AVCHD - Sony and Panasonic announce new HD codec 4 camcorders
Camcorderinfo.com has the Press Release
Frankly I'm a bit nonplussed by this. Optical media as a recording medium for camcorders isn't that hot to me. Hopefully Panasonic will have flash based camcorders using this spec as well. Looks like HDV is going to get an early retirement. Tape based products simply aren't going to last into the next decade for consumers.
I'd rather they have chosen small drives instead. That makes the most sense IMO.
Quote:
BREAKING NEWS May 11, 2006 - Sony and Matsushita (Panasonic) today have just announced a co-developed high definition DVD format specifically for the camcorders. The new AVCHD format captures video onto 8cm DVDs using the MPEG4 AVC/H.264 compression system. The format records video at 18 Megabits per second, which is signifigantly higher than existing standard defintiion DVD camcorders, but lower than the HDV format. The companies have been working on the format together for over a year.
?Basically, there?s been this huge market shift to high definition, at the same time with camcorders, there is a trend towards optical discs or DVD camcorders,? said Yolanda Hunt-Boes, Sony Spokesman ?Both companies have been looking at high definition on this solution, and in the second half of 2005, on the engineering level we came together and said, we?ve been doing this separately lets move forward together.?
The format effectively compresses HD into a small enough data stream that it can fit onto existing 8 cm DVD discs. It appears that instead of releasing a next generation optical disc camcorder, the companies are wedging HD onto existing technology in order to provide consumers with HD optical discs as soon as possible. Interestingly, this is the same strategy that is being used with HDV, the current tape-based HD consumer standard. HDV tapes squeeze a compressed HD signal onto MiniDV tapes, which are a decade old technology.
The AVCHD format for 8 cm DVD camcorders will enable users to shoot HD footage in a MPEG4/H.264 codec at twice the efficiency of the current MPEG2 or MPEG4 codec, according to a Panasonic press release. The codec will be able to shoot 1080i or 720p with a 4:2:0 sampling format. The MPEG4/H.264 will be able to shoot in both 4:3 and 16:9 formats. The luminance signal sampling frequency is rated at 74.25 MHz and the quantization bit rate for both luminance and chrominance will occur at 8 bits. The bit-rate for the AVCHD format will enable data transfer of up to 18 Mbps.
The new AVCHD format will be able to use either the Dolby Digital (AC-3) or Linear PCM audio codecs for high-quality audio recording. Audio recorded in the Dolby Digital (AC-3) codec will have the potential for 1 ? 5.1 channel audio modes whereas the Linear PCM audio codec will be able to output anywhere from 1 to 7.1 channels.
What impact this will have on HDV, is unknown. While Sony is a member of the HDV consortium, Panasonic is not. This is Panasonic's first official announcement regarding consumer high defintion camcorders. Up to this point there has been much speculation as to what Panasonic's high defintion strategy would be.
While Blu-Ray, backed by both Sony and Panasonic, has been receiving the most of the HD attention the last few months, no plans had been announced to implement the technology in their camcorder line. Today's announcemcent seems to indicate that for the near future, the companies will be releasing AVCHD camcorders as a stop gap measure until Blu-Ray comes along, but at that point they do expect both to exist on the market. ?We?re talking about the two formats [Blu-ray and AVCHD] coexist together. They believe it?s something that can coexist and even broaden the appeal of Blu-Ray disk,? said Hunt-Boles.
"The AVCHD format doesn?t have an advanced copyright protection system, and it?s really for content on those 8 cm DVD discs. Of course it doesn?t have the capacity of a Blu-Ray disc. The AVCHD format is about using normal 8 cm discs. But, since they use the same compression technology, you should be able to play back an AVCHD disk on a Blu-Ray disc player.?
Both companies are are continuing to pour money into engineering and marketing for their Blu-ray format over the competing HD-DVD format. How long that will ever trickle down to the camcorder market remains to be seen. Sony in the past has confirmed that they are planing on eventually releasing a Blu-ray camcorder.
An interesting addition to the AVCHD format is support of 24 frames progressive recording in both 720 lines of resolution and 1080 lines of resolution. 24P is a popular format for independent filmakers and many have complained about the lack of 24P support in the HDV format.
The increased 18Mbps bit rate of the AVCHD format will likely impress prosumer users who have been disappointed with the quality of DVD video. At more than double the current 8.5Mbps rate, the new bit rate is very close to tape-based standard definition, and it is likely that AVCHD video will be of a much higher quality than existing DVD camcoders.
Three other major camcorder manufacturers are markedly absent from this announcement. However, the companies do want other manufacturers to join on ?Sony and Panasonic have setup a licensing program because they want to get other people on board," said Hunt-Boes.
