Racial or Criminal Profiling?
Ok... a local talk radio host (conservative republican talk station) in the morning has brought up an interesting question. http://www.mastalk.com/
This was all sparked by Condy Rice's testimony and has been raging here for a few weeks.
Article
Richard Ben-Veniste and Bob Kerrey received the lion's share of media attention paid to last week's 9/11 Commission hearing with Condoleezza Rice, thanks to their generally intemperate questioning style. But while Ben-Veniste and Kerrey played to the cameras, it was their colleague, John Lehman, who was breaking new ground with the national-security adviser, but few noticed.
Lehman's focus was the transition between the Clinton and Bush administrations. He told Rice that he was "struck by the continuity of the policies rather than the differences," and then he proceeded to ask Rice a series of blunt questions as to what she was told during the transition.
Among Lehman's questions was this: "Were you aware that it was the policy...to fine airlines if they have more than two young Arab males in secondary questioning because that's discriminatory?"
Rice replied: "No, I have to say that the kind of inside arrangements for the FAA are not really in my...." (Lehman quickly followed up: "Well, these are not so inside.")
Watching the hearings on television with the rest of the nation, I wondered what in the world Secretary Lehman was talking about. This, I'd never heard before. Was he saying that the security of our airlines had been sacrificed by political correctness? A few days after the klieg lights had faded, I had the chance to ask him.
"We had testimony a couple of months ago from the past president of United, and current president of American Airlines that kind of shocked us all," Lehman told me. "They said under oath that indeed the Department of Transportation continued to fine any airline that was caught having more than two people of the same ethnic persuasion in a secondary line for line for questioning, including and especially, two Arabs."
I understand that some people consider it racism to "profile" people. But at what point does it become ridiculous? I don't see it there but I also heard that several airlines have allready been fined. At what point does "criminal profiling" become "racial profiling"?
I mean in all honesty, when looking for Islamic terrorists you can generally rule out Nuns and Chasidic Jews. Much in the same way that when looking for someone who pulled a drive by you can pass the guy in the three peice suit by and look harder at people dressed in "gang colors".
Is it being racist, or just being safe?
This was all sparked by Condy Rice's testimony and has been raging here for a few weeks.
Article
Richard Ben-Veniste and Bob Kerrey received the lion's share of media attention paid to last week's 9/11 Commission hearing with Condoleezza Rice, thanks to their generally intemperate questioning style. But while Ben-Veniste and Kerrey played to the cameras, it was their colleague, John Lehman, who was breaking new ground with the national-security adviser, but few noticed.
Lehman's focus was the transition between the Clinton and Bush administrations. He told Rice that he was "struck by the continuity of the policies rather than the differences," and then he proceeded to ask Rice a series of blunt questions as to what she was told during the transition.
Among Lehman's questions was this: "Were you aware that it was the policy...to fine airlines if they have more than two young Arab males in secondary questioning because that's discriminatory?"
Rice replied: "No, I have to say that the kind of inside arrangements for the FAA are not really in my...." (Lehman quickly followed up: "Well, these are not so inside.")
Watching the hearings on television with the rest of the nation, I wondered what in the world Secretary Lehman was talking about. This, I'd never heard before. Was he saying that the security of our airlines had been sacrificed by political correctness? A few days after the klieg lights had faded, I had the chance to ask him.
"We had testimony a couple of months ago from the past president of United, and current president of American Airlines that kind of shocked us all," Lehman told me. "They said under oath that indeed the Department of Transportation continued to fine any airline that was caught having more than two people of the same ethnic persuasion in a secondary line for line for questioning, including and especially, two Arabs."
I understand that some people consider it racism to "profile" people. But at what point does it become ridiculous? I don't see it there but I also heard that several airlines have allready been fined. At what point does "criminal profiling" become "racial profiling"?
I mean in all honesty, when looking for Islamic terrorists you can generally rule out Nuns and Chasidic Jews. Much in the same way that when looking for someone who pulled a drive by you can pass the guy in the three peice suit by and look harder at people dressed in "gang colors".
Is it being racist, or just being safe?
Comments
Timothy McVeigh
I understand that some people consider it racism to "profile" people. But at what point does it become ridiculous?
