Private/Public college elitist pigs, the busboy can't eat!
Eat your cake!
It's no secret that many folks are this board are extremely progressive. However as they say, think global, act local. So I wondered for those of you attending colleges whether you knew cared, or assisted the staff of your universities in unionizing. I don't mean the blue bearded old white men with their pensions and oppressive western canons of thought. I mean the men and women cleaning the toilets, busing the tables, and washing the dishes.
There are those of you out there who might work in some service industry in some token gesture to show you are earning your white privilege. The minor inconvenience for you is a lifestyle for others. Have you worked to improve their lot or are your lazy a$$es slogging Starbucks, stealing mp3's on your Powerbooks and complaining about the whole miserable 16 hours a week you might have to work while others can't eat or pay their rent. Get up and do something to improve their plight with your privilege!
Nick
It's no secret that many folks are this board are extremely progressive. However as they say, think global, act local. So I wondered for those of you attending colleges whether you knew cared, or assisted the staff of your universities in unionizing. I don't mean the blue bearded old white men with their pensions and oppressive western canons of thought. I mean the men and women cleaning the toilets, busing the tables, and washing the dishes.
There are those of you out there who might work in some service industry in some token gesture to show you are earning your white privilege. The minor inconvenience for you is a lifestyle for others. Have you worked to improve their lot or are your lazy a$$es slogging Starbucks, stealing mp3's on your Powerbooks and complaining about the whole miserable 16 hours a week you might have to work while others can't eat or pay their rent. Get up and do something to improve their plight with your privilege!
Nick
Comments
But in Jersey, the unions are huge crutches. The construction work and all other union labor I've seen is incredbly lackadaisical in these parts. I wouldn't support the unions here for a second. Let the market dictate what things are worth, and not a 5 hour workday.
Then again, all encounters I've had with the "locals" in the DC area have been quite positive.
You´ll see these things all around you if you look carefully.
The left most party in the danish parliarment has the worst, THE WORST staff policy I have ever seen just to name one example.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
I've done real, manual labor in the past. I'm also about a progressive as you can get, in the true sense of the word.
But in Jersey, the unions are huge crutches. The construction work and all other union labor I've seen is incredbly lackadaisical in these parts. I wouldn't support the unions here for a second. Let the market dictate what things are worth, and not a 5 hour workday.
Then again, all encounters I've had with the "locals" in the DC area have been quite positive.
I'm willing to bet you're about as progressive as my thumb from your posts here at AI..
Originally posted by ShawnJ
I'm willing to bet you're about as progressive as my thumb from your posts here at AI..
So when are you going to post your list of progressive achievements so we can compare properly?
I'm not really trying to be mean, you directly compared yourself to him and declared yourself better and him wanting so put up or don't go degrading others.
Besides the point is that "posting" is nothing when you leave here and go to reality. Actions are a better measure. You can be very progessive in your posts and in reality be watching your neighbor starve.
Nick
Originally posted by Splinemodel
I've done real, manual labor in the past. I'm also about a progressive as you can get, in the true sense of the word.
But in Jersey, the unions are huge crutches. The construction work and all other union labor I've seen is incredbly lackadaisical in these parts.
I take it you've been observing all the construction going on around the Princeton campus, eh? Construction is the worst culprit of abuse of union power. We used a spray on waterproofing for a foundation for a project so one person could do the job of 4. So what do we see in the field during its application? One guy spraying on the stuff and three to watch him do it.
I worked two jobs every summer before and during college... Landscaping and in Kitchens. 60+ hours a week. To make money for school. I didn't have a car at school until the 2nd half of my junior year... so I could do my internship and get my projects done for my design major.
I worked during my spring breaks too.
My dad served 20 years in the Air Force. My mother was a teacher... her father a farmer then general store owner.
I seem to remember a certain republican president destroying the airtraffic controllers union.
Originally posted by groverat
I have.
Watching the biography of Cesar Chavez on the History Channel doesn't count Grove.
Nick
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Progessives are elitist... that's a good one.
I worked two jobs every summer before and during college... Landscaping and in Kitchens. 60+ hours a week. To make money for school. I didn't have a car at school until the 2nd half of my junior year... so I could do my internship and get my projects done for my design major.
I worked during my spring breaks too.
My dad served 20 years in the Air Force. My mother was a teacher... her father a farmer then general store owner.
I seem to remember a certain republican president destroying the airtraffic controllers union.
The insinuation wasn't that progressives are elitist. Rather that many people mouth progressivism while not practicing it in their actions.
If someone mouthed support for the environment while developing wetlands and driving their SUV's how much credibility would they have with you? In fact I would say a common progressive complaint about Bush is that he says the right things but doesn't back them with actions.
Nick
Arnold and his fleet of hummers... is a friend of the environment?
Harvard and Yale students have been rallying to unionize and help the employees there.
There's plenty of hypocrits on oth sides of the fence... no doubt.
