Other UIs for OS X?

Posted:
in Mac Software edited January 2014
Greetings -



I'm strongly considering picking up a new G5 for my digital photo work, but I have a question about the OS's user interface: Has any brave/crazy/stupid/silly/etc soul ported, say, the X Motif window manager (mwm) to OS X? How about (heaven forbid) CDE?



I've played with a couple of OS X boxen and just can't seem to get the hang of the UI. Can it be replaced? Any documentation I can ready about it?



Thanks!



jas
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 36
    The UI can be modified using Shapeshifter, generally doesn't change it's functionality though, just it's appearance
  • Reply 2 of 36
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by jasonvp

    Greetings -



    I'm strongly considering picking up a new G5 for my digital photo work, but I have a question about the OS's user interface: Has any brave/crazy/stupid/silly/etc soul ported, say, the X Motif window manager (mwm) to OS X? How about (heaven forbid) CDE?



    I've played with a couple of OS X boxen and just can't seem to get the hang of the UI. Can it be replaced? Any documentation I can ready about it?



    Thanks!



    jas




    Actually, X11 is included with MacOS X 10.3, so you can fire that up and run it to your heart's content.



    I think you'd be much better off learning the Aqua UI though... it really is just that nice. (Coming from a guy who's worked with everything from Apple][s to most GUIs under the sun.)



    Anything we can help you with?



    As for documentation, try the Help menu in the Finder. Click on the desktop to activate the Finder (easiest way), then select Mac Help from the Help menu. That's the entry point to the help documentation.
  • Reply 3 of 36
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Actually, X11 is included with MacOS X 10.3, so you can fire that up and run it to your heart's content.



    I know, but if I understand things correctly, the X11 server would be on another screen? Switchable via a keyboard combo? That's not exactly what I'm after.



    Quote:

    I think you'd be much better off learning the Aqua UI though... it really is just that nice. (Coming from a guy who's worked with everything from Apple][s to most GUIs under the sun.)



    I certainly appreciate your opinion, but I don't share it. :-) I've read Apple web pages that imply you can replace Aqua with another manager. That's what I'm curious about.



    Thanks.



    jas
  • Reply 4 of 36
    dobbydobby Posts: 797member
    If you replace Aqua with CDE or Motif what programs will you run? I doubt any except gimp etc.

    Why don't you just buy a G5 install yellow dog and you have CDE anyway.

    Its free as well. (not the G5)



    Dobby.
  • Reply 5 of 36
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by jasonvp

    I know, but if I understand things correctly, the X11 server would be on another screen? Switchable via a keyboard combo? That's not exactly what I'm after.



    That was the 10.2 behaviour. You can set up 10.3 to have the X11 windows interleave with the Aqua windows, or you can set up X11 to be the only window manager (although that takes some mucking about in the guts a tad.)



    Quote:

    I certainly appreciate your opinion, but I don't share it. :-)



    Heathen scum!



    Quote:

    I've read Apple web pages that imply you can replace Aqua with another manager. That's what I'm curious about.



    Yup, you can, but I'm curious, as someone who does UI research... what about Aqua don't you like, specifically?
  • Reply 6 of 36
    The Mac OS X interface is, for all intents and purposes, integrated and not replacable through ordinary means. Think of it as Windows' GUI ia. You can't easily just swap it out for another shell and expect the existing apps to run. You can theme it and change the look of it to an extent, but you can't just gut it and put a new one in its place.



    X11 is a different story. You can run practically any window manager in the X11 environment, but it only affects the X11 apps. The "real" native Mac OS X apps will still use Aqua.



    X11 apps run rootless in 10.3 and are interleaved with the rest of the Aqua apps, as Kickaha said. If you want a pure X11 environment, though, that's possible to set up also. But... what would be the point of buying a Mac? You could run X11 apps on any old cheap PC.



    Like Kickaha, I'm very curious about your comments. What exactly do you find so problematic about Aqua?
  • Reply 7 of 36
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Brad

    Like Kickaha, I'm very curious about your comments. What exactly do you find so problematic about Aqua?



    I imagine that it is the "mandated" aspect of Aqua that many people bristle against (over and above the individual aesthetic preferences each person might have).



