against terror*.!! , um,
When the likes of unelected officials such as Wolfowitz, Feith, Abrams etc wield a disproportionate amount of power in DC, then its a guarantee that problems will be exacerbated rather than solved. Many of the movers and shakers in the PNAC and AIPAC lobbies are hardline likudniks and their paranoia of Palestinians (and hatred for muslims in general) is on open display. Just like Hamas, the last thing they want is peace....for with peace, they have nowhere to hang their hats.
Fair enough
Clearly what is needed is some back-bone and imagination
and
The stop of killing inocents . . . or killing at all
This is NOT actually doing anything
In most ideas about 'war' at least there is some gain and loss . . . here it is senseless tit-for-tat and nobody is getting any wiser . . . contrary to pro-palistinian beliefs, the bombing of cafes is NOT 'getting the word out'
There has to be other ways . . . and America should step up to the plate and make some other form of concessions than merely giving Israel money . . .
my idea= construction and support for a Palistinian state and an absolute ban on expansion and new settlements including the repeal of many of the flagrant racist messianin crazy militant settlements that have poped up in the last decade or so . . . .
I think that it is possible to be pro-both, but, that might mean not loving to hate an enemy
Originally posted by SDW2001
As for CIA operatives: A legitimate target? They are in NO WAY legitmate targets.
There is a question of what, exactly, the intelligence operatives ? if they were intelligence operatives ? were doing in that place. There is also a question of whether intelligence operatives constitute a legitimate military target. I believe that in a declared warfare situation, intelligence operatives in enemy territory are considered legitimate targets ? indeed, if memory serves me, they receive even less protection than military personnel: if they are operating covertly they are not covered by the Geneva Convention.
Of course, if they were, instead, accredited diplomatic personnel, they would be completely protected, even in case of warfare and this would be true even if they were acting as spies under the cover of they diplomatic status. In the latter case, the most that can legitimately be done is to return them to their country of origin. Of course, the Palestinians might argue that they did not accredit U.S. diplomats within their territory and that these personnel were instead operating only with the permission of Israel, which in their view is a hostile occupying power in that territory.
Of course, the Palestinian conflict is not a normal warfare situation and the United States, in any case, is not a direct combatant. The Palestinian militants would, however, probably argue that they are at war and that the U.S. is providing direct support to Israel in the war.
My own view, nonetheless, is that killing is killing ? I have very little sympathy even for war conducted by the rules (and it seems unclear, as suggested above, that this was done in accordance with any recognized rules). War is an admission of failure and can only be justified as a last resort. There seem to be few who are promoting a real path to peace in Israel and Palestine, about which I have written at length in these forums.
Originally posted by segovius
Israel want to take out Syria.
Bush will do it for them but needs a pretext.
Oh look, those silly terrorists have provided one (again)..how convenient...
...here we go, here we go, here we go.....(repeat and don't fade)
Edit: this convoy seems to have included CIA operatives which imo makes a legitimate target. ...
Shows how little you know. But ignornace is your strong point.
Originally posted by segovius
Further I should add that (for once) it is not the muslims who are the prime offenders in this - in fact the Palestinian cause, such as it is, is framed almost exclusively to exclude religious sensibilities. The offenders here are the 'Christian' Right and the Israeli fundamentalist who, although obviously not religious in the strict sense of the word, are manipulating the Xian fundies who are. Rabidly so.
This is one (of many) area where we'd make a quantum leap by stamping out this insane superstition of 'born again Xiainty' and moving into the 21st century.
Once again your anti-Israel/anti-Christian bigotry is getting the better of you Seg. But, to out and out lie to prove your point, is a little beneath you.
You state "in fact the Palestinian cause, such as it is, is framed almost exclusively to exclude religious sensibilities" This may have been true at one point, perhaps in the very early days of the PLO or other 'secular' groups. But to claim the Palestinian cause is framed as anything but a religious cause now is just an open lie.
Arafat and the PA encourage school children to take up arms and attempt suicide bombings, not under the guise of nationalism, but is a purely islamic way, by promoting Shahada in school, through MTV style music videos, through other common indoctination techniques. hamas is obviously a religiously motivated group. The call to free Falatine goes far and wide across the world, not just to other arabs, but to all Muslims. How is that 'not framed in a religious contect' again?
