North Korea Can't Stand
Forget your hatred of Bush or adulation of all things peaceful. Forget about possible nuclear bombs or nonproliferation.
Concentrating on just the facts surrounding the current state of North Korea and you can only come to the conclusion that this state has existed for too long and it's time to end it. Of course this is long over due and the free world should be ashamed for not doing something sooner. The inhumane treatment of the people of that country can't be allowed to continue. I don't know if it's the worse or most important but doing nothing is the wrong thing.
This op-ed is based on a report by The U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea.. Which should be on-line later today.
North Korea's Gulags
Even babies aren't spared from Pyongyang's regime of torture and murder.
BY CLAUDIA ROSETT
Wednesday, October 22, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT
Please read the link before replying.
Concentrating on just the facts surrounding the current state of North Korea and you can only come to the conclusion that this state has existed for too long and it's time to end it. Of course this is long over due and the free world should be ashamed for not doing something sooner. The inhumane treatment of the people of that country can't be allowed to continue. I don't know if it's the worse or most important but doing nothing is the wrong thing.
This op-ed is based on a report by The U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea.. Which should be on-line later today.
North Korea's Gulags
Even babies aren't spared from Pyongyang's regime of torture and murder.
BY CLAUDIA ROSETT
Wednesday, October 22, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT
Quote:
...
The report presents the grim individual stories of 30 defectors interviewed by Mr. Hawk in-depth, and culled from these, to further clarify the customs of the camps, is a long list of the tortures described. "Worst of all," as the report puts it, is a roster of stories detailing the routine murder of babies born to prisoners, as told by eight separate eyewitnesses. One common denominator is that when pregnant women are forcibly repatriated after fleeing to China, it is policy to murder their newborns, because they might have been fathered by Chinese men. One account describes babies tossed on the ground to die, with their mothers forced to watch. In another interview, a former prisoner, a 66-year-old grandmother, identified as "Detainee #24" to protect relatives still perhaps alive in North Korea, describes being assigned to help in the delivery of babies who were thrown immediately into a plastic-lined box to die in bulk lots. The report notes: "The interviewer had difficulty finding words to describe the sadness in this grandmother's eyes and the anguish on her face as she recounted her experience as a midwife at the detention center in South Sinuiju"--one of the sites shown in detail in the accompanying satellite photos.
...
The report presents the grim individual stories of 30 defectors interviewed by Mr. Hawk in-depth, and culled from these, to further clarify the customs of the camps, is a long list of the tortures described. "Worst of all," as the report puts it, is a roster of stories detailing the routine murder of babies born to prisoners, as told by eight separate eyewitnesses. One common denominator is that when pregnant women are forcibly repatriated after fleeing to China, it is policy to murder their newborns, because they might have been fathered by Chinese men. One account describes babies tossed on the ground to die, with their mothers forced to watch. In another interview, a former prisoner, a 66-year-old grandmother, identified as "Detainee #24" to protect relatives still perhaps alive in North Korea, describes being assigned to help in the delivery of babies who were thrown immediately into a plastic-lined box to die in bulk lots. The report notes: "The interviewer had difficulty finding words to describe the sadness in this grandmother's eyes and the anguish on her face as she recounted her experience as a midwife at the detention center in South Sinuiju"--one of the sites shown in detail in the accompanying satellite photos.
Please read the link before replying.
Comments
too bad we screwed the pooch and the world doesn't really trust us to get it right. Also... Iraq was a cakewalk (initially) Korea would be a nightmare militairly. It's nice that you think that the US is invincible and that we can just go around toppling all the bad regimes... but as Afghanistan and Iraq show... toppling is easy, it's that aftermath that's a bitch... and those countries were very different than North Korea.
U.S. forces are already stretched precariously thin.
I also think that China has to take some responsibility to help solve the situation in North Korea, a situation that they have helped perpetuate over the years. This will have to include some military responsibility, if, as an absolute last resort, it comes to this. In this particular area, nothing will happen without China's help.
Clearly war will not help their situation any. It's very likely in a large-scale conflict, hundreds of thousands and probably millions of them will die or be maimed. And such a war will definitely spread their suffering south of the border on a massive scale. So what do we do?
Do we ask for the resignation of the "IL" one? Somehow I don't think he will ever step down willingly. How do you remove him without a war? You told me to get my head on straight in the other thread, so I'm coming to the source for "straight answers" in this case....
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Seems like the North Korea problem should have been handled way BEFORE Iraq was... it was an "imminent threat" last year...
too bad we screwed the pooch and the world doesn't really trust us to get it right. Also... Iraq was a cakewalk (initially) Korea would be a nightmare militairly. It's nice that you think that the US is invincible and that we can just go around toppling all the bad regimes... but as Afghanistan and Iraq show... toppling is easy, it's that aftermath that's a bitch... and those countries were very different than North Korea.
U.S. forces are already stretched precariously thin.
No kidding.
Scott, you seem like a relatively intelligent guy. What I don't understand is why you haven't stopped to reflect on your image of the world. You were horribly wrong on Iraq. You are now advocating a massive and deadly military action in a time when our military frighteningly thin and the country has no money even for the current situation. That's great that you want to go save the world, but it's not realistic. And while military action should be the last option in any situation, it is crazy to even consider it in the NK situation right now.
Originally posted by groverat
NK has no giant economic prospects. KJI will remain in power.