    Surely this is familiar, since we longtime Mac users can recall a time prior to Mac OS 8 or platinum, when "Aaron" first came on the scene. There was that other theme program back then that allowed for Windows and other OS GUIs (the one prior to Kaleidoscope and unaffiliated with them - name please?) then later came BeOS hacks and then full fledged Kaleidoscope with thousands of themes.



    I find that there is a bloodthirsty defensiveness of Aqua of late. Apple used to be about user-empowerment and options. Now it is very tightly controlled.



    But, I understand that from a marketing perspective it's better to get a unified Aqua face "out there" and under the noses of new prospects. Were we all running our own looks and feels it might not wow them in an identical manner.



    But still...let's hope for more customization sometime in the next, what 10 years??



    I don't like the "arbitrariness" of the GUI that Linux/et al window managers suggest, nor do I like the inconsistency that total customization provides - BUT - considering we are not still in the old days of "plunk down on any old Mac laying around and start working" but instead we are in the days of "have the other user log out and you can log into your own environment - custom or stock" I suppose the latter is irrelevant.



    Consistency of GUI need only be the default, not the norm. Right now we have the opposite - seemingly ignoring the true power of multi user environments. Right now it's merely a form of housekeeping, separate the clutter into the right lock-boxes. Rather, it could be that each user's space is like their apartment - a reflection of individuality.



    What could be more "Mac" than that? We aren't quite there yet aside from hacking.
  • Reply 8 of 36
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    If I may be so bold, I don't think that's it at all.



    Window managers differ in their feature sets (virtual desktops, tiling, etc), and many people have One True Windowing Manager that they like. I used to be a tvwm nut.



    *On top of that*, there are look and feel issues, such as KDE, Gnome, Motif, etc, that handle elements of the GUI more directly, such as which side of a window scrollbars will be on, etc.



    *THEN* you get to the usual theming, which takes care of color sets, icons, etc, etc, etc.



    There's some overlap between the last two, and some GUIs allow for fairly deep theming, but for the most part, it's a decent distinction.





    Aqua is the look and feel (middle layer) and the theme (top layer).



    WindowServer is the bottom layer, the guts.





    Running X11 as a replacement for WindowServer means that you can't run *any* normal MacOS X apps... they don't know about X11. But it means you can run whatever desktop environment you want, and roll your own from scratch.



    At which point Brad had a very good question: why use a Mac? If you can't run the Mac apps, there are cheaper X11 based solutions out there. Heck, go grab Darwin for x86, and that + X11 will get you something equivalent on cheaper hardware.



    If you want to run MacOS X apps, you're going to be using the WindowServer. Some theming tools exist for altering Aqua, but it only goes so deep.



    Brad can point you to them.
  • Reply 9 of 36
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Kickaha,



    Yes I was only speaking of the themeing aspect. Of course a GUI is more than looks. But apart from myriad individual shareware and hacks we can't really depart from the normal OS behaviours (although there is a wealth of things to play with, it's just quite not as "cohesive" or "packaged" as the Linux/X-11 window manager collections).



    What we yearn for I think are plentiful, quality official UI variations (be it theme level or deeper) in conjunction with sane, elegant public APIs for developing themes/new UIs.



    The sordidness and uncertainty (of 3rd parties) involved in making Mac OS X look different today is not something most users want to play with (the types that are afraid something will break).
  • Reply 10 of 36
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by johnq

    Kickaha,



    Yes I was only speaking of the themeing aspect. Of course a GUI is more than looks. But apart from myriad individual shareware and hacks we can't really depart from the normal OS behaviours (although there is a wealth of things to play with, it's just quite not as "cohesive" or "packaged" as the Linux/X-11 window manager collections).








    X11... cohesive? packaged? Um...



    Quote:

    What we yearn for I think are plentiful, quality official UI variations (be it theme level or deeper) in conjunction with sane, elegant public APIs for developing themes/new UIs.



    The sordidness and uncertainty (of 3rd parties) involved in making Mac OS X look different today is not something most users want to play with (the types that are afraid something will break).




    It is my humble opinion that sane elegant APIs are the product of tight control. And tight control is something that does not lend itself to customization to the degree that many people think is 'necessary'. Usually, 'necessary' customization just means 'make it like I'm used to in my old system'. \
  • Reply 11 of 36
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Brad

    Like Kickaha, I'm very curious about your comments. What exactly do you find so problematic about Aqua?



