Bigotry German Style
Xenophobia rules the day in Germany. Now they want to ban Muslims from wearing head scarves in schools. Too political they say. Maybe someone should explain to the dumb Germans that Islam is a religion and not a political party.
German state plans headscarf ban
German state plans headscarf ban
Quote:
A German state has begun moves to ban Muslims from wearing headscarves in schools.
The bill was proposed by the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg ...
The legislation is expected to gain approval from the state parliament early next year.
...
"The aim of the law is to forbid state teachers from wearing symbols which could be regarded as political," said Erwin Teufel, state premier of Baden-Wuerttemberg.
...
A German state has begun moves to ban Muslims from wearing headscarves in schools.
The bill was proposed by the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg ...
The legislation is expected to gain approval from the state parliament early next year.
...
"The aim of the law is to forbid state teachers from wearing symbols which could be regarded as political," said Erwin Teufel, state premier of Baden-Wuerttemberg.
...
Comments
Originally posted by Scott
Xenophobia rules the day in Germany. Now they want to ban Muslims from wearing head scarves in schools. Too political they say. Maybe someone should explain to the dumb Germans that Islam is a religion and not a political party.
German state plans headscarf ban
It's not as simple. Head scarves are not mandatory in Islam : it's just an interpretation of some verses. In many cases there is a pressure from the family to oblige the girls to put one in their heads : some are really putting them by free will, but it's not the case for others. The girls who wear head scarves also do not practice sports. In principle practicing sports is mandatory in school like any others subjects.
Head scarves, are of course in itself, not dangerous, but can be the first step for others religious demand : do not work the day of the Islamic god ...
It's more a political pressure in order to adapt the society to the islamic way of life : it will lead to communitarism. Freedoom of religion is important at the condition of the separation of the religion and the state. Many parts of Islam deals with real life, modern islamist thinks that this part is not the important part of Islam, but for integrist it is.
I truly support this dumb germans. It's difficult to deal with the head scarves when in a class 6 or 7 girls has one, and do not go in sport class.
I was raised Jehovah's Witness. (Not even *legal* in Germany.) And they have my eternal enmity for their cult... but....
Because of that, when I was a child, I did not recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I had to be absent for any holiday function (Halloween, Xmas, Easter, you name it). I could not join in singing Happy Birthday to classmates.
It *SUCKED*... but trust me, it would have been worse had I been forced to join in. I would have felt that I was betraying my parents, and their beliefs, and for a child there is little worse.
Originally posted by Kickaha
God help me, I'm with Scott on this one.
I was raised Jehovah's Witness. (Not even *legal* in Germany.) And they have my eternal enmity for their cult... but....
Because of that, when I was a child, I did not recite the Pledge of Allegiance. I had to be absent for any holiday function (Halloween, Xmas, Easter, you name it). I could not join in singing Happy Birthday to classmates.
It *SUCKED*... but trust me, it would have been worse had I been forced to join in. I would have felt that I was betraying my parents, and their beliefs, and for a child there is little worse.
Tha's a good point. But did you say the same, if the religion of your parents teach you to dress like a chick ?
I know it's a stupid example, but the question is : do you accept that religion prime always against school guidelines, or is there a limit ?
Originally posted by segovius
Ok, I totally agree with Scott but before i head to the doctor for a check-up I'll say the same thing is happening here in France.
And, I'm sorry to have to say as I love this country, it is being driven by a racist agenda. And believe it or not the bigots organising this pogrom are left wing !!!!
I really never thought I'd come anywhere near this position but it has to be said: Europe (and France, Germany and Britain in particular) are developing extreme signs of racist sickness and it's the left that are making it happen. I don't know about Germany but here in Paris there's gonna be big trouble on the streets before too long - and it's these PC nutters that are going to have to take responsibility.
There is an important principle in french school : Laicity.
Nobody in the class was wearing obvious religious signs, catholic do not wear a huge cross, jews did not wear a kippa, and muslims girl did not wear head scarves. The truth is that i even do not know of what religion they where, in fact i did not care at all : i use to know them for what they where, and not for what they look.
Now imagine that the class is seperated in differents sections : the catholic wear red shirts, the lutherian white shirts, the muslim a blue one, the jews ...Naturally people will tend to stay in the same T-shirt group : it will promote commutarism.
Laicity has worked in France since one hundred years. I trust this value.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
There is an important principle in french school : Laicity.
Nobody in the class was wearing obvious religious signs, catholic do not wear a huge cross, jews did not wear a kippa, and muslims girl did not wear head scarves. The truth is that i even do not know of what religion they where, in fact i did not care at all : i use to know them for what they where, and not for what they look.
