Violation of "Retarded Post" sticky in AO by new sticky in AO
The role of moderator seems to have flown out the window, at least in AO. I'm sick of the draconian crap that has been building up over the last few days.
We have posting guidelines. It's not time to side step the meaning of these guidelines, which are appropriately lenient. No mod or admin here actually owns the appleinsider domain or server, or has any appropriate authoritative power over these elements. We're all bound by the same guidelines, and it's not appropriate to modify them on a whim.
Dicussions will get heated at times. That's understood. I think we deserve the right to question ideas and characters that breed such ideas, since both are linked inherently. The key here is to understand the difference between an inert jab and excessive, baseless badmouthing. Any "zero-tolerance" policy is an implement for power-tripping goons. Forgiveness, leniency, and resilience will go further for promoting good conduct than will threats.
If you can't take a few empty insults from an internet forum from time to time, you have a lot more to worry about than what the guy said about your state.
We have posting guidelines. It's not time to side step the meaning of these guidelines, which are appropriately lenient. No mod or admin here actually owns the appleinsider domain or server, or has any appropriate authoritative power over these elements. We're all bound by the same guidelines, and it's not appropriate to modify them on a whim.
Dicussions will get heated at times. That's understood. I think we deserve the right to question ideas and characters that breed such ideas, since both are linked inherently. The key here is to understand the difference between an inert jab and excessive, baseless badmouthing. Any "zero-tolerance" policy is an implement for power-tripping goons. Forgiveness, leniency, and resilience will go further for promoting good conduct than will threats.
If you can't take a few empty insults from an internet forum from time to time, you have a lot more to worry about than what the guy said about your state.
Comments
1. The right (if you are an American citizen) to free speech as guaranteed by the 1st amendment to the U.S. Constitution does not apply when posting at this message board. Posters are allowed a great deal of flexibility in their posts, but be respectful of other members and the guidelines.
3. All comments about a moderator or an administrator should be directed to the moderator or an administrator (if the member does not feel comfortable dealing directly with the moderator) using private messaging or via e-mail.
4. Excessive ad-hominem attacks of forum members will not be tolerated. We understand that things get heated, but it helps to maintain a modicum of respect for the membership. Attack ideas, not people. Be open-minded and try to help foster meaningful discussion (yes, meaningful discussion is possible if everyone respects each other).
AppleOutsider is not a forum to spew vitriol against people, organizations, or theologies. AppleOutsider is for serious discussions; so, the moderators and administrators expect a level of maturity from all members at all times
Never post while angry
The people who are moderators and administrators at AppleInsider did not get their roles by sheer chance. We each were chosen for our task by the previous management. Whether we "own" AppleInsider does not matter. We are the ones who make and enforce the rules. You don't tell us otherwise; only the folks that do own AppleInsider can and so far they haven't complained.
Also, regardless of who owns what, no one here is modifying the guidelines "on a whim" as you say. The poor conduct has been taken note by several moderators and has been discussed heavily in private messages between us and members and in the moderators forum.
AppleOutsider has gradually been going sour again for a while. People are getting lax and careless about what they say. People are forgetting the rules; this is partly our fault for not enforcing them all of the time. AppleOutsider is *not* a free-for-all zone where anything goes. Some people may need a strong reminder of that. A temporary ban will do that job very well and not cause anyone else any problems.
Keep in mind that AppleOutsider is not the "heart" of AppleInsider. It was only created to branch off the political discussions from General Discussion. If need be, AppleOutsider can and will be completely shut down and this site will return to *only* discussing computer and technology related subjects.
If you wish to continue participating at AppleInsider (AppleOutsider in particular), you and everyone else need raise the maturity level a good notch. Clean up the language and lose the insults. They are completely unnecessary and contribute nothing but hate and animosity to the discussions.
Regards,
Brad
AO is a place of differences and this is a good thing. We just try to keep it somewhat civil. AO welcomes the opinion of all, we just ask for a minimum basic level of respect and maturity.
Sure there will be heated debates in the mix and this is to be expected. What will not go over well is blanket statements of bigotry.