    I can't put my finger on it exactly. I think some of it is a "not what I'm used to" issue. I've been a happy Motif bigot/geek/user/whatever for the last.. uh.. 13 years? When CDE rolled along, I looked at it as an interesting extension to Motif and its window manager. That was an easy adoption to make.



    None of the other UIs I've used have really worked for me. I can't stand the various incarnations of Windblows UIs. All of the various flavors of desktops for Linux (KDE, GNOME, et al) are too feature-rich, and yet they look like crud.



    In the end, I'll be the good soldier and "adapt and overcome." However, I was curious to see if anyone's even tried to replace Aqua with something else, or, if it's even possible. According to http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/x11/ .. part of the way down the page,
    Quote:

    X11 and Aqua side by side

    Native Aqua and X11 applications run side by side on the Mac OS X desktop. You can cut and paste between X11 and Aqua windows. You can minimize X11 windows to the Dock ? even with the ?Genie Effect.? You use the Aqua window controls to close, minimize and zoom X11 windows. And of course, each X11 window comes with its own carefully rendered drop shadow. Experts may choose to replace the native Aqua window manager with their own familiar, standard X Window Manager.



    jas
  • Reply 12 of 36
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Yup.



    But then you're running only X11 apps, and may as well use a cheaper hardware box. \



    If you can find specific UI things you have issues with, maybe we can recommend specific workarounds or fixes.
  • Reply 13 of 36
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    But then you're running only X11 apps, and may as well use a cheaper hardware box.



    Ah ha. The marketeers get me again. OK, that point wasn't made very clear on Apple's site. My mistake; it's clearly NOT what I'm after.



    Quote:

    If you can find specific UI things you have issues with, maybe we can recommend specific workarounds or fixes.



    Bear in mind I don't have a Mac in front of me, but...



    An MWM-ism I'm absolutely in love with: menus on the background (root window.) If I click either of the 3 mouse buttons anywhere on the background, I get one of three menus which I can configure with a simple text file (.mwmrc, or dtwmrc.) Said menus can launch apps, reorder windows, refresh the display, quit the window manager, etc. Any function the window manger has at its disposal is programmable into the 3 menus. None of the present-day GUIs that I've played with have something like that. Is it configurable in Aqua?



    CDE (and now other X-based desktops) offers "Workspaces" that are a simple button click away. Each is its own screen, has its own background, but shares the window manager. Client windows are movable between the workspaces through MWM (actually CDE) functions. So for instance I have a workspace where I do all my work. Another where I surf (multiple WEB browsers open.) Another where my various mail clients are open. Still a 4th where I have various music clients. Is that possible with Aqua?



    jas
  • Reply 14 of 36
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by jasonvp

    An MWM-ism I'm absolutely in love with: menus on the background (root window.) If I click either of the 3 mouse buttons anywhere on the background, I get one of three menus which I can configure with a simple text file (.mwmrc, or dtwmrc.) Said menus can launch apps, reorder windows, refresh the display, quit the window manager, etc. Any function the window manger has at its disposal is programmable into the 3 menus. None of the present-day GUIs that I've played with have something like that. Is it configurable in Aqua?



    Somewhat. You can right-click (ctrl-click) on the Desktop and have a contextual menu pop up... and you can add contextual menu plugins. If you have a plugin that emulates what you're looking for... actually, that wouldn't be that hard. A simple plugin that provides the same functionality as the Script Menu would let you plop any scripts (shell, AppleScript, etc) into the Scripts folder, and they'd be accessible with a ctrl-click on the Desktop.



    Anyone know of such a beast?



    Quote:

    CDE (and now other X-based desktops) offers "Workspaces" that are a simple button click away. Each is its own screen, has its own background, but shares the window manager. Client windows are movable between the workspaces through MWM (actually CDE) functions. So for instance I have a workspace where I do all my work. Another where I surf (multiple WEB browsers open.) Another where my various mail clients are open. Still a 4th where I have various music clients. Is that possible with Aqua?



    CodeTek Virtual Desktop.



    I use it everyday specifically because I missed tvwm's virtual desktops. Two thumbs up.
  • Reply 15 of 36
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    There is also "Desktop Manager"



    It's quite good, perhaps better than CodeTek Virtual Desktop in many ways (but yes, deficient in other ways!).