Now imagine that the class is seperated in differents sections : the catholic wear red shirts, the lutherian white shirts, the muslim a blue one, the jews ...Naturally people will tend to stay in the same T-shirt group : it will promote commutarism.
Laicity has worked in France since one hundred years. I trust this value.
The trick is to see other people as who they are not what they are. Its much much easier if you hide what they are but its a bit like lying.
Originally posted by Scott
Xenophobia rules the day in Germany. Now they want to ban Muslims from wearing head scarves in schools. Too political they say. Maybe someone should explain to the dumb Germans that Islam is a religion and not a political party.
My man starts a thread bemoaning 'bigotry' and 'xenophobia' and then calls an entire nation 'dumb'.
Originally posted by Anders
The trick is to see other people as who they are not what they are. Its much much easier if you hide what they are but its a bit like lying.
The trick is that most girls do not really want to wear this head scarves : but they obey to their families.
I have heard an interview on the radio, from an muslim woman saying that islam do not teach that women wear head scarves : it's only an interpreation. This woman said also that she was for the interdiction of head scarves in school, because it was against women rights. She said that head scarves means that the girl was mature in a sexual point of vue and good for wedding. And a wedding with an husband that she not necessary choose. At the age of 18 they are sending back to their countrie of origine in order to be married.
You will notice that not all muslims do this, it's only a minority. My muslim friends are modern and are not concerned by such behavioring. The head scarve in itself is just a clothes, but it's also a symbol : the symbol of an islam where the wife obey to the family and stay at home.
Originally posted by Scott
Xenophobia rules the day in Germany. Now they want to ban Muslims from wearing head scarves in schools. Too political they say. Maybe someone should explain to the dumb Germans that Islam is a religion and not a political party.
It is called "separation of church and state". Go look it up somewhere.
If you want to teach in a german public school, you have to refrain from pushing political and religious views aggressively (those are lumped together as "Weltanschauung" over here). You have to be neutral in the values you teach. For the same reason, there was a court decision that parents can demand the crucifix is removed from the classroom (how xenophobic...). For the same reason, teachers were banned from wearing communist or left-wing stickers for decades.
The supreme court ruled that there was no legal basis denying a muslim teacher wearing the scarf while teachers could (in the same state) wear christian symbols. They dodged the question if wearing a scarf is an aggressive display of your religious beliefs and left it to the states to work it out in state laws.
The proposed law cited in the BBC article actually created an outcry here and it will be knocked down with 99% certainty in the next round of law suits going before the supreme court, because it discriminates against islam.
Actually, the pompous self-righteousness on Scott's part aside, there is quite an interesting process of change below this. Unlike the rather christian fundamentalist USA, Germany has more or less shed the traditional amalagamation of christianity and state in the last decades. Nuns are, however, still allowed to teach in their traditional habit. IF the scarf is banned, the habit will be banned too before long. The proposed law tries to make some weak defense in trying to differentiate between the habit and the scarf, but there is little doubt this will not stand in court.
Scott, I know, you know shit about Germany (or Europe for that matter), but before you call a whole people dumb and whine about them being xenophobic in one paragraph, you'd better shut the fvck up, it's so pathetic
Maybe you should come over for vacation instead of spilling filth and venom in some internet board.
Kickaha: Jehova's withnesses are completely legal here, seems like propaganda on their side...
segovius: Baden-Württemberg (the state which proposed the law) is not under a left-wing government, it is governed by the christian democratic union (CDU) which would be the republican party in the US. Exactly because of their right-wing christian heritage did they propose a law that puts islam in an inferior position. The federal goverment (which is left-wing) has no say in this, but has publicly disapproved of the proposal.
Re : French racism.. during WW2 many so called French liberals supported the German moves to deport Jews on mass.
In fact, the French were so ruthless and efficient that the bloody Nazi's had to ask the French authorities to slow down !
It breaks my heart..it truly does...
Originally posted by Aquafire
In fact, the French were so ruthless and efficient that the bloody Nazi's had to ask the French authorities to slow down !
Interesting
Originally posted by Smircle
It is called "separation of church and state". Go look it up somewhere.
...
Maybe you should because 1) you have it wrong and 2) we also have a thing called "freedom" which IMO trumps SoC&S.
Originally posted by Scott
Maybe you should because 1) you have it wrong and 2) we also have a thing called "freedom" which IMO trumps SoC&S.
I guess this is why children have to pledge alliance not only to the flag, but to god as well? To foster their freedom to believe or not?
Hypocrite.
Originally posted by segovius
I don't remember learning that in history Aqua ! Any kind of supporting evidence ?
