It's incredibly unfortunate, but I understand that the air marshals did what they needed to do. Just terrible.
I guess that we now have to figure out how to keep this from happening again. How do we keep everyone safe without killing mental patients who haven't taken their medication?
People suffering from mental illness aren't weirdos. Their life is hard enough without healthy people being afraid of and typecasting them.
It sounds like the victim was frightened or agitated.
When that young Brazilian man was shot dead in our London underground system this summer, life stops momentarily. We might be able to pick up and continue as if nothing happened.
I think teams of such marshals should be equiped with both lethal and non leathal weapons... in cases like this a shot from a dart gun would have subdued the individual... if he continued to make threats or act in a hostile manner, then his murder would be completely justfied...
I think teams of such marshals should be equiped with both lethal and non leathal weapons... in cases like this a shot from a dart gun would have subdued the individual... if he continued to make threats or act in a hostile manner, then his murder would be completely justfied...
Exactly. You can shoot someone with a pistol and they can still function most of the time, like reach in their bag and 'push the button' or whatever you think they were going to do. A taser or something similar will instantly cause them to go into convultions ceasing whatever activity they were planning on doing. Then you have a living suspect that you could question or let go when you realize they have a mental illness or some other reason for behaving odd.
Aren't you the one who used the term. What is your definition of weirdo?
Read the thread properly Hardeharhar. It's about 'watching your mouth'.
'Weirdo' is a value judgement. It's referent applies to
behaviour out of the expected norms falls into this category. This bit doesn't concern. Moreover, 'weirdo' is a social construct of a pejorative nature, and distinctly unsympathetic and inappropriately lacking in sympathy for the deceased.
Do you want to dispute this?
Do you know enough about the victim to call him a weirdo without imposing your value judgements on him? He's dead, and he won't argue back.
It sounds to me like his wife really fucked up. What a shame. She was purportedly trying to explain during the incident that he had not taken his meds according to media reports which obviously implies that she knew about his condition and that he had not taken his meds. If he has this disorder I can't really blame him for putting himself in that situation but for her to let her husband go to an airport, knowing how seriously and literally airport security takes any strange behavior, when he is not in the right frame of mind is foolishness.
As far as tasers, they make some sense for airport security and the like. I'm not sure they are very viable for air marshals though. All air marshals are undercover and you can only conceal so much gear. Moreover it is not realistic to expect one officer to wield two weapons simultaneously. When most police forces use non lethal weapons it is in a standoff situation where other officers are providing cover with their guns for the officer using the non-lethal weapon. The gun has to be the weapon of choice for a solo undercover officer. Additionally, bombs and electrical current may not go well together.
It sounds to me like his wife really fucked up. What a shame. She was purportedly trying to explain during the incident that he had not taken his meds according to media reports which obviously implies that she knew about his condition and that he had not taken his meds. If he has this disorder I can't really blame him for putting himself in that situation but for her to let her husband go to an airport, knowing how seriously and literally airport security takes any strange behavior, when he is not in the right frame of mind is foolishness.
I don't know if you've ever had much experience with metal illness, but it can be extraordinarily difficult to control or moderate the behavior of the afflicted.
Particularly with an illness like bipolar disorder, an individual may be fairly functional most of the time and feel that they are on top of things when they are not. People go off their meds all the time because they feel better and imagine that they don't need them anymore.
Short of having someone involuntarily committed (which, given the state of our mental health care, is pretty much a horror show and almost no one would choose that if they felt they had any other options) or locking them up in their homes or drugging them into insensibility there really isn't much you can do.
I don't know if you've ever had much experience with metal illness, but it can be extraordinarily difficult to control or moderate the behavior of the afflicted.
No experience with metal illness as I've had my tetanus shots.
Seriously though, as you say it is very difficult to control his behavior if he is off his meds. Which is exactly why you do not let him go to the airport, one way or another. That is the absolute worse place for a mentally unstable person to be. She let him go into a situation with tons of armed security personnel all of whom are trained to take a six year old joking about a bomb as seriously as if it were really Osama talking about how he is goign to blow up the Statue of Liberty. In addition to the security personnel you have a situation with long tedious waits, cramped and claustrophic quarters on a plane, and other irritable people around and you are going to give all of those negative stimuli to this unstable person. It's just begging for a bad outcome. Now certainly you would have expected it end in a tragedy with the magnitude of death but other outcomes like arrest, detainment, involuntary commitment, or a bad scene are other things that you can also imagine could have happened under the circumstances. And based on the media reports it seems that she as well as the other passengers were aware that he was not dealing well before he got on the airplane.