    It is a beta but definitely worth a download and test run. It is promising. Feels snappier than CodeTek Virtual Desktop and has really nice transitions too.



    It lacks custom desktop images for each space though which definitely sucks. But it is beta after all...so there's hope.
  • Reply 16 of 36
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    A simple plugin that provides the same functionality as the Script Menu would let you plop any scripts (shell, AppleScript, etc) into the Scripts folder, and they'd be accessible with a ctrl-click on the Desktop.



    Hm, ok. Sounds somewhat promising, but at the same time not precisely what I'm after. My goal is to have my list of applications readily available wherever there's a piece of background screen available. I realize I'm sort of unique in this aspect, but I loathe and despise digging through icons to find the application I'm looking for. I'd rather just click on the background, find the choice in the menu, and go. And since I have 3 mouse buttons (with X... and I'd surely have them with a Mac..) I have 3 different menus I can call up.



    Here's a quick shot of what I'm talking about, while I'm writing this note :-) (careful, it's full 1920x1440 res)



    http://www.lateapex.net/sshot.jpg



    Quote:

    CodeTek Virtual Desktop.



    Looks interesting, thanks for the pointer!



    jas
  • Reply 17 of 36
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by jasonvp

    Hm, ok. Sounds somewhat promising, but at the same time not precisely what I'm after. My goal is to have my list of applications readily available wherever there's a piece of background screen available. I realize I'm sort of unique in this aspect, but I loathe and despise digging through icons to find the application I'm looking for.



    If you put a folder in the Dock, you can context-click on it and navigate through the contents in a menu. So, you can throw your /Applications folder in the Dock, and you can launch any of your (OS X) applications simply by clicking on a widget that's always visible. I did that myself, because I like having everything available at any time too. I also put my Desktop folder in the Dock, so that I can get at anything on my desktop without having to move anything out of the way.



    As for multiple desktops, you can simulate this using multiple user accounts and Fast User Switching, with at least some success. It's not quite the same, but it doesn't require any third party beta software either.
  • Reply 18 of 36
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by jasonvp

    Hm, ok. Sounds somewhat promising, but at the same time not precisely what I'm after. My goal is to have my list of applications readily available wherever there's a piece of background screen available. I realize I'm sort of unique in this aspect, but I loathe and despise digging through icons to find the application I'm looking for. I'd rather just click on the background, find the choice in the menu, and go. And since I have 3 mouse buttons (with X... and I'd surely have them with a Mac..) I have 3 different menus I can call up.



    Here's a quick shot of what I'm talking about, while I'm writing this note :-) (careful, it's full 1920x1440 res)



    http://www.lateapex.net/sshot.jpg




    Seems familiar somehow... almost on the tip of my tongue... can't quite get it...



    oh yeah.



    The Dock. A list of applications that you can set the order of, always available even when there's no desktop visible. No digging needed - you can set this list to be the same order as you'd have a textual list if you'd like, and

    plop it on the side of the screen with Apple Menu -> Dock -> Position on Left/Right.



    Yeah, yeah, not exactly the same, but a possible substitute for now?



    A couple of contextual plugins that may do what you want:



    http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14164



    http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/18505
  • Reply 19 of 36
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    If you put a folder in the Dock, you can context-click on it and navigate through the contents in a menu. So, you can throw your /Applications folder in the Dock, and you can launch any of your (OS X) applications simply by clicking on a widget that's always visible. I did that myself, because I like having everything available at any time too. I also put my Desktop folder in the Dock, so that I can get at anything on my desktop without having to move anything out of the way.



    Yeah, but then you're tied to the Dock location. I think the contextual menus will give him more of what he wants.



    Quote:

    As for multiple desktops, you can simulate this using multiple user accounts and Fast User Switching, with at least some success. It's not quite the same, but it doesn't require any third party beta software either.



    CVD isn''t beta. :P



  • Reply 20 of 36
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Yeah, but then you're tied to the Dock location. I think the contextual menus will give him more of what he wants.



    I figured that, but on the other hand using the Dock will actually get him familiar with OS X's native capabilities, before he goes to the trouble of assembling some sort of Frankenstein UI.



    Once you get used to it, the Dock rules.
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