Fellowship
I have *tried* to refrain from being that way in AO. If I have been, I apologize right now. I've always tried to keep an open mind and respect everyone in there, even though I may whole-heartedly disagree with some of their stances.
Maybe now I'll feel free to venture back into threads with the words Iraq, Bush, Kerry, WMD, U.N., GOP, Dems, or gay in the title.
Maybe.
Keep in mind that AppleOutsider is not the "heart" of AppleInsider. It was only created to branch off the political discussions from General Discussion. If need be, AppleOutsider can and will be completely shut down and this site will return to *only* discussing computer and technology related subjects.
Then end it or let it be the political cross fire that it is in certain threads.
Notice the use of "Excessive" in the posting guidlines, I've read them too. Occaisional jabs should be fine. I could also attack your ideas, which seems to be OK, and then map them to your character. I could say, for example, "Based on the posts I've read, I don't think I'd like to meet Brad. He comes across as a typical, downtrodden geek with a side order of pseudo-nihilism." Character and ideas are usually linked. If they're not, then throw away 3000 years of philosophy.
Is that an "ad hominem" attack? It is directed "to the man." But it's also much more than making empty claims or threats, which, incidentally, are what we've seen in response to relatively benign personal opinions of other members from you and Fellows.
Making fun of the truck driving mentality, for example, and not even a person specifically, is not even in the gray area. It's a clear cut opinion that damns a clear cut ethos. It is not ad hominem. No sooner can you ban for that than can you ban me for saying "Liberal Democrats so rarely understand basic economics that asking them to debate on such topics is like arguing calculus with kids in junior high." And that kind of post has been the core of AO discussion for a long, long time. No sooner can you ban for that than can you ban for: "Worshippers of the devil are terribly maligned individuals, and we should actively minimize the possibility of people being lead astray to this belief." I think we're all against worshipping the devil, but again, it could be perceived as an ad hominem attack.
If you're going to end this kind of banter, you really need to go further and eliminate AO. It's invariable that differing opinions will clash. Even the most professional debaters take jabs at their opponents. And if you're going to hold a zero-tolerance policy for opinion condemnation, you must hold all opinions on the same ground of validity. Replace "Worshipping the devil" with "Islamist Extremists." I'm attacking people. You'll have to ban me for that.
Lastly, I think 1st ammendment rights actually do hold. This is a public forum, and I bet I can find you a precedent where 1st ammendment holds. Don't think for a second that this forum is private: It's accessible by anyone on the internet. While I'm not pushing this point, I'll hunt down a precedent for you if you really want.
Oh, and also find me a precedent that gives the go-ahead for threatening another person with fighting words.
And there's got to be a precedent that says that private property owners MUST allow people on their property whether they want them there or not.
Get going on that, will ya'?
Originally posted by CosmoNut
While you're at it, find me a precedent that says burning a cross on someone else's private property is okay -- or public property for that matter.
Oh, and also find me a precedent that gives the go-ahead for threatening another person with fighting words.
And there's got to be a precedent that says that private property owners MUST allow people on their property whether they want them there or not.
Get going on that, will ya'?
This is a public space, not a private space. The data on macnn's servers is available on the internet, a public space. Intranets and sites protected with passwords are not public space. AI is neither. If you want to talk about freedom-of-speech laws, realize that instigating a fight is not against the law. Libel can be, but that's a pretty specific subset, and it doesn't really apply since insults on AI are not intended to affect the outcomes of one's professional life.
Burning a US flag is specifically against the law. I think burning a cross follows from that. These are special purpose laws. Unauthorized trespass on private property is against the law too, but AI invites the public. The 1st amendment covers a lot of ground.
Don't be so condescending. I'm not an idiot. I wouldn't launch into such a tirade unless I was pretty damn sure I was correct. I also have a general respect for the well being of others, and I'm trying to prove a point rather than promote incendiary behavior.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
This is a public space, not a private space.
This is a private space to which the public is invited. Think of it as a shopping mall. You are free to roam around a shopping mall all you want, but if you start disturbing the other shoppers and refuse to follow management's rules, they kick you out. They have the right to do that...
...both at a shopping mall and here.