Quote:
Short of having someone involuntarily committed (which, given the state of our mental health care, is pretty much a horror show and almost no one would choose that if they felt they had any other options) or locking them up in their homes or drugging them into insensibility there really isn't much you can do.
Again, I'm not saying that she should have called the cops the moment he stopped taking his pills. Dealing with a mentally unstable person is one thing. Dealing with them in an airport situation is another altogether. I still say you simply do not take him to the airport if he has gone off of his medication and if he shows he is struggling beforehand then cut your losses and get out of there right away.
No experience with metal illness as I've had my tetanus shots.
Seriously though, as you say it is very difficult to control his behavior if he is off his meds. Which is exactly why you do not let him go to the airport, one way or another. That is the absolute worse place for a mentally unstable person to be. She let him go into a situation with tons of armed security personnel all of whom are trained to take a six year old joking about a bomb as seriously as if it were really Osama talking about how he is goign to blow up the Statue of Liberty. In addition to the security personnel you have a situation with long tedious waits, cramped and claustrophic quarters on a plane, and other irritable people around and you are going to give all of those negative stimuli to this unstable person. It's just begging for a bad outcome. Now certainly you would have expected it end in a tragedy with the magnitude of death but other outcomes like arrest, detainment, involuntary commitment, or a bad scene are other things that you can also imagine could have happened under the circumstances. And based on the media reports it seems that she as well as the other passengers were aware that he was not dealing well before he got on the airplane.
Again, I'm not saying that she should have called the cops the moment he stopped taking his pills. Dealing with a mentally unstable person is one thing. Dealing with them in an airport situation is another altogether. I still say you simply do not take him to the airport if he has gone off of his medication and if he shows he is struggling beforehand then cut your losses and get out of there right away.
Sure, I get what you're saying, but in my experience this kind of stuff isn't generally as cut and dried as "you're crazy now mister, no plane trips for you".
I figure if the guy wanted to go to the airport there probably wasn't a whole lot his wife could do about it.
Comments
he wasn't really fit to travel.
It's appalling and inevitable in the current social state of information anxiety over terrorist activity.
I guess that we now have to figure out how to keep this from happening again. How do we keep everyone safe without killing mental patients who haven't taken their medication?
Weirdos on the airplanes + undertrained FBI/ CIA/ DEA rejects = somebody gets shot dead.
There is a reason why either nobody should have a gun on an airplane or everybody should have one. The principle of power balance and deterrence.
People suffering from mental illness aren't weirdos. Their life is hard enough without healthy people being afraid of and typecasting them.
It sounds like the victim was frightened or agitated.
When that young Brazilian man was shot dead in our London underground system this summer, life stops momentarily. We might be able to pick up and continue as if nothing happened.
But it happens all the same.
[B]Skatman,
People suffering from mental illness aren't weirdos.
[quote]
What's a definition of a "weirdo" then? And how do you know when someone is mentally ill?
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Justin
Skatman,
People suffering from mental illness aren't weirdos.
Quote:
What's a definition of a "weirdo" then? And how do you know when someone is mentally ill?
Aren't you the one who used the term. What is your definition of weirdo?
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I think teams of such marshals should be equiped with both lethal and non leathal weapons...
Yeah, why don't these guys have tasers? Police use them VERY effectively all the time.
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I think teams of such marshals should be equiped with both lethal and non leathal weapons... in cases like this a shot from a dart gun would have subdued the individual... if he continued to make threats or act in a hostile manner, then his murder would be completely justfied...
Exactly. You can shoot someone with a pistol and they can still function most of the time, like reach in their bag and 'push the button' or whatever you think they were going to do. A taser or something similar will instantly cause them to go into convultions ceasing whatever activity they were planning on doing. Then you have a living suspect that you could question or let go when you realize they have a mental illness or some other reason for behaving odd.
Aren't you the one who used the term. What is your definition of weirdo?
Read the thread properly Hardeharhar. It's about 'watching your mouth'.
'Weirdo' is a value judgement. It's referent applies to
behaviour out of the expected norms falls into this category. This bit doesn't concern. Moreover, 'weirdo' is a social construct of a pejorative nature, and distinctly unsympathetic and inappropriately lacking in sympathy for the deceased.
Do you want to dispute this?
Do you know enough about the victim to call him a weirdo without imposing your value judgements on him? He's dead, and he won't argue back.