Originally posted by trumptman
The insinuation wasn't that progressives are elitist. Rather that many people mouth progressivism while not practicing it in their actions.
If someone mouthed support for the environment while developing wetlands and driving their SUV's how much credibility would they have with you? In fact I would say a common progressive complaint about Bush is that he says the right things but doesn't back them with actions.
Nick
You should really stop posting dumb things. There's a difference between not acting on something and acting against something. I can hold progressive views and act on them- which is commendable. I can hold progressive views but not actually do anything- which is not wrong. Or I can hold progressive views and act against them- which is hypocritical. Your two examples are just so incompatible that I don't know what to think besides stupidity.
But then you just get plain intellectually dishonest:
Originally posted by trumptman
So when are you going to post your list of progressive achievements so we can compare properly?
I'm not really trying to be mean, you directly compared yourself to him and declared yourself better and him wanting so put up or don't go degrading others.
Besides the point is that "posting" is nothing when you leave here and go to reality. Actions are a better measure. You can be very progessive in your posts and in reality be watching your neighbor starve.
Nick [/B]
I mean nowhere did I say I was "better" than Splinemodel. Nowhere did I insinuate that either. Rather, I very much doubted his standing as "more progressive than anyone" given his other posts that show a much more conservative worldview. To be completely honest, he did qualify that statement with the phrase "in the true sense of the word." So obviously he means something different than progressivism as a political ideology- which stands in stark contrast to other ideologies.
I think it's dangerously misleading to suggest a conservative is actually "progressive." Progressive conservatism is a contradiction of terms because to be progressive requires support for policies that starkly contrast with conservative policies (and ideology). There's no other way around it. If there is a middle ground anyone can think of, I would be glad to hear it. Someone who is mostly conservative can hold progressive views on a number of different things- for instance on education. But that's just qualified conservatism as opposed to the epitome of progressivism.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
You should really stop posting dumb things. There's a difference between not acting on something and acting against something. I can hold progressive views and act on them- which is commendable. I can hold progressive views but not actually do anything- which is not wrong. Or I can hold progressive views and act against them- which is hypocritical. Your two examples are just so incompatible that I don't know what to think besides stupidity.
But then you just get plain intellectually dishonest:
I mean nowhere did I say I was "better" than Splinemodel. Nowhere did I insinuate that either. Rather, I very much doubted his standing as "more progressive than anyone" given his other posts that show a much more conservative worldview. To be completely honest, he did qualify that statement with the phrase "in the true sense of the word." So obviously he means something different than progressivism as a political ideology- which stands in stark contrast to other ideologies.
I think it's dangerously misleading to suggest a conservative is actually "progressive." Progressive conservatism is a contradiction of terms because to be progressive requires support for policies that starkly contrast with conservative policies (and ideology). There's no other way around it. If there is a middle ground anyone can think of, I would be glad to hear it. Someone who is mostly conservative can hold progressive views on a number of different things- for instance on education. But that's just qualified conservatism as opposed to the epitome of progressivism.
Shawn,
Take a better class or demand a refund. You preschool chants of liar, liar are banal. Between that and you declaring it "dumb" I think you are ready for second grade.
You claim that it would be okay to have progressive views yet not act on them. Yet since progressivism is by definition a change agent how would you be to claim the title if you did not meet the definition. You suggest change is possible with no action.
Even more humorous you then rail about how you cannot be a conservative progressive. Since conservatives harken back to "good ol'days" or wish to leave things as they are with classes of people who are impoverished and very rich. You correctly claim you cannot claim to leave things as they are while also claiming to change them.
However if you one an inactive agent of change I would not label one progressive. I would label them permissive. They tolerate many things, but do not seek to change the elitist system from which they benefit.
Lastly you are just dishonest with what you said to Splinemodel. You even intentionally misquote him to justify your actions. He did not say he was "more progressive." He said he was "as progressive." For you to say his entire being was as progressive as your thumb and then declare that to not be a judgement or comparison is just dishonest spin on your part. You clearly compared and judged yourself to Spline and declare him lacking. (unless you consider your thumb the height of human achievement)
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Shawn,
Take a better class or demand a refund. You preschool chants of liar, liar are banal. Between that and you declaring it "dumb" I think you are ready for second grade.
You claim that it would be okay to have progressive views yet not act on them. Yet since progressivism is by definition a change agent how would you be to claim the title if you did not meet the definition. You suggest change is possible with no action.
Even more humorous you then rail about how you cannot be a conservative progressive. Since conservatives harken back to "good ol'days" or wish to leave things as they are with classes of people who are impoverished and very rich. You correctly claim you cannot claim to leave things as they are while also claiming to change them.
However if you one an inactive agent of change I would not label one progressive. I would label them permissive. They tolerate many things, but do not seek to change the elitist system from which they benefit.
