Graphics video cards - no choice, tough luck
Anyone else out there getting really tired of the "no choice" problem when wanting to upgrade your video card? With all the choices of new graphics cards from ATI and nVidia that keep popping up ever couple of months, we are still stuck with really only 1 or 2 choices should we dare want to upgrade our stock PM G4. It's been ages since ATI released the Radeon 9600 and we still can't get one retail for the G4's! And, I'm not convinced it's ATI's or nVidia's decision to not release new cards for the Mac. How much fear has Jobs put on these two companies? With Apple trying to grow its marketshare, the lack of freedom for the upgradability of video cards certainly does put a damper on things even more so if you are a gamer.
Comments
With the Wintel world, ATI and nVidia can easily recoup these expenditures. But because the Macintosh world is so polarized and small, it is not cost-effective to spend money on products that may not sell.
It's important to remember these facts the next time someone tells you that, "Apple's market share is not important."
Regards,
-Antithesis
And if you get a deal with Apple you can be sure there won't be any competitors. Every Mac shipping, will be shipping with your, slightly overpriced, card.
Originally posted by sls
Every Mac shipping, will be shipping with your, slightly overpriced, card.
Actually, the original poster is not talking about OEM graphics cards that ship with new Macintoshes.
S/he is talking about upgrading a older Macintosh with a newer, RETAIL graphics card from ATI or nVidia.
Which, by the way, is about TWICE the price of a comparable card from the SAME vendor on the Wintel side.
-Antithesis
Originally posted by Antithesis
Actually, the original poster is not talking about OEM graphics cards that ship with new Macintoshes.
S/he is talking about upgrading a older Macintosh with a newer, RETAIL graphics card from ATI or nVidia.
Which, by the way, is about TWICE the price of a comparable card from the SAME vendor on the Wintel side.
-Antithesis
Ok
But I don't see why ATI and nVidia are holding back development for Mac. And I didn't know that not all of the OEM graphics cards are available as retail cards. bad...
Originally posted by sls
You don't sell in % but i units. Apple's marketshare is 1,7%, but how large is the market? E.g. 1,7% of 100 000 000 is not that bad.
And if you get a deal with Apple you can be sure there won't be any competitors. Every Mac shipping, will be shipping with your, slightly overpriced, card.
It used to be that hardware was slightly different but in today's macs, that's no longer the case. Only software/firmware differs between the Mac and PC video cards. If people can make money selling processor upgrades and whatever else for Macs, I don't see how ATI or nVidia couldn't make moeny selling retail cards for Macs. I'm convinced Apple/Jobs is the problem. Does Apple think people will buy a new computer just because they can't upgrade their video card?
As a Maya user I obviously need an Nvidia solution because ATI has no cards that perform well at all in Maya.
WWDC is the dead line for Apple and I because I've held off on buying a PC even though not buying one is affecting my productivity.
Apple needs Nvidia options, and should offer an NVIDIA Quadro FX 3000, or 3000G, as it's highest end BTO option for pro users willing to spend $1000+ on a video card such as my self, but also offer another highend Nvidia card that will suffice for those who can't spend that much. The GeForce FX 5950 Ultra, and/or GeForce FX 5900 Ultra are both better than ATI's latest in gaming IMHO, and also work well in Maya for those who need it. The question here is: Is Apple interested in making a configurable 3D workstation?
[NOTE] : ID software has also recommended the GeForce FX series for use with DOOM 3 for those who care.
I'm starting to doubt Apple will ever offer a configuration suitable for highend 3D work. They are close to having suitable workstation options now, but close isn't going to work after WWDC. I'm buying either a Mac, or a BOXX. The BOXX has all the options I need already. (which is basically a Quadro FX 3000, and dual 3GHz processors) I've just been holding out for Apple to come through.
It's possible something is coming, but there is no real sign of it. We know Pixar has been readying Renderman server for use with Mac's forever it seems, and Maya 6 shouldn't be too far down the road. If all that gets released, and Apple does not offer the one true highend Maya capable card (Quadro FX 3000) it's all going to be for nothing, because your video card is at the heart of your system in 3D, and I wont be buying a Mac that lags that far behind in performance vs the BOXX I already configured, and priced.