It is unknown what Canon and Samsung, both of whom have recently entered the DVD market, will do to provide HD support for DVD or optical media camcorders. JVC, the other major concern, is owned in part by Matsushita, and currently does not have any optical media-based camcorders. Despite their associate with Matsushita, the release did not specify whether JVC was a part of the AVCHD format.
As for a product timeline the companies did not make any announcements, however Sony indicated that the two companies are free to release AVCHD products independently of each other.
BREAKING NEWS May 11, 2006 - Sony and Matsushita (Panasonic) today have just announced a co-developed high definition DVD format specifically for the camcorders. The new AVCHD format captures video onto 8cm DVDs using the MPEG4 AVC/H.264 compression system. The format records video at 18 Megabits per second, which is signifigantly higher than existing standard defintiion DVD camcorders, but lower than the HDV format. The companies have been working on the format together for over a year.
?Basically, there?s been this huge market shift to high definition, at the same time with camcorders, there is a trend towards optical discs or DVD camcorders,? said Yolanda Hunt-Boes, Sony Spokesman ?Both companies have been looking at high definition on this solution, and in the second half of 2005, on the engineering level we came together and said, we?ve been doing this separately lets move forward together.?
The format effectively compresses HD into a small enough data stream that it can fit onto existing 8 cm DVD discs. It appears that instead of releasing a next generation optical disc camcorder, the companies are wedging HD onto existing technology in order to provide consumers with HD optical discs as soon as possible. Interestingly, this is the same strategy that is being used with HDV, the current tape-based HD consumer standard. HDV tapes squeeze a compressed HD signal onto MiniDV tapes, which are a decade old technology.
The AVCHD format for 8 cm DVD camcorders will enable users to shoot HD footage in a MPEG4/H.264 codec at twice the efficiency of the current MPEG2 or MPEG4 codec, according to a Panasonic press release. The codec will be able to shoot 1080i or 720p with a 4:2:0 sampling format. The MPEG4/H.264 will be able to shoot in both 4:3 and 16:9 formats. The luminance signal sampling frequency is rated at 74.25 MHz and the quantization bit rate for both luminance and chrominance will occur at 8 bits. The bit-rate for the AVCHD format will enable data transfer of up to 18 Mbps.
The new AVCHD format will be able to use either the Dolby Digital (AC-3) or Linear PCM audio codecs for high-quality audio recording. Audio recorded in the Dolby Digital (AC-3) codec will have the potential for 1 ? 5.1 channel audio modes whereas the Linear PCM audio codec will be able to output anywhere from 1 to 7.1 channels.
What impact this will have on HDV, is unknown. While Sony is a member of the HDV consortium, Panasonic is not. This is Panasonic's first official announcement regarding consumer high defintion camcorders. Up to this point there has been much speculation as to what Panasonic's high defintion strategy would be.
While Blu-Ray, backed by both Sony and Panasonic, has been receiving the most of the HD attention the last few months, no plans had been announced to implement the technology in their camcorder line. Today's announcemcent seems to indicate that for the near future, the companies will be releasing AVCHD camcorders as a stop gap measure until Blu-Ray comes along, but at that point they do expect both to exist on the market. ?We?re talking about the two formats [Blu-ray and AVCHD] coexist together. They believe it?s something that can coexist and even broaden the appeal of Blu-Ray disk,? said Hunt-Boles.
"The AVCHD format doesn?t have an advanced copyright protection system, and it?s really for content on those 8 cm DVD discs. Of course it doesn?t have the capacity of a Blu-Ray disc. The AVCHD format is about using normal 8 cm discs. But, since they use the same compression technology, you should be able to play back an AVCHD disk on a Blu-Ray disc player.?
Both companies are are continuing to pour money into engineering and marketing for their Blu-ray format over the competing HD-DVD format. How long that will ever trickle down to the camcorder market remains to be seen. Sony in the past has confirmed that they are planing on eventually releasing a Blu-ray camcorder.
An interesting addition to the AVCHD format is support of 24 frames progressive recording in both 720 lines of resolution and 1080 lines of resolution. 24P is a popular format for independent filmakers and many have complained about the lack of 24P support in the HDV format.
The increased 18Mbps bit rate of the AVCHD format will likely impress prosumer users who have been disappointed with the quality of DVD video. At more than double the current 8.5Mbps rate, the new bit rate is very close to tape-based standard definition, and it is likely that AVCHD video will be of a much higher quality than existing DVD camcoders.
Three other major camcorder manufacturers are markedly absent from this announcement. However, the companies do want other manufacturers to join on ?Sony and Panasonic have setup a licensing program because they want to get other people on board," said Hunt-Boes.
It is unknown what Canon and Samsung, both of whom have recently entered the DVD market, will do to provide HD support for DVD or optical media camcorders. JVC, the other major concern, is owned in part by Matsushita, and currently does not have any optical media-based camcorders. Despite their associate with Matsushita, the release did not specify whether JVC was a part of the AVCHD format.