Actually, most of the internet is a network of private servers that those organizations allow you to access. Just because they don't password protect them doesn't make them "public." You have the occasional non-profit or government agencies hosting sites, but even then it doesn't mean that you can say or do whatever you want.
Fighting IS against the law if your actions are disturbing the peace of those around you. Yes, someone may decide not to press charges, but that's when normal legal procedures are followed. Those don't necessarily apply here.
You can't just let your words and actions run rampant here, and you didn't prove any points. As a "normal user" here, I suggest that you just be careful in AO and everywhere else because you could bite yourself in the butt if you're not.
And I apologize for being condescending.
Good job.
g
Not two days ago we get this from Fellows:
Let it be known that in future if condescending and derogatory generalizations are made about Texas, Truck driving Texans, French, or any nationality or state you WILL be banned for at least a week.
There has already been one suspension this week stemming from a similar offence by a member.
Keep your name calling and bigotry to yourself rather than spew it over the boads here at AI.
Otherwise we will have no hesitation in suspending any member's account if this is violated.
If you have any questions PM me or any other mod. / admin. This thread will now resume to the original subject.
Now, in a thread I've been participating in we get a post:
An interesting possible series of propositions I just formulated in my head is that poor people, in general, are obese because they are lazy. Inactivity is a major cause of obesity. Which also explains why they are poor. In that case, I could deduce that minorities in America are lazy.
And later, by a different poster:
MInorities aren't lazy. Poor people are lazy.
I PMed Fellows about the first, he admonished us both to "share the love, not war".
Later BuonRotto weighed in with:
Let's drop the dumb race and obesity thing if everyone's going to get their panties in a bunch about it. If you have a complaint about a post, please report it to the mods rather than call attention to it in the thread. I took the comments by Ganondorf to be facetious if off-color (no pun intended), but we are a bit high-strung here in the AO, and one's tone in the text doesn't always get to the audience so clearly.
Sooo, if I'm following this correctly, remarks about Texas and the French (even offhand one-liners) are so fraught you can get banned on the spot, but slurring minorites and poor people should be regarded as misperceived humor. Oh, and attempting to refute the reasoning that leads to "Minorities are lazy" is "getting my panties in a wad" and evidence that I'm "high-strung".
I mean, really, what am I to make of this? That I need to be very careful what I say about, say, Canadians, but that something on the order of "Man, I can't stand the way Mexicans smell, they reek," or "My understanding is that Asian men have really tiny penises" is just fine? I mean if called on it I can always say I was being "facetious".
I understand that mods are people and we can't expect total evenhandedness or consistancy, but the examples I've sited seem to be coming from different planets, not different people.
I just can't believe "Minorities are lazy" and "Poor people are lazy" doesn't cross a line that "stupid truck drivers in Texas" does.
Unless the thinking is that are few if any "poor people" and "minorities" on these boards so why bother defending them?
Originally posted by addabox
I PMed Fellows about the first, he admonished us both to "share the love, not war".
Strange I did not receive a PM from you in my PM's
I try to respond to all PM's but I simply did not receive one from you.
I did edit what was said in the original post of concern and in your reply to that post I edited the offending wording when this broke out in the thread.
I did leave a post to explain my doings. I said that we can state facts and opinions but let's be careful how we go about it. I agree there is no room for any racial slurs in a negative light. I am very equal handed in my dislike for this kind of thing. With the Texas Truck comment I did suggest a temporary ban for -Alliance- but later on I feel I was the one who over-reacted to this whole thing and did express my reflection of the whole thing to -Alliance-
I think we do want AO to be a civil place without having to issue temp bans on so many people. We wish for people to conduct themselves as best they can.
With Respect,
Fellows
If you can't take a few empty insults from an internet forum from time to time, you have a lot more to worry about than what the guy said about your state.
This is the stupidest, most ****ing retarded statement I read from you people that whine when we piss on your cake. We can take the insults. It's not like brad, the other staff, members, and I have little cry fests on iChat over what some asshat homotron said in AppleOutsider. Usually, I drop brad a line and tell him how much of a bloody shithole that forum has become. Others do too. I'm not really offended by it, but AI is something I do care about, and when you bastards start spewing the crap that has been spewing in AppleOutsider since FSC days, it just makes me disappointed.