If you think I've driven this topic astray I actually haven't. These are all reasons why Apple could, and should have better graphics options by WWDC, but who knows.
It still probably won't help people looking for options in older PowerMacs because G5 cards are probably specifically engineered for use with the G5 which will leave you with no option to buy an equal card for an older PowerMac from the Apple store. But Apple could probably sell cards from the Apple store for use with older G5's.
Basically your only option as I see it for older G4's is for ATI to come through with Mac cards as they have in the past.
I know nVidia doesn't make any video cards but just provides the chips yet nVidia could convince some company like Asus or other to make retail cards for the Macs. After all, it's only software and the margins, as we all know too well, are much much better than on the Wintel side. ATI is another matter as they do make complete cards. Ever wonder why there is no ATI All in Wonder for the Mac. It's not ATI that's holding back.
Originally posted by DVD_Junkie
I know nVidia doesn't make any video cards but just provides the chips yet nVidia could convince some company like Asus or other to make retail cards for the Macs. After all, it's only software and the margins, as we all know too well, are much much better than on the Wintel side. ATI is another matter as they do make complete cards. Ever wonder why there is no ATI All in Wonder for the Mac. It's not ATI that's holding back.
3rd party vendors would loose big heavy handed ca$h developing cards to be Mac specific. We are only talking about 3% of the market, and what % of that 3% is going to buy the cards? They would be spending valuable R&D time that they could be using on the next cards for the other 90+% where there real sales are. Nvidia has no business asking for that from them.
If Apple were to lay down a supplemental amount for R&D, to a company to cover their projected losses for the time it took to develop Mac versions along side of their next graphics revisions of PC cards that would be insanely cool.
Apple could find someone who makes both Quadro FX 3000, and GeForce FX cards, and have a limited partnership. That would be the ideal situation because anything else while Apple 's market share % is still as low as it is would be totally inconceivable to a 3rd party graphics vendor.
You also have to consider how the boards are fabricated, and production facilities. Can their existing set up be used to develop for the Mac, and will it slow the process of their existing business?
But, your also talking about cards for older Mac's which would be against the grain of progress for Apple because if they were to do such a thing they would need it for new G5 cards more than anything. They need their new computers to have more attractive options so they can sell more of them.
If such a thing were to happen it could lay the groundwork for making after-market upgrades in the future, but it would be a while.
Originally posted by onlooker
3rd party vendors would loose big heavy handed ca$h developing cards to be Mac specific. We are only talking about 3% of the market, and what % of that 3% is going to buy the cards? They would be spending valuable R&D time that they could be using on the next cards for the other 90+% where there real sales are. Nvidia has no business asking for that from them.
If Apple were to lay down a supplemental amount for R&D, to a company to cover their projected losses for the time it took to develop Mac versions along side of their next graphics revisions of PC cards that would be insanely cool.
Apple could find someone who makes both Quadro FX 3000, and GeForce FX cards, and have a limited partnership. That would be the ideal situation because anything else while Apple 's market share % is still as low as it is would be totally inconceivable to a 3rd party graphics vendor.
You also have to consider how the boards are fabricated, and production facilities. Can their existing set up be used to develop for the Mac, and will it slow the process of their existing business?
But, your also talking about cards for older Mac's which would be against the grain of progress for Apple because if they were to do such a thing they would need it for new G5 cards more than anything. They need their new computers to have more attractive options so they can sell more of them.
If such a thing were to happen it could lay the groundwork for making after-market upgrades in the future, but it would be a while.
What R&D? I have read countless times of people buying retail PC cards, and flashing them with mac bios and they run fine. So it seems that all a PC vender would need to do is flash a card with a Mac BIOS instead of a PC one, and sell it. No need to build a different board, or included anythign different at all. Sure, maybe some of the hgher end cards can't just be flashed, they might also require some drivers, but that is still not goign to be that much R&D compared to havign to develop a new board, etc...