As for a product timeline the companies did not make any announcements, however Sony indicated that the two companies are free to release AVCHD products independently of each other.
Frankly I'm a bit nonplussed by this. Optical media as a recording medium for camcorders isn't that hot to me. Hopefully Panasonic will have flash based camcorders using this spec as well. Looks like HDV is going to get an early retirement. Tape based products simply aren't going to last into the next decade for consumers.
I'd rather they have chosen small drives instead. That makes the most sense IMO.
Comments
This new HD video recording technology for SD Memory Cards will conform to the AVCHD standard, which uses a highly efficient compression encoding technology to record 1080i*1 or 720p*2 HD images onto 8-cm DVD discs. It will use MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 to compress video files, and Dolby Digital (AC-3) or Linear PCM for audio files. This combination makes it possible to develop HD video cameras that are compact yet deliver high-quality images and sounds.
Looks like my first HD camcorder will likely be a Panasonic. I like the idea of a flash based storage product over optical.
Originally posted by TenoBell
Oh great, I was just saying how we need more video formats. The dozens we have just weren't enough.
Well this sounds a bit like Japan coming to their senses. I mean how far was HDV really going to go. It is based on two technologies that are fairly old in tape and MPEG2.
I'd take a camera with AVC and 20GB of storage. With these lossy codecs you're going to have to transcode to a more editable anyways if you want to take advantage of the current NLE anyways.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Well this sounds a bit like Japan coming to their senses. I mean how far was HDV really going to go. It is based on two technologies that are fairly old in tape and MPEG2.
I'd take a camera with AVC and 20GB of storage. With these lossy codecs you're going to have to transcode to a more editable anyways if you want to take advantage of the current NLE anyways.
Have you edited native HDV? It edits just fine and since we're talking about consumer cameras, most consumers don't edit and those who do don't do any colour correction, keying or motion graphics.
Those are the things that make hdv's long gop have problems (drastically overrated problems i might add) but for the average consumer which is the vast majority nothing is wrong with hdv as a format.
Originally posted by ecking
Have you edited native HDV? It edits just fine and since we're talking about consumer cameras, most consumers don't edit and those who do don't do any colour correction, keying or motion graphics.
Those are the things that make hdv's long gop have problems (drastically overrated problems i might add) but for the average consumer which is the vast majority nothing is wrong with hdv as a format.
I didn't say HDV doesn't edit fine. It does however you lose a lot of realtime features that exist with the intraframe codecs. From a consumer level HDV or AVCHD editing shouldn't be bad but from a production level losing out on RT features isn't acceptable for many on deadlines. They'll simply transcode the video into a more editable codec and complete their work.
There's nothing wrong with the HDV format per se but there's noting that is exceptionally "right" either. Distribution codecs like AVC and MPEG2 are great for saving space but nothing gives you the features and flexibility of today's editing codecs. However you are correct for the average consumer AVCHD sounds greeeeeeeeeeeat.
It's probably worth keeping an eye on Ambarella as well: http://www.ambarella.com/
http://home.nestor.minsk.by/computer...6/04/2402.html
Panasonic also announced it will offer dual codec capability including an optional AVC-Intra (H.264 compliant) codec in addition to its widely supported DVCPRO HD codec. The AVC-Intra (H.264 compliant) codec offers significantly better compression efficiency than older MPEG-2 codecs and can provide high quality for news at half the bandwidth compared to DVCPRO HD. This bandwidth savings, without the compromises of long GOP compression, will offer advantages in storage and distribution as well as twice the recording time on a P2 card. The optional AVC-Intra (H.264 compliant) support for the new P2 HD products will be available in April 2007.
AVC-Intra sounds great! AVC with Intraframe compression. I'd love to see 10-bit 4.2.2 @ 50Mbps.
AVC - 20 minutes of HD footage on expensive discs.
Okay, I'm biased as I have a HDR-HC1 but why is AVCHD better?
Originally posted by Blackcat
HDV - 60 minutes of HD footage on really cheap DV tape.
AVC - 20 minutes of HD footage on expensive discs.
Okay, I'm biased as I have a HDR-HC1 but why is AVCHD better?
It's better because it's going to force you to move from the saturated Tape supplied market to the more lucrative mini DVD.
AVC is a nice codec but I doubt it'll be much superior to MPEG2 @ 19-25Mbps.
I may just pick up an HC-3 myself in a year. Costco sells MiniDV tapes for like $3 each in a pack. Prosumer camcorders have really sucked the last few years. CCD has gotten small (1/6) and only Panasonic has been bullish on 3CCD designs.
The whole industry is promoting optical based camcorders as some easy solution but honestly I haven't met too many people that have a hard time taking a tape based camcorder and hooking it into their front inputs on their TV. The motive really seems to be making more money on the media and moving off of tape which is low cost low margin.