It becomes ridiculous when people actually believe that the color of someones skin makes them more likely to commit a particular crime. MOST Arabs are fine people. Disrespecting them is sending the wrong message. National Security Policy should be a little stronger than "shaking down everyone" in hopes of finding a few criminals.
I mean in all honesty, when looking for Islamic terrorists you can generally rule out Nuns and Chasidic Jews. Much in the same way that when looking for someone who pulled a drive by you can pass the guy in the three peice suit by and look harder at people dressed in "gang colors".
Yes but these are far different than what you see with terrorism. Many americans think the cabs drivers in Turbans ar Arabs because of what they see in movies. If you're a Sikh or a Hindu ..right now your life is shit because everyone you go your close proximity to looking Arab is causing you grief. Does the mafia do drive-bys in 3 piece suits? Well yes if you've watched the Godfather and other Mob shows. Your analogy is contrived to say the least.
Racial Profiling is wrong! There is no way to legitimize it via policy.
Not to mention that there are few cases in the US where targeting those with an arab appearance would actually have done anything beneficial.
What I would like to know is how this fine system came about. Was there an incident or two where security stepped over the line?
Originally posted by giant
[B]It's also interesting to note that you hear almost no mention of the fact that Israelis account for many of the incidences of suspicious activity following (and even preceeding) 9.11. I bet I'll get attacked right here for pointing that out.
C'mon Giant, of course you will get attacked. To criticize Israel is to deny the Holocaust. To criticize Bush is to support al Qaeda. To criticize the war in Iraq is to be anti-American. To criticize corporate greed is to support communism.
And yes you are absolutely correct, there were numerous incidence of highly suspicious Israeli activity and shenanigans up to, during and after 9-11. But we can't talk about that can we....and neither can the FBI.
http://ww1.sundayherald.com/print377...lobemovers.htm
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...an_020621.html
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http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23083
http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=14892
Originally posted by hmurchison
It becomes ridiculous when people actually believe that the color of someones skin makes them more likely to commit a particular crime. MOST Arabs are fine people. Disrespecting them is sending the wrong message. National Security Policy should be a little stronger than "shaking down everyone" in hopes of finding a few criminals.
Yes but these are far different than what you see with terrorism. Many americans think the cabs drivers in Turbans ar Arabs because of what they see in movies. If you're a Sikh or a Hindu ..right now your life is shit because everyone you go your close proximity to looking Arab is causing you grief. Does the mafia do drive-bys in 3 piece suits? Well yes if you've watched the Godfather and other Mob shows. Your analogy is contrived to say the least.
Racial Profiling is wrong! There is no way to legitimize it via policy.
I could not agree more. Racial profiling goes really weird when the customs people cannot profile racially the customers (travellers). Take one example: a full British Airways plane from London to New York. Maybe 400 passengers? Pick TWO passengers aside in JFK to search them and ask them a lot of unnecessary questions (of which I would doubt all were even legal to be asked) - me, and a Mid-Eastern looking about 40 years old man who had a Swedish passport. Me as I was terrorist looking? As I live(d) in a wrong place? Why me?? To define if I could be one more arabic to make BA to be fined?
I have a feel that racial paranoia is getting to Europe (those parts where it was less). Last time in UK/Ireland border: "And how do you qualify exactly for this **** citizenship?"
It's not ok to victimize innocent people hoping you'll cast a wide enough net to catch the "bad guys." That's it plain and simple.
Could you prevent a lot of crime if you detained all African American men? Does that make it right?
Anyone try to get a scholarship lately?
Originally posted by Jubelum
Racial Profiling?
Anyone try to get a scholarship lately?
Completely different things.
Originally posted by torifile
Completely different things.
Call it what you will. Discrimination sucks.
Originally posted by Jubelum
Call it what you will. Discrimination sucks.
But this thread is about racial profiling. How do you feel about that particular issue?
But this thread is about racial profiling. How do you feel about that particular issue?
Apathetic evidently. It's interesting to note that people only complain about discrimination when they feel it directly affects them.
He knows he's unlikely to get profiled(yes I'm ASSuME'ing) but is more worried about perceived discriminatory practices in education.
Originally posted by Jubelum
Call it what you will. Discrimination sucks.
Here we are talking about practical reasons for and limitations on racial profiling as a means to prevent crime/terrorism. Nothing to do with scholarships.