Originally posted by kupan787
What R&D? I have read countless times of people buying retail PC cards, and flashing them with mac bios and they run fine. So it seems that all a PC vender would need to do is flash a card with a Mac BIOS instead of a PC one, and sell it. No need to build a different board, or included anythign different at all. Sure, maybe some of the hgher end cards can't just be flashed, they might also require some drivers, but that is still not goign to be that much R&D compared to havign to develop a new board, etc...
Actually, the GeForce3 was the last of the "flashable" PC cards, as far as I'm aware. And even THAT flashing trick required a VERY specific version of the GeForce chipset.
Second, all of that "driver" and "firmware" stuff you're talking about is 100% different on a Macintosh than it is on a Wintel machine. Just writing those drivers takes a good amount of time. Then you have to TEST them on a variety of machines--taking yet MORE time and money. Then, there's the fact that you're not using the identical card in the Wintel version as you are in the Macintosh version. That means a different assembly line and more unique parts. Which, by the way, have to be designed to fit on the card.
All of which adds up to $$$ that you MAY not be able to regain because of lackluster Macintosh sales.
-Antithesis
Originally posted by kupan787
What R&D? I have read countless times of people buying retail PC cards, and flashing them with mac bios and they run fine. So it seems that all a PC vender would need to do is flash a card with a Mac BIOS instead of a PC one, and sell it. No need to build a different board, or included anythign different at all. Sure, maybe some of the hgher end cards can't just be flashed, they might also require some drivers, but that is still not goign to be that much R&D compared to havign to develop a new board, etc...
I've never heard that so I have to question how many "countless" times this truly is happening on todays Mac's, but If it works out fine you can do it. I'm not going to spend $1000.00+ on a Quadro FX 3000, or even $400.00+ on a GeForce FX 5950 Ultra only to ruin it.
You say flashing works. Apple surely can afford to buy every card made flash it, write drivers to see if it works, and test it to see if it's equivalent to how the card performs with all the applications on the PC side. Is that an acceptable amount of R&D for you? If they get extremely lucky and it turns out they get the cards we need working; Great! But they could simply pay someone who makes fantastic performing Nvidia PC cards to make some cards for us. It seems like a lot less hassle. Other than the drivers. I would prefer Apple, or Nvidia ported the drivers.
Antithesis posted while I was writing but I also want to emphasize what he wrote because it's all relevant.
Originally posted by Antithesis
Actually, the GeForce3 was the last of the "flashable" PC cards, as far as I'm aware. And even THAT flashing trick required a VERY specific version of the GeForce chipset.
Second, all of that "driver" and "firmware" stuff you're talking about is 100% different on a Macintosh than it is on a Wintel machine. Just writing those drivers takes a good amount of time. Then you have to TEST them on a variety of machines--taking yet MORE time and money. Then, there's the fact that you're not using the identical card in the Wintel version as you are in the Macintosh version. That means a different assembly line and more unique parts. Which, by the way, have to be designed to fit on the card.
All of which adds up to $$$ that you MAY not be able to regain because of lackluster Macintosh sales.
-Antithesis
Why is a physical card made for a Wintell PC AGP slot so much different then one made for a Mac AGP slot?
Is the motherboard, main bus, Memory type and speed, etc., etc., that much a factor and different between PCs and Macs these days? It seems to me like you can pick up a card made for a PC (as long as it the right AGP speed) and pop it on in pretty much any PC you own, regardless of motherboard, CPU, Bios, memory, etc, etc.
Why not some small company work on Drivers for the Mac or why not a company like ATI with lots of Mac Cards and driver tech, just sell more of it's cards to the Mac community?
Originally posted by tink
In the tradition of "no question is a stupid question?"
Why is a physical card made for a Wintell PC AGP slot so much different then one made for a Mac AGP slot?
Is the motherboard, main bus, Memory type and speed, etc., etc., that much a factor and different between PCs and Macs these days? It seems to me like you can pick up a card made for a PC (as long as it the right AGP speed) and pop it on in pretty much any PC you own, regardless of motherboard, CPU, Bios, memory, etc, etc.