As far as tasers, they make some sense for airport security and the like. I'm not sure they are very viable for air marshals though. All air marshals are undercover and you can only conceal so much gear. Moreover it is not realistic to expect one officer to wield two weapons simultaneously. When most police forces use non lethal weapons it is in a standoff situation where other officers are providing cover with their guns for the officer using the non-lethal weapon. The gun has to be the weapon of choice for a solo undercover officer. Additionally, bombs and electrical current may not go well together.
Police use them VERY effectively all the time.
Where did you read that?
On an airplane when you don't want to take chances, deadly force is a sure solution. After all it's one guy, or the entire plane...
Did they use the deadly force properly in this case? Who knows?!
Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath
It sounds to me like his wife really fucked up. What a shame. She was purportedly trying to explain during the incident that he had not taken his meds according to media reports which obviously implies that she knew about his condition and that he had not taken his meds. If he has this disorder I can't really blame him for putting himself in that situation but for her to let her husband go to an airport, knowing how seriously and literally airport security takes any strange behavior, when he is not in the right frame of mind is foolishness.
I don't know if you've ever had much experience with metal illness, but it can be extraordinarily difficult to control or moderate the behavior of the afflicted.
Particularly with an illness like bipolar disorder, an individual may be fairly functional most of the time and feel that they are on top of things when they are not. People go off their meds all the time because they feel better and imagine that they don't need them anymore.
Short of having someone involuntarily committed (which, given the state of our mental health care, is pretty much a horror show and almost no one would choose that if they felt they had any other options) or locking them up in their homes or drugging them into insensibility there really isn't much you can do.
This story brings tears to my eyes.
I don't know if you've ever had much experience with metal illness, but it can be extraordinarily difficult to control or moderate the behavior of the afflicted.
No experience with metal illness as I've had my tetanus shots.
Seriously though, as you say it is very difficult to control his behavior if he is off his meds. Which is exactly why you do not let him go to the airport, one way or another. That is the absolute worse place for a mentally unstable person to be. She let him go into a situation with tons of armed security personnel all of whom are trained to take a six year old joking about a bomb as seriously as if it were really Osama talking about how he is goign to blow up the Statue of Liberty. In addition to the security personnel you have a situation with long tedious waits, cramped and claustrophic quarters on a plane, and other irritable people around and you are going to give all of those negative stimuli to this unstable person. It's just begging for a bad outcome. Now certainly you would have expected it end in a tragedy with the magnitude of death but other outcomes like arrest, detainment, involuntary commitment, or a bad scene are other things that you can also imagine could have happened under the circumstances. And based on the media reports it seems that she as well as the other passengers were aware that he was not dealing well before he got on the airplane.
Short of having someone involuntarily committed (which, given the state of our mental health care, is pretty much a horror show and almost no one would choose that if they felt they had any other options) or locking them up in their homes or drugging them into insensibility there really isn't much you can do.
Again, I'm not saying that she should have called the cops the moment he stopped taking his pills. Dealing with a mentally unstable person is one thing. Dealing with them in an airport situation is another altogether. I still say you simply do not take him to the airport if he has gone off of his medication and if he shows he is struggling beforehand then cut your losses and get out of there right away.
Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath
No experience with metal illness as I've had my tetanus shots.
Seriously though, as you say it is very difficult to control his behavior if he is off his meds. Which is exactly why you do not let him go to the airport, one way or another. That is the absolute worse place for a mentally unstable person to be. She let him go into a situation with tons of armed security personnel all of whom are trained to take a six year old joking about a bomb as seriously as if it were really Osama talking about how he is goign to blow up the Statue of Liberty. In addition to the security personnel you have a situation with long tedious waits, cramped and claustrophic quarters on a plane, and other irritable people around and you are going to give all of those negative stimuli to this unstable person. It's just begging for a bad outcome. Now certainly you would have expected it end in a tragedy with the magnitude of death but other outcomes like arrest, detainment, involuntary commitment, or a bad scene are other things that you can also imagine could have happened under the circumstances. And based on the media reports it seems that she as well as the other passengers were aware that he was not dealing well before he got on the airplane.
Again, I'm not saying that she should have called the cops the moment he stopped taking his pills. Dealing with a mentally unstable person is one thing. Dealing with them in an airport situation is another altogether. I still say you simply do not take him to the airport if he has gone off of his medication and if he shows he is struggling beforehand then cut your losses and get out of there right away.
Sure, I get what you're saying, but in my experience this kind of stuff isn't generally as cut and dried as "you're crazy now mister, no plane trips for you".
I figure if the guy wanted to go to the airport there probably wasn't a whole lot his wife could do about it.