Originally posted by segovius
They are at war - they don't have a uniformed army but I think you'll find that if they were allowed to then they would use it to attack Israel.
They say they are at war - maybe a guerilla war but that's war in my book. Call it what you like - they're killing each other.
The US kill innocent women and children - wanna see some pics of that little boy Ali with no arms and legs ? Or the dead kids and 55 civilians strewn over Abu Taleb market ? Maybe they're not innocent in your view. Maybe it didn't happen in your view. Wouldn't surprise me.
I say they are legitimate targets if they are sneaking round in the Gaza or the Occupied territories.
Israeli is killing kids - Palestinians are killing Israelis. Like I always say, depends whose side you're on. Don't try to take the moral high ground - at least do what the Israelis do and say 'yeah we killed Palestinians - so what ?'. This I can respect, let's you know who and what you're dealing with but spare us the sanctimonious BS. It's a war. People are killing each other.
Seriously for a minute - I have no perticular axe to grind against the US but if they continue to unevenly and unconditionally support Israel then US operatives on the ground are legitimate targets by definition.
Turn it round - if another country not yet involved in Iraq (say) sends in operatives that are 100% behind al Qaeda (say) both you and I know they would be legitimate targets.
The US needs to start leading the world in some justice - that's the only thing that can save her now. Two weeks ago Israel bombed civilians outside Damascus. Bush supported it. Any other country sent bombers to another country and killed civilians and it would be an act of war. That's hypocrisy and that's also the cause of terrorism because if people can't look to America for justice where can they look ? They should look to America and they should get justice from America - they don't, so they take the law into their own hands. You'd do the same. Except in this case you call them terrorists - but because you're on the other side. No tother reason.
Fair enough - but just tell it like it is.
1) The US does not delibrately target civilians. You know that, I know that, and any intellectually honest person knows that.
2) Sneaking around Gaza? Who says? We don't even know if they were undercover. Let me make sure I hear you: They are IN Gaza, so they're targets? So, if I go to Gaza, I'm a target in a legitimate war? Hmmm.
3) I wouldn't say we uncoditionally support Israel. We've held them back big time. We've even condemned some of their actions.
4) Your Iraq/Al-Queda comment: Are you seriously comparing the US presence in Iraq to the PALESTINIAN SIDE? Your telling me that their "forces" have the same right to "target" as we do? We are a uniformed army who has stated goals of returning control to the people of Iraq. Whether you like that or not, it's the way things are.
5) Civilians in Damascus: I'm so sick of these BS statements. Israel does not directly target innocent civilians. They DO target terrorists. I want proof of your civilian claim re: Damascus.
Tell it like it is you say? Alright then,
Your last paragragh is typical blame America first (and always) leftism. The US is not at fault for this situation in Israel. The US is not at fault for most things, actually. Justice? The Palestinians have been given every chance to set up a state and live by Israel side-by-side. They obviously don't want that and are breeding a terror culture. It's a way of life. Their leadership is an utter disaster.
Since you obviously dissaprove of US actions on this, why don't you tell us specifically what should change. "Stop supporting Israel" is a ridiculous line, because "Palestine" is not a recognized state. As long as "Palestine" continues to attack Irsael, it's terrorism.
This is the bottom line: Israel must withdraw completely and announce total comittment to peace. Israel must also announce that any further attacks will put a permament end to the peace process. In other words "We're going to withdraw completely...and if you still attack us we are going to annihilate you from this Earth".
Originally posted by segovius
Basically Israel is getting desparate now - even after all these years and all that money and tech and a full-on fascist butcher in control of the Knesset, they still can't take down the Palestinians. Abrams tank vs stone throwing kid and they still can't wrap it up. They never will (maybe they should read their own scriptures - the Goliath bit) so a wider conventional war is their only hope.
Perhaps if the Israeli's uses the same standards for targeting that the Palestinians use, then they would 'wrapped it up'. Perhaps one day the will. Instead, they use restraint. They send in foot soldiers, instead of just using massive airstrikes against populated areas to get a militant. They build a wall instead of just cleansing the area entirely. They could use tactics and methods common to the region, instead they restrain their military response. You are right, they haven't taken down the Palestinians, and maybe it's because they don't have the desire to wipe the off the face of the earth...as their enemies want to do.
Originally posted by Scott
Yea you know the high ground always works well when facing murderous terrorist.
Nah, it just sets up a legitimate response.