A True Desktop Class Mac, or another Cube?

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  • backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon View Post


    http://www.geardigest.com/2007/09/06...ac_or_mac_pro/



    I read the article. It definitely supports your constant and repeated gripe. Macs don't sport the latest and greatest video cards. Obviously that's the only thing you look for in a computer.
  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,190member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by onlooker View Post


    But the point was made none the less, and me and people just like me are perfect examples of it. So in the end you contradicted your self all on your own. Way to go!



    I don't see how I contradicted myself in the slightest. I was making a different point than you were. Perhaps you'd be so good as to clarify.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


    And this really sums up the reason Apple hasn't made a mid-pro.



    Most people blithely assume that Apple does what most companies do, and looks at the cost of production, the competition and adds a markup to get a sticker price. That couldn't be further from the truth.



    We all know Apple meticulously plans the form factor, colour, design and material choices involved in a product. Lesser known is that the same care is applied to product segments, naming and pricing.



    Apple doesn't just make it up as they go along. Detailed studies are commissioned to study consumer habits and desires, and how the market will react to various products and pricing.



    The iPod is probably the best example of this, with the product line first taking every high end dollar available and then diversifying to meet the average consumer. A lot of people balked at the iPod's price when it was announced, and had to eat crow later.



    Market studies are generally conducted under the radar, using companies that don't even mention the name Apple and the questioners probably don't even know who the research is being done for. (If memory serves, Aperture is the one recent product where it became widely known that Apple was looking into the market segment, and that news kicked Adobe into overdrive.)



    The bottom line is that Apple has likely looked into the mid-pro market a few times since the demise of the Cube, and found that not enough consumers in the segment would recognize the value inherent in the Mac OS itself. It would simply lead to them comparing the Mac unfavourably to low-end PCs. Hence, they let the second-hand and clearance market deal with those consumers for now.



    Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That is really all I'm saying. The problem is we have a lot of folks here not reasoning. They just know what they want. Then it changes from "want" to "need," so of course Apple is "ignoring" them.
  • joe_the_dragonjoe_the_dragon Posts: 931member
    will mass hacking of 10.5 to run on any system force apple to make a mid-end system or drop the price of the mac pro?
  • vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon View Post


    will mass hacking of 10.5 to run on any system force apple to make a mid-end system or drop the price of the mac pro?



    Just because there are 2 threads on the xMac doesn't mean you have to post the same message in both.



    Especially a message of such dubious value.
  • rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    ....

    True. Next...



    So you agree that AIO is a niche market and is not a mainstream form factor, thank you.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    ....

    Well, they've sold well, so the reaction couldn't be too bad. Except for the flower power iMac, that is. Puke.



    Quarterly Report________Desktops in 1000s

    12/25/04___________________623

    3/26/05____________________608

    6/25/05____________________687

    12/31/05___________________667

    4/1/06_____________________614

    7/1/06_____________________529

    12/30/06___________________637

    3/31/07____________________626

    7/25/07____________________634

    No, in fact Apple desktop sales have been flat and peaked in the 6/25/05 quarterly report. Laptops are capturing market share at unheard of rates, lamentably, desktops haven't.



    The obvious reason is people appreciate OS X, but not Apple's desktop line-up.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    ....

    I don't need to know them personally. That is not a requirement for this discussion. As to needs, well if I don't know, that's a failing of those who won't enumerate them. I've asked specifically. They won't do so because "deep down in places they don't talk about at parties," they know they don't really "need" the machine at all. So their anger towards Apple is really based on their "wants." And it's pretty clear what they want.



    Your original statement

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SDW2001

    ...

    It's because we have a lot of folks here that base their self worth and image on what computer they have. They think[/b] they have special "needs" when in fact they have "wants." They don't want a used machine. They don't want a plebeian iMac! They're POWER USERS! They're PROSUMERS! I bet most of them don't even really need expandability like they think they do.



    How do you know any of this without knowing a single one of the posters. And I don't see any anger toward Apple at all. I see people posting a request for a computer that more closely meets their needs, they have enumerated and expressed over the course of this and many other similar threads. If I see any anger it is generated towards you for obvious reasons. By telling people what they truly need and their desire for a computer form factor Apple doesn't offer, is flame bait and only elicites corresponding responses.





    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SDW2001

    Then you either haven't been around long enough, or you have incredibly thin skin. I think you know my comment is correct though, which is why it bothers you so much.



    What do I need thick, or for that matter thin skin, to point out your arrogance in presuming what people truly need or want, just stating the obvious. And no, your comment is not correct and I am in no way angry. You're free to flame people any way you see fit, but I also reserve the right to point this out.
  • MarvinMarvin Posts: 13,656member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    I think there's a continuous failure to communicate here. I don't think anyone has a problem with a cheap mac. The discussion is, and has always been, that doing so is not marketable for Apple, and that has been proven.



    There wouldn't be a failure of communication if you and others would listen and stop repeating the same incorrect things over and over again. It's not about cheap any more than a Mac Pro is cheap or a Mini is cheap, it's half way between them with a spec similarly so - if Apple can market both of them then it can market a mid-spec, mid-priced model. It baffles me how such a simple concept can be so hard to understand.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    But I don't get that much why you think iMacs are so expensive. You get a screen, yes. You can run it as a server, but servers don't need video cards. Servicing them is also fairly trivial, on account that hard disks don't fail very often.