Why not some small company work on Drivers for the Mac or why not a company like ATI with lots of Mac Cards and driver tech, just sell more of it's cards to the Mac community?
I'm no expert, but the simple answer is: video cards are often modified (hardware-wise) to suit a specific platform.
The text BELOW is from the "xlr8yourmacintosh" website. It talks about the complexities in flashing a (very old and now outdated) VooDoo3 graphics card. But the same principles still apply.
"One More Time - PC Video Cards in a Mac: Here's the latest in what seems to be a never-ending quest to use PC video cards in a Mac (only the 3Dfx Voodoo cards universally work), a reader wrote asking if it was possible to run the PC Imagine 128S2 card in a Mac (with software). I said no, probably not and have commented in the forums and here in the past on the Mac vs. PC PCI differences (big Endian vs little Endian design). As a check I asked the mfr. of the card (Number Nine) if the PC Imagine 128S2 could be used in the Mac - here is their response:
" No. The Imagine 128 Series 2 is not the same for both PC and Mac. They have different DACs for converting Intel vrs Mac byte order. It's called the Big Endian / Little Endian effect. This is specifically why we did it this way to get the max power out of the total system. The boards also have different connectors and a very different BIOS. The Mac has no need for VGA.
While it may work on some products, I wouldn't [recommend it]. We went thru a period where people were buying one and asking for the software panel. We clearly note on the packaging what environments we support. "
Although one user posted in the forum he flashed a Millennium II PC version to a Mac OK, several others have posted that they could not. "
Regards,
-Antithesis
b) R&D: ATI and nvidia develop all the software for their cards. When you get some manufacturer branded drivers it is often just the reference drivers rehashed. Some manufacturers bundle extra functionality with their drivers ( eg: Asus ). But they are often way behind in releases, so users end up going with reference drivers anyway. Very few manufacturers design their own cards ( which may need custom drivers ). Now that the video chips are totally integrated there is not much value to add beyond the reference design.
The problem is this - a given card can be mac or pc ( there may be a way to put both roms on the card, but Ive not heard of it ). So when you manufacture a card you have to commit to one market, and package it appropriately ( making a user flash their card is too much to ask ). The risk is that you have to package a certain number of cards for the mac ( say 10000 ), and users will expect them to be the same price as the PC, but sales are slower for Macs, and all the cards probably wont sell anyway. Even if you thought they would all sell you still need a distribution channel. PC manufacturers dont have access to Apple Stores, or experience with Mac catalogue resellers.
The only way you will see more cards come to the Mac is if a reseller buys them from a manufacturer. Mac Wharehouse could, or CompUSA ( they already do their own brand cards ), or Apple.
Apple dont manufacture their own cards anyway. Their nvidia cards come from one of the big PC manufacturers ( gainward ? ). The fact that that manufacturer doesnt think they can sell cards directly is very telling.
There are two underlying issues in the mac market, one is market share, the other is the lack of mac manufacturers.
Without more market share the effort just isnt worth the reward ( what percentage of Mac users want to/can upgrade their video cards ? ).
With more manufacturers it is very likely that we would see macs for sale in the traditional pc distribution channel, ie: at the funny computer shop on the corner, and that manufacturers could penetrate into this market where they know what is going on.
I can see only _ONE_ potential manufacturer. Hercules. It will take a concerted effort to get them to support Mac, Ive already sent them email. But they could be the dominant in 3rd party add ons for the mac, if we can convince them that it is worthwhile.
[LATE BREAKING NEWS]
Hercules has left the 3d card and monitor market due to "very weak gross margins". If you cant make it in the PC market I cant see anyone trying to make it in the mac market.
Originally posted by tak1108
Another option is to get Alias|Wavefront to improve Maya performance on ATI cards.
(It's just Alias now.) As I understand it that's already happened, but it's two way street. Maya's API, and system has a set of rules to adhere by just like anything else, and Nvidia takes the information, provides a card that offers the whole complete solution. ATI does not. Alias does it's best to get the best possible results from what ATI has to offer, but they offer nothing specifically tailored to Maya, so in essence what ATI provides is insufficient to run Maya. And that's it.