As I pointed out here a year ago:
Originally posted by giant
And hasn't anyone noticed that all of the most high-profile arrests; dirty-bomber, shoe-bomber, recent grendade bomber in london; WERE NOT ARAB.
Trans Sec Mineta gave some other examples over two years ago:
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/042002sp.htm
In 1986, a 32-year-old Irish woman, pregnant at the time, was about to board an El Al flight from London to Tel Aviv when El Al security agents discovered an explosive device hidden in the false bottom of her bag. The woman?s boyfriend ? the father of her unborn child ? had hidden the bomb.
In 1987, a 70-year-old man and a 25-year-old woman ? neither of whom were Middle Eastern ? posed as father and daughter and brought a bomb aboard a Korean Air flight from Baghdad to Thailand. En route to Bangkok, the bomb exploded, killing all on board.
In 1999, men dressed as businessmen (and one dressed as a Catholic priest) turned out to be terrorist hijackers, who forced an Avianca flight to divert to an airstrip in Colombia, where some passengers were held as hostages for more than a year-and-half.
Then, we have some of the studies that have been done that show it is ineffective:
http://www.lamberthconsulting.com/research_work.asp
Originally posted by hmurchison
*Cough* *Cough*
Timothy McVeigh
It becomes ridiculous when people actually believe that the color of someones skin makes them more likely to commit a particular crime. MOST Arabs are fine people. Disrespecting them is sending the wrong message. National Security Policy should be a little stronger than "shaking down everyone" in hopes of finding a few criminals.
Yes but these are far different than what you see with terrorism. Many americans think the cabs drivers in Turbans ar Arabs because of what they see in movies. If you're a Sikh or a Hindu ..right now your life is shit because everyone you go your close proximity to looking Arab is causing you grief. Does the mafia do drive-bys in 3 piece suits? Well yes if you've watched the Godfather and other Mob shows. Your analogy is contrived to say the least.
Racial Profiling is wrong! There is no way to legitimize it via policy.
My analogy is not contrived. The point came across clearly enough, even if you deny it. You don't look for gangbangers on Wall Street any more than you look for Insider Trading in Compton.
SO it's ok to limit who can be searched by racial terms? I'm not saying to specificaly target "Arabic looking people". What I'm saying is that if there are more than 2 people pulled from aline of a single ethnic group (even if it is done at random) the airlines are fined.
And what is the difference between looking for "arabic looking" Islamic terrorists, and "young, white male" serial killers? Why is one just simply "criminal profiling" and the other "racial".
Originally posted by giant
It's also interesting to note that you hear almost no mention of the fact that Israelis account for many of the incidences of suspicious activity following (and even preceeding) 9.11. I bet I'll get attacked right here for pointing that out. But it just goes to show how much preconcived notions about race, ethnicity and nationality play into beliefs about validity of racial profiling.
Not to mention that there are few cases in the US where targeting those with an arab appearance would actually have done anything beneficial.
What I would like to know is how this fine system came about. Was there an incident or two where security stepped over the line?
Could you clarify the Isreal comment here? What incidents of suspicious activity are you refering to?
And there was no chance for security to step out of line. This policy has been in place since the first Clinton term.
Originally posted by FaydRautha
And what is the difference between looking for "arabic looking" Islamic terrorists, and "young, white male" serial killers? Why is one just simply "criminal profiling" and the other "racial".
Many serial killers I hear about here in chicago are black.
Originally posted by giant
Many serial killers I hear about here in chicago are black.
There are serial killers in chicago?
Weird.
Originally posted by billybobsky
There are serial killers in chicago?
Yeah, I don't really read chicago newspapers much anymore, but back when I did there would periodically be some story about some guy strangling prostitutes or something, but it would disappear. It seems like it's only big news if it's some white guy who's killing white teenage boys.
But I don't know the statistics. It's just my impression from what I've seen in the papers here.
Originally posted by FaydRautha
Could you clarify the Isreal comment here? What incidents of suspicious activity are you refering to?
Well, there was the group cheering the attacks, the group with the video of the sears tower and the multiple groups stopped in moving vans.
Pre-9/11: http://cryptome.org/dea-il-spy.htm
And there was no chance for security to step out of line. This policy has been in place since the first Clinton term.
The Dept of Trans denies that such a quota ever existed.
http://www.mastalk.com/articlefull.asp?ID=17
It seems to me that we need more info first.