Our recording time is shrinking and media price rising. Panasonic and Sony are telling us to look forward to Blu Ray camcorders. WTF? Blu Ray is awesome but there's no way I'm spending my money on a consumer optical based camcorder.
http://www.avchd-info.org/press/20060713.html
Max bitrate is now 24Mbps. Support for HDD, Memory Stick have been added.
I'll forward to the HDD options. I want more than 20 mins of record time. JVC hasn't signed on yet.
Sony to announce first AVCHD camcorder on Wednesday
Originally posted by Blackcat
I like DV tapes because they are 5 for £10, and my HC1 plays the DV tapes I made in 1998. Panasonic, Sony et al need to realise people value backward compatibility highly too.
I hate DV tapes because in my expensive, all electronic, all digital device. Which part invariably fails first? The clunky, magneto-mechanical-flintstones tape drive - as the £2 tape entangles itself in the entrails of the camera.
Grrr.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Updates to the AVCHD have hit.
http://www.avchd-info.org/press/20060713.html
Max bitrate is now 24Mbps. Support for HDD, Memory Stick have been added.
I'll forward to the HDD options. I want more than 20 mins of record time. JVC hasn't signed on yet.
Sony to announce first AVCHD camcorder on Wednesday
So is HDV dead in the water? It seemed such a good idea.
Originally posted by Blackcat
So is HDV dead in the water? It seemed such a good idea.
No, not even close. HDV uses mini DV video tape. It is one of at least three formats which use the same physical media. These are miniDV, HDV, and DVCAM. Read more about them here. The OP's post was about a new high-definition mini DVD format. If you fancy yourself a cinematographer, then you want to give DVD camcorders a very wide berth. As for hmurchison's recent post, read his link. You will see that this is about extending the new AVCHD format to memory sticks and such like. The bottomline is that AVCHD targets a completely different market than HDV.
Originally posted by Mr. Me
No, not even close. HDV uses mini DV video tape. It is one of at least three formats which use the same physical media. These are miniDV, HDV, and DVCAM. Read more about them here. The OP's post was about a new high-definition mini DVD format. If you fancy yourself a cinematographer, then you want to give DVD camcorders a very wide berth. As for hmurchison's recent post, read his link. You will see that this is about extending the new AVCHD format to memory sticks and such like. The bottomline is that AVCHD targets a completely different market than HDV.
I had hoped Sony (and others) would have released more HDV hardware by now. 3 models compared to many DV and DVD models seems half hearted, but I suppose it's still a chicken and egg situation as far as watching HD goes.
Originally posted by Blackcat
So is HDV dead in the water? It seemed such a good idea.
Odds are it's probably history. Although AVCHD is more of a consumer based format but it's going to offer the same quality of HDV so I have a hard time seeing HDV survive.
I'm very happy to see HDD support. Thing about this the current iPod 60GB drive could be put in a camera. That would offer up to 16 hours of HD recording!
Hell the 30GB drive would be of course roughly half of that and that's still a legit 6-8 hours of HD. Forget the days of swapping tapes every 60-90mins or slow tape based ingest into a NLE.
Come on Sony don't let me down deliver something tomorrow and let's get moving. Samsung, Sanyo, Canon, Adobe and others are onboard. JVC is a no show right now...they may feel slighted because they created the HDV format.
Originally posted by Blackcat
I had hoped Sony (and others) would have released more HDV hardware by now. 3 models compared to many DV and DVD models seems half hearted, but I suppose it's still a chicken and egg situation as far as watching HD goes.
Oh, please. Sony is not your only choice. There are Canon and JVC. Upscale standard miniDV cameras have been used to film major motion pictures. HDV cameras leverage the bodies and lenses developed for the older cameras. To produce less expensive models, you can't use cheaper image elements as you can in the case of regular miniDV. You can't use cheaper lenses because you lose the image quality that the higher resolution imaging element gives you. You can't use cheaper ports because they can't handle the data stream. The bottomline is that the vendors don't produce a lot of HDV models because the spectrum of required features is fairly narrow.
Sony is taking us for a ride however. I already knew they were planning to replace their tape based media with disc based media. But Sony just touted HDV as the greatest ever. Now they will promote AVCHD as the greatest ever, just to replace that with Blu-ray when it becomes available.
The motive really seems to be making more money on the media and moving off of tape which is low cost low margin.
Actually tape has been a big seller for Sony. Sony no longer manufactures U-matic decks or Betacam SP decks, but they still sell millions of tapes for the machines. Many in the industry have complained that Sony could have moved sooner and faster to change its products into optical and HDD storage. Many believe Sony is moving so slow because they are in no rush to give up their lucrative tape and tape deck business.
I'd agree with your assement on tape. I'm sure Sony's making a mint on that business.