I am disappointed that you people cannot have civil discussions that don't involve trying to push someone's buttons. Then, when you do push their button hard enough, you tell them if they can't take insults from an internet messageboard that they have issues.
Issues? How insecure are you, man? You have to justify your insults towards someone else by saying they are ****ed up because they took offense to what you said over an internet messageboard. **** that. That is not justification, and this bullshit isn't going to be tolerated anymore.
If you want that crap, go sit your lame asses on the couch and watch Fox. We are not Fox.
Furthermore, what is with bringing in this legalese bullshit? I don't care if you show me precedent. I'm not a god damn judge. You want to show precedent, file a lawsuit and get your bloody lawyer to do it. And don't even play like, "Man, that wasn't a threat. You have issues if you took it so seriously on an internet messageboard." Shut the hell up. Just stop that.
When you admin and moderate this board, or own this board, you can have all the nasty ass political discussions you want in your forums. We may not own the box, but the owner's of the box put us in charge of it. We don't want to see AppleOutsider trump IRC as the asshole of the Internet. It's embrassing to us, you, and the mac community if you want to go that far. 90% of the threads are started and pushed to contain this new like Fox-esque perspective on entertainment. **** that, if you people want that, go elsewhere.
This whole thread just pisses me off, and I'm already twacked out and wired. If you have a problem with my language here, you can tell me or brad personally. But the points are valid. This is total bullshit. I'm not closing the thread, you guys are free to say what you want, but we're just telling it like it is. Your suggestion is denied.
I believe all we are striving for is for the membership to conduct themselves in a basic level of understanding and respect for the other members.
If something is posted that is offending please feel free to PM myself or others here and I will personally PM the offender and / or edit the offending content.
Some do not like when we edit or warn against offending posts but that is just tough.
We believe it is in the interest of all members to conduct themselves as adults taking care in what is posted.
Fellows
But it's not because we are far from perfect, that we will allow this place and especially AO, to become a free for all place. In a perfect world, mods should not exist, because each people shoud be his own moderator. In our modern world, the more the situation is a mess, the more regulation is needed. That's really sad, but it's the reality.
Why it's sad ? : because heavy regulation leads to injustices in some cases.
So if it leads to injustice, why regulate ? : because the lack of regulation is injustice for all. More violence (verbal), and the thin skinned or peacefull people will leave the place.
The current level of regulation has changed here in AO, and have became more draconian. It's true, and it's our will. We don't know if it the political outcome, that made this place becoming a firesidechat like place, but we think that this leeway must stop.
Frankly we will be very happy, if a lower level of regulation will be needed here, and that our job, will be mainly moving threads, and banning one troll two or three times per year.
One last world about the rights of mods and admins about this place. Yes we don't own this place. We have made the guidelines : we are free to change it if it's our will, and AI the forum, will not exist without the current staff and the emeritus members of it.
If Jonh, Amorph, Brad and others where not there, AI will be dead now. They have the right to consider morally that they own this forum in some extent. (the front page is the property of Kasper (founder of AI)). If one day this place become a shame, or will die, i think that the real owners (don't ask names, we are not able to give answers even to ourselves) will come back and threw us in hell. At this time, the AI you used to know will be over.
Thanks for reading
You people have just let that place (AppleOutsider) go to hell, huh? It IS embarrassing.
I like what Brad said about AppleInsider going back to its roots, so to speak. No law that says there has to be such a forum at AppleInsider.
That probably wouldn't upset many people. And there are tons of other places people can go to for political/cultural discussion and debate.
I sometimes wonder about people stumbling across AppleInsider (for the rumors or the good General Discussion, Digital Hub or Genius Bar forums) and then wandering in to AppleOutsider. Bless their hearts...
Their opinion of the joint HAS to take a sharp nose-dive, I'd imagine.
I got the hell out of there almost a year ago because I knew I couldn't participate correctly. I HAD to ban myself (self-inflicted ban stick beating?), for the good of the planet and society as a whole.
Good job on the cussing, LoCash. I learned me some new words!
Originally posted by LoCash
It's an embarassment. You people are to blame.
Forget it.