    How many iMac screens have you replaced? I've seen people with iMacs on non-Mac forums whose displays have developed glitches and Apple won't replace them and for them to do so would cost half the price of the machine itself. If you don't replace it, you've just lost an entire machine. These people won't be buying Macs again because they want mid-range machines but not ones like the iMac. My brother is a designer and his iMac has a couple of dead pixels on it and a designer I work beside has one dead pixel on his. You really expect them to disrupt their entire workflow just to get a stupid screen fixed? When high resolution LCDs or their replacement is reliable enough to have in a sealed unit then the iMac will be a good idea but not with the technology we have now.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    What do you plan on dong with a screenless computer?



    OMG, I must warn the Mac Pro and Mini buyers, they're about to buy screenless computers, what oh what will they do?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    Lastly, you told me what you have "at work," but I still have no idea what it is that you do at work. Apparently, you need fast GPUs, and the only explanation I can figure is that you must be part of some commune that sells World of Warcraft items on eBay.



    I personally do motion graphics and 3D modelling and rendering among other things. I'm not sure why you'd need a GPU for selling stuff on ebay - do you mean game models or something? Anyway, when I say fast GPU, I just mean faster than the iMac one like a 7600GT. Like I said already though, I don't particularly mind the imac spec and i could probably make peace with the GPU even though I'd prefer an nVidia chipset. My ideal setup would be quad core but I'd settle for a 2.8GHz Core 2 Extreme with an nVidia 7600GT, dual hard drives for a Raid setup but all that without a big 24" mirror. It's not really that much to ask for.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001


    The problem is we have a lot of folks here not reasoning. They just know what they want. Then it changes from "want" to "need," so of course Apple is "ignoring" them.



    Sure it is. Keep believing it all you like but it's just not the case at all.



    At the end of the day, all the reasons that people have given against the move is to try and convince people it's not what they want or need, there are no counter points to the huge number of valid reasons why people want a small headless Mac. I'm sure I don't see you guys standing outside PC stores telling people that they shouldn't want or need mid-range headless PCs so why do it here?
  • rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin


    .....

    At the end of the day, all the reasons that people have given against the move is to try and convince people it's not what they want or need, there are no counter points to the huge number of valid reasons why people want a small headless Mac. I'm sure I don't see you guys standing outside PC stores telling people that they shouldn't want or need mid-range headless PCs so why do it here?



    A point well made.



    And it made me laugh, thank you.
  • mjteixmjteix Posts: 563member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rickag View Post


    Quarterly Report________Desktops in 1000s

    6/25/05____________________687

    12/31/05___________________667

    The obvious reason is people appreciate OS X, but not Apple's desktop line-up.



    I've just realized that the desktops were selling better during 2 quarters BEFORE the Intel switch. Around 50,000 more units per quarter. Yeah, one has to wonder: what's wrong?

    This was the time of the 1.25/1.42/1.50GHz G4 mac Mini, the last days of the eMac, the G5 iMacs (all with dedicated graphics) and the G5 PowerMac single-core and dual-core (late 2005).



    What changed:

    - the Intel Mac mini is more expensive (at that level $100 is not nothing)

    - the Mac Pro starts higher at $2200

    - the iMac has been all over the place, lots of different models and pricing, while lately: new 24" model, no more 17" model, specs bump, price cut but no more $999 model, high-end in the Mac Pro territory... I'm not sure that shows that Apple really knows what to do with the iMac.



    We'll see if Apple's last move on the iMac will change the trend (flat desktop sales) at the october financial CC.

    If not, I would start wondering if another desktop form factor would not be more appropriate...
  • onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mjteix View Post


    I've just realized that the desktops were selling better during 2 quarters BEFORE the Intel switch. Around 50,000 more units per quarter. Yeah, one has to wonder: what's wrong?

    This was the time of the 1.25/1.42/1.50GHz G4 mac Mini, the last days of the eMac, the G5 iMacs (all with dedicated graphics) and the G5 PowerMac single-core and dual-core (late 2005).



    What changed:

    - the Intel Mac mini is more expensive (at that level $100 is not nothing)

    - the Mac Pro starts higher at $2200

    - the iMac has been all over the place, lots of different models and pricing, while lately: new 24" model, no more 17" model, specs bump, price cut but no more $999 model, high-end in the Mac Pro territory... I'm not sure that shows that Apple really knows what to do with the iMac.



    We'll see if Apple's last move on the iMac will change the trend (flat desktop sales) at the october financial CC.

    If not, I would start wondering if another desktop form factor would not be more appropriate...





    Desktop sales are flat because Apple doesn't make a desktop, and anyone looking for one looks at what Apple has to offer and knows that's not what they are looking for.
  • joe_the_dragonjoe_the_dragon Posts: 931member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mjteix View Post


    I've just realized that the desktops were selling better during 2 quarters BEFORE the Intel switch. Around 50,000 more units per quarter. Yeah, one has to wonder