Lastly you are just dishonest with what you said to Splinemodel. You even intentionally misquote him to justify your actions. He did not say he was "more progressive." He said he was "as progressive." For you to say his entire being was as progressive as your thumb and then declare that to not be a judgement or comparison is just dishonest spin on your part. You clearly compared and judged yourself to Spline and declare him lacking. (unless you consider your thumb the height of human achievement)
Nick
Somewhere, buried in the pathetic waste of time that post was- was the classic works vs. faith dilemma that split the Roman Catholic church so many years ago. Both traditions assume that one still has faith in Jesus, or more appropriately- that one still believes in one's respective ideology. But in order to attain salvation in Roman Catholicism, one must do good things- or works.
I don't believe that a progressive must actively do good things to be considered progressive. I think voting is a way to do nothing yet still act- if you can get past the paradox of what I am saying. But if you claim to be "as progressive as anyone" while having clearly conservative views on a lot of things- that's wrong- clearly contradictory.
I have progressive views on mostly everything, but maybe I'm willing to concede more than a progressive thumb to splinemodel's progressivism. Not much more.
Conservatism - A political philosophy or attitude emphasizing respect for traditional institutions, distrust of government activism, and opposition to sudden change in the established order.
Looking at those two definitions, I can see a bit of a middle ground. Being opposed to sudden change yet open to intelligent review of new policies, ideas, or methods allowing for eventual implementation would be the definition of a progressive conservative.
Anyway, I think using the term liberal or conservative anymore is just silly. People like Shawn and Scott, really two sides of the same coin more than either of them would like to think, have stolen these words from the public and turned them into an n-bomb.
I am for social freedoms, very limited government, and economics that focuses on personal responsibility. Sure, it takes a little longer to say but it doesn't allow people like Shawn or Scott or Bunge or SDW to change your message based on a word they have hijacked.
According the most relevant definition at Dictionary.com, a progressive is one who "promotes or favors progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods." Clearly, the role of action is not necessary to be considered progressive. To say otherwise is probably a lame attempt to hold someone's opposing ideology to a double standard.
Imagine if a liberal called a conservative "not a conservative" because he or she is not a conservative activist...
So there.
Originally posted by BR
Progressive - Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods: a progressive politician; progressive business leadership.
Conservatism - A political philosophy or attitude emphasizing respect for traditional institutions, distrust of government activism, and opposition to sudden change in the established order.
Looking at those two definitions, I can see a bit of a middle ground. Being opposed to sudden change yet open to intelligent review of new policies, ideas, or methods allowing for eventual implementation would be the definition of a progressive conservative.
Anyway, I think using the term liberal or conservative anymore is just silly. People like Shawn and Scott, really two sides of the same coin more than either of them would like to think, have stolen these words from the public and turned them into an n-bomb.
I am for social freedoms, very limited government, and economics that focuses on personal responsibility. Sure, it takes a little longer to say but it doesn't allow people like Shawn or Scott or Bunge or SDW to change your message based on a word they have hijacked.
Well, I would certainly give you ample opportunity to explain in what ways you think Scott and I are similar. I think we are dissimilar stylistically, ethically, morally, ideologically... it's not hard to find differences. But I'm not offended to be considered as liberal as Scott is conservative. I would be offended if I was thought of as a liar, a poster of dubious ethics, someone who misleads intentionally. I consider myself earnest and truthful, and I'm entirely receptive to criticism on any instance where I am not. So go ahead, BR. I'm all open.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
I'm willing to bet you're about as progressive as my thumb from your posts here at AI..
General political-economic "socialism" is not progressive. It's a throwback to an older era of feudalism with a little bit of civil liberty gained. (which would means it's regressive) True progressives are people who believe in moving society ahead to a new era, not copying the mistakes of the past and sugar coating them.
I am liberal and progressive. Unfortunately, today's "liberal progressives" distrust freedom and are terrified of change. I am a huge supporter of the most important yet most manipulated progressive manifesto ever written: The American Declaration of Independence.
So if I'm conservative for loving a 230 year old document, modern liberals are necrophiliacs, for loving policies much older which died only to be unearthed and made-over as of late.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
General political-economic "socialism" is not progressive. It's a throwback to an older era of feudalism with a little bit of civil liberty gained. True progressives are people who believe in moving society ahead to a new era, not copying the mistakes of the past and sugar coating them.
I am liberal and progressive. Unfortunately, today's "liberal progressives" distrust freedom and are terrified of change. I am a huge supporter of the most important yet most manipulated progressive manifesto ever written: The American Declaration of Independence.
So if I'm conservative for loving a 230 year old document, modern liberals are necrophiliacs, for loving policies much older which died only to be unearthed and made-over as of late.
Indeed. And the thumb comment was so Scott-esque.
Originally posted by BR
Indeed. And the thumb comment was so Scott-esque.
If inoffensive figurative language is Scott-esque then I fully embrace it.