How much for my application???
ok, so ive spent about a month working all my spare time to create a database application for a friends business, i reckon about 80 hours so far - Im not a fluent programmer, but it works a treat and i've learned and solved a whole bunch of geeky stuff, - I think next time I could do it in quarter the time easily now I know a few things. Its an SQL backend mated to a RealBasic frontend.
Basically, there are 6 tables in this database. Materials, components, sections, assembly, buildings and structures.
You define materials to create components from, define a section and add components to it to make an assembly, define a buildings and add sections to make a structure.
Then you press a button and it collates all the components in the structure, works out the total quantities, costs, weights etc and prints a report of everything needed to create the building. I suppose the cool thing is that once you have created your all the standard assemblies, making an entirely new structure is just a case of selecting a few assemblies and pressing a button to print a report. You can do it in 3 minutes versus working out an entire structure from scratch each time. Doing this is taking him about 3 hours each time depending on size and complexity. Not to mention the possibility of human error every time.
Its not particularly a massive thing, just very useful for him
Because its a friend, we agreed that if I got this going i'd be paid £500 (or about $1000), which is fine as far as this goes, he's been using it for a week, is very pleased - its going to save him literally hundreds of hours a year once the data is entered and i've been adding in new feature requests etc for a week.
But!
It doesn't take a genius to realise that this application could be used in a whole bunch of other fields if I took out the features specific to my friend and made it a bit customizable, but as i am a completely outside of programming/databasing by trade, I was wondering just what sort of money a custom databasing application would change hands for in the real world?
Basically, there are 6 tables in this database. Materials, components, sections, assembly, buildings and structures.
You define materials to create components from, define a section and add components to it to make an assembly, define a buildings and add sections to make a structure.
Then you press a button and it collates all the components in the structure, works out the total quantities, costs, weights etc and prints a report of everything needed to create the building. I suppose the cool thing is that once you have created your all the standard assemblies, making an entirely new structure is just a case of selecting a few assemblies and pressing a button to print a report. You can do it in 3 minutes versus working out an entire structure from scratch each time. Doing this is taking him about 3 hours each time depending on size and complexity. Not to mention the possibility of human error every time.
Its not particularly a massive thing, just very useful for him
Because its a friend, we agreed that if I got this going i'd be paid £500 (or about $1000), which is fine as far as this goes, he's been using it for a week, is very pleased - its going to save him literally hundreds of hours a year once the data is entered and i've been adding in new feature requests etc for a week.
But!
It doesn't take a genius to realise that this application could be used in a whole bunch of other fields if I took out the features specific to my friend and made it a bit customizable, but as i am a completely outside of programming/databasing by trade, I was wondering just what sort of money a custom databasing application would change hands for in the real world?
Comments
That's Linux, and Linux can drop dead off the side of the road and dig it's own damn grave for all I care for it.
Um, no. Do some market research between homeroom and trig and come back then. At that point I'll be less inclined to make fun of your age, since you might have developed some experience in the matter, which ultimately is all that matters.
Here's a hint: for enterprise software in particular, which is what this is, it's all about the services. Companies large and small often desire custom-tailored interpretations of software.
Are you really selling them THE PROGRAM or are you selling them the RIGHTS to USE the program? These are two entirely different things and the fees charged would/should widely vary. If it will truly change (improve) their business then perhaps you should be thinking about it as an 'unlimited right to use' (within their corporation).
All I'm saying is don't give away the entire WELL when they were ONLY asking for a GLASS of water!
Dave
It's hard to say what the value is, since a lot of the value of something like this depends on your continued support and you're admittedly approaching this as something of a temporary gig. In the U.S., a database programmer with 3-5 years experience can expect AT LEAST $50,000 a year, possibly a lot more if you go down the independent consulting route (guys with close to 10 years experience make $50 an hour minimum). Of course, those kind of rates presume you're working for a company that can justify that kind of cost, meaning large bureaucratic corporations that aren't as fun to work for as your friends' small business.
well, for the moment it is an ongoing thing, I have 2 more db's to make - an ordering/invoicing/reporting one that ties in with the db ive done - which is for my friend so 'mates rates' apply, but there is possibly another one for someone else, whom I have no aquaintance with - which I might do if I think im getting a fair price for my work. Obviously, im not a pro database house, so I cant command full rates, but I dont really want to be doing random people too many favours by working at minimum wage if the end results are as good/useful/reliable as a pro db.
I cant see much potential for making money other than the initial application and future modifications. Its not like my apps fall over. I build them solid! - and mac like - drag the folder from the CD to where you want it type things, no installers, no registry, no dll's.
what do some people mean by services?
I cant see much potential for making money other than the initial application and future modifications. Its not like my apps fall over. I build them solid! - and mac like - drag the folder from the CD to where you want it type things, no installers, no registry, no dll's.
What's the market for this program? I'm betting that it's not that large. If it were, could you even support it? Is your app that novel that you could sell enough of it to make more than a piddling profit? You stand a better chance selling your services to customize the app per an individual's specific needs than you do selling it for a fixed price. Sebastian doesn't think so, but he's also 16 and has never tried to start his own high tech business, to the best of my knowledge. If you make it open source, you increase the potential interest in the app, which makes your services more valuable.