???? Groverat admitting what the war in Iraq was really about?
I agree with Scott, if we really did act according to our moral convictions than we would have done something a long time ago.
I too read about the prison camps and the murder of babies and torture techniques, it is, as was the existence of teh Taliban, a shame on all of the so-called civilized world that we allow this sort of regime to exist contiguous to our prospering . . . we should 'do something' about it.
Unfortunately there are many real reasons that we can't: including an standing army that is ONE MILLION strong and fixated on nothing but the 'enemy' Americans and 'Imperialist Dogs', huge artillery batteries pointed at Seoul, possible nuclear devices and big missiles etc . . . any military move would create immense suffering beyond and as well as that of the camps.
I can imagine that we could start a psy-ops campaign against those that have access to the outside world includie Kim Jong Il, he is repoortedly an 'intelligent' man (however: obviously, how intelligent can he really be if he allows this sort of existence to exist?!) he might be shown the error of his ways through massive propaganda directed his way.
Or with some of the Generals in his army: they supposedly 'care' about the Korean People: prove to them that what they are maintaining is the single worst possible thing that the Korean People could experience . . . and they are responsible for it . . .
Just an idea . . .
also: the NYT Magazine had an article on the Sanity of KJI this week . . . he is more cunning than crazy . . .
Originally posted by groverat
?Chinney not understanding what others say??????
Perhaps not understanding what you were saying in your one-line post.
Feel free to fill in your rationale.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Seems like the North Korea problem should have been handled way BEFORE Iraq was... it was an "imminent threat" last year...
too bad we screwed the pooch and the world doesn't really trust us to get it right. Also... Iraq was a cakewalk (initially) Korea would be a nightmare militairly. It's nice that you think that the US is invincible and that we can just go around toppling all the bad regimes... but as Afghanistan and Iraq show... toppling is easy, it's that aftermath that's a bitch... and those countries were very different than North Korea.
U.S. forces are already stretched precariously thin.
Needs to be quoted again since this is just the damn plain truth...
Our "president" is such a @$#$ up...
Originally posted by Scott
Forget about possible nuclear bombs or nonproliferation.[..]
Concentrating on just the facts surrounding the current state of North Korea and you can only come to the conclusion that this state has existed for too long and it's time to end it.
This is the perfect definition of desaster waiting to happen.
I am with you that North Korea is a human rights Chernobyl, though.
Originally posted by giant
No kidding.
Scott, you seem like a relatively intelligent guy. What I don't understand is why you haven't stopped to reflect on your image of the world. You were horribly wrong on Iraq. You are now advocating a massive and deadly military action in a time when our military frighteningly thin and the country has no money even for the current situation. That's great that you want to go save the world, but it's not realistic. And while military action should be the last option in any situation, it is crazy to even consider it in the NK situation right now.
Maybe you could post again without putting words in my mouth. See if you can?
Originally posted by Scott
Maybe you could post again without putting words in my mouth. See if you can?
That's not his job, that's YOUR job.
But what do you suggest Scott : fight NK ?
Do you think that KJI will forget nukes (if he has ones), and more generally all the WOMD he has (and he has ones) ?
Do you think that China, even if she is not a big fan of NK, will stay harm crossed, with a armed conflict at her frontier ?
Unfortunately i don't think so, and the US admin also. In fact no expert will think so.
In a humanitarian point of vue : a clean war is legitimate, but in practice it will be a disaster.
Originally posted by Scott
Maybe you could post again without putting words in my mouth. See if you can?
Let's look at what you wrote:
Originally posted by Scott
...it's time to end it...can't be allowed to continue...stand up and tell the leaders of North Korea that their time is up...
Somehow I missed how you explained that we can 'stand up and tell the leaders of North Korea that their time is up' without a military action.
How do you feel about the current state of human rights in North Korea? What do you think the world should do about it? Given that the current government is so grossly out of line, what timeline would you propose for ending this brutal system and bring freedom to these people?
Originally posted by Scott
Sounds like your problem. Care to participate in the thread or will this just be an "attack scott" discussion for you?
How do you feel about the current state of human rights in North Korea? What do you think the world should do about it? Given that the current government is so grossly out of line, what timeline would you propose for ending this brutal system and bring freedom to these people?
Well, my best friend growing up is the son of perhaps the leading US scholar of Chinese history. I've spent many, many evenings learning quite a bit about China and SE Asia from him. Its like being tutored for many years. And even with that, I know that I don't know enough about the history, forces or people involved to make at all of a meaningful proposal.
Of course, it's clear that for some reason there are people that compelled to make uninformed statements about whatever is in the news at a particular time. For some reason these people seem to be the same ones that were wrong about Iraq. Not surprising.
NK is a weird little country, the very existence of which at this point appears to rely on its isolation. My understanding is that the best solution is to begin integrating the country into the region and using that to push reforms.
Beyond that, I don't know enough of the players involved. I don't know the names of the people in the top 3 tiers of the NK government. I don't know all of the significant changes in China over the past 2 years or so or all of the effects of the few major ones everyone knows about. I don't fully know japan's role or history in the conflict. I highly doubt you do either.
So what do I think of human rights in NK? What kind of idiot question is that? The real issue is to get people into policy-making positions in the US that understand this is a complex and very dangerous situation that needs delicate and informed solutions, rather than people led by an ideology shaped by careless threats and violence.
Still waiting for an answer(s) Scott....