Basically I think there were (are) a lot of closet Nazis in Europe who were scared to come out of the closet (except in the England where it is de rigeur to be a 'little englander') and now are swarming out of the woodwork feeling that the post-911 climate is a more hospitable one for their racist animus.
Yes there were some pretty controversial books in the 80's that the French tried to have banned.( and one brave movie as I recall).
In particular one historian ridiculed the french obsession with the "resistance" pointing out that at most there were never more than a 100,000 members, ( being generous ) but after the war millions claimed to be active resistance fighters.
Nor do Parisians care to be reminded that within days of the German takeover, it was "back to business" as per usual. Cafes, Opera all doing a roaring business with the Jackboot.
French historians concur, (but would never admit in public) that after almost 10 years of communist~Stalinist inspired union strikes ( during the 1930's ) the french were happy to see anything break their power.
That it came in the form of nazism was not what the general poulation expected, but many were secretly pleased, thinking that it was better to get orders from the Germans than from the Stalinists in their own midst.
Originally posted by segovius
Aqua, 100,000 is a lot for an active resistance. People are basically wanting an easy life and no danger - it doesn't mean they support the Nazis, just that they were too scared to do anything.
The percentage of people ready to put their lives on the line when not directly threatened with death (as in this case) is always quite minimal. I'd say 100,000 was a hell of a lot.
Btw, the Nazis occupied the Channel Islands in the UK too (despite the silence of the English on this issue) and there was zero resistance there. Yep, zero.
Good points Sedge...
Re Channel islands, didn't the Brits kick them out quick smart ?
Originally posted by Smircle
I guess this is why children have to pledge alliance not only to the flag, but to god as well? To foster their freedom to believe or not?
Hypocrite.
What? Wasn´t we talking about what kind of dress people are allowed to wear? I didn´t know that teachers wearing scarves automatically taught children what to believe in?
Powerdoc: Yes you are right to a certain extent. The scarves are often a symbol of "cultural opression" but just as often it is not. And I don´t see how it is any better the state tells me what to wear than my parents or my "culture". Besides prohibiting the scarves doesn´t deal with the cause but only the symptoms. Its like saying "Well its okay to have a patrical family structure, to arrange weddings for your children and in some cases even force them upon them as long as we real europeans don´t have to see it. You will build up a conflict that can stop any communication about the real issues.
Originally posted by Anders
What? Wasn´t we talking about what kind of dress people are allowed to wear? I didn´t know that teachers wearing scarves automatically taught children what to believe in?
This is the heart of the issue: it is considered more than part of a dress, it is considered a religious symbol.
Teachers *in the classroom* are different than ordinary citizens, heck they are different than teachers out of the classroom. They teach not as individuals but as employees of the state who have to pledge to stick to certain conducts of behavior before going into this job. Religious and political neutrality are part of this, at least here.
The real problem is that some morons belonging to the religious right here try to discriminate against islam to try to save the right of nuns to teach adorned with their religious symbol. They lost the first round and they will doubtlessly lose the second, too.
Originally posted by Smircle
This is the heart of the issue: it is considered more than part of a dress, it is considered a religious symbol.
Teachers *in the classroom* are different than ordinary citizens, heck they are different than teachers out of the classroom. They teach not as individuals but as employees of the state who have to pledge to stick to certain conducts of behavior before going into this job. Religious and political neutrality are part of this, at least here.
How do you make a neutral person? You can´t. When I teach with a shirt and black pants I am not neutral but promoting a special culture.
We are all product of the culture we grew up in. To put up rules to how people must look you are saying that some symbols are okay and some are not. You are then favoring one type cultural symbols over another.
And still a scarv in itself isn´t anything. Women here wore scarves up untill 40 years ago and they weren´t muslim. Only if it is followed with a teaching of a certain kind can I see a problem.
Originally posted by Anders
And still a scarv in itself isn´t anything. Women here wore scarves up untill 40 years ago and they weren´t muslim. Only if it is followed with a teaching of a certain kind can I see a problem.
I am not sure I'd agree to this.
40 years ago teachers were allowed to beat misbehaving children in class but this is no longer allowed. You cannot just relate to some random period in time when we are debating the here and now.
Today it is very unusual for (non-islamic) women to wear a scarf in public, so the different attire is rightfully seen as a symbol.
It was - in the public debate which is rather intense as well as in court - never debated if it is a symbol and it was never debated if the German state is allowed to banish symbols that exceed certain limits concerning visibility.
The clash is between the supreme court which upheld the notion that all visible symbols should be treated equally based on laws and some goons who try to undermine the equality to discriminate against certain religions by proposing a law that grants protection to christian symbols because they are part of our heritage.