What's the market for this program? I'm betting that it's not that large. If it were, could you even support it? Is your app that novel that you could sell enough of it to make more than a piddling profit? You stand a better chance selling your services to customize the app per an individual's specific needs than you do selling it for a fixed price. Sebastian doesn't think so, but he's also 16 and has never tried to start his own high tech business, to the best of my knowledge. If you make it open source, you increase the potential interest in the app, which makes your services more valuable.
sorry, slight misunderstanding on my part of what you meant by services. Thats' exactly what I mean, customizing the app for customer requirements. As it stands its set up for specifically one customer, but with not so much work, it could be respinned for many different purposes. I would basically be selling my services to customize the app. But for how much in an open market? Thats what I'd like to know. It would only ever be at this point in time a very small scale market.
Im not planning on opensource. I was thinking along the lines of, this is the basic app £xxx + customization £xxx = £xxx, obviously the basic app is useless without customization, because its only useful when set up to suit, so im basically selling customization, but that doesn't mean the basic app is free for all.
sorry, slight misunderstanding on my part of what you meant by services. Thats' exactly what I mean, customizing the app for customer requirements. As it stands its set up for specifically one customer, but with not so much work, it could be respinned for many different purposes. I would basically be selling my services to customize the app. But for how much in an open market? Thats what I'd like to know. It would only ever be at this point in time a very small scale market.
Im not planning on opensource. I was thinking along the lines of, this is the basic app £xxx + customization £xxx = £xxx, obviously the basic app is useless without customization, because its only useful when set up to suit, so im basically selling customization, but that doesn't mean the basic app is free for all.
Ultimately there's some trial and error to figure out what you're worth, but in the states I'd charge an hourly rate of $50-100 per hour, depending on your proficiency. The $100/hour range is probably where you want to be, so I'd go with £60/hour or therabouts. For the app itself, start high: maybe £500-1000. If there are no takers, you can always lower the price. If your clients are corporate, i.e. "enterprise," double all prices. Since your market is small, you also will be negotiating your prices on a per client basis anyway.
I would also recommend selling support contracts. Support contracts are fucking gold.
The reason I mention it is because you have to know your market. Who are your customers? Like someone else mentioned your "business" is database programming. Any geek that can read a book or CS grad' can do that. Knowing your customers business and needs is where the real money is.
Where I work we busy $$,$$$ software contracts and shake our head at how fscking CLUELESS the company that writes is about what we do.
None of this helps you! I guess it's like writing a book. Write what you know. I would say Code what you know.
My wife's an architect and we were talking about the local school and how the construction is over budget. We were talking about bidding on steel and concrete and other materials. I asked "Doesn't AutoCad know exactly how much of what is going into the building." And she said "Well Yea I guess so but the contractors find ways to cut things here and there (safely)"
I know you were using this as an analogy, but having come from a construction family, I would like to point out that the primary job of the contractor is to schedule the building/construction of the particular project, which is a major task. There are a lot of reasons for going over-budget that do not include material costs. Most are due to the fact that the low-bid contractor market is low-margin, and easily the the most dog-eat-dog market out there. More often than we'd like, a less-than-intelligent bidder will low-ball, and six months later the shit hits the fan.
Um, no. Do some market research between homeroom and trig and come back then. At that point I'll be less inclined to make fun of your age, since you might have developed some experience in the matter, which ultimately is all that matters.
Here's a hint: for enterprise software in particular, which is what this is, it's all about the services. Companies large and small often desire custom-tailored interpretations of software.
Hmm...been doing software for 20 years. Wanna compare epeens? No? Good.
Software is not going all freeware + services. I would say it is in the minority still. A lot more companies are profitable selling proprietary solutions.
While opensource + service is one potential option it certainly is nowhere close to the best way to make money that anyone can catagorically recommend it above all others. You are right that support contracts are gold however a fledgling coder isn't about to get $100/hour. There are unlikely to be any Enterprise customers.
I have worked for companies that have open sourced their products, typically with mixed/limited success. For him I would recommend against that approach even if he weren't inclined against going open source anyway. Given only 80 hours or so investment I would think that any other coder could get enough ideas from his code and replicate it very easily. Given he isn't a pro yet (as he states) his competitive advantages are very limited in a level playing field.
Fortunately he has an advantage with a working product and a client. For the product google for similar products. Contractor estimation tools range from $20 to $1000 in the quick google I've done. I personally wouldn't go below $199/seat. Enough to feel serious even if it isn't yet.
As for hourly rates, its different in the UK than in the US. Average minimum appears to be £33.33 via a quick google. The thing you have to understand with software consulting is that it is feast and famine. Rates are higher because there is sometimes downtime between jobs (i.e. no paycheck). You also have to constantly look for your next gig as an independent. As a consultant 10 years ago I was getting $75/hour but it was a sideline thing for me as I had a day job. If I were doing it as my only source of income I'd have to have charged more to cover business expenses, health care, retirement savings, customers that don't pay or pay late and downtime to match my compensation package (salary + benifits).
If he keeps his day job then somewhere around the £33.33 rate is likely okay as he learns.
Personally, I would flat rate it as just a product sale and keep the IP rights to the customizations/features for the first few customers. Probably charge that same £500/seat and £50-100 for an annual support contract/seat where you provide "free" updates during the year. Probably add some kind of volume discount.
That way I could build on the feature set of my product for a little while to make it more substantial. You can draft a consulting contract that gives you the rights to the code you write for a customer as a consultant but fewer customers here would go for that. As a product sale, you're reinvesting revenue into R&D and own the rights. Here anyway....you'll want a legal consult.
Vinea
I dont think I quite understand. Why didn't your friend just setup a database in acesss/filemaker/Appleworks etc? Can you explain what your app does that something say Filemaker couldn't do?
just quickly! You probably could do it in any db application. He tried. He failed. He had someone else do it in Access. They failed.
I did it in RB because I know it, and it gives me complete control. I can write custom functions that you might pull your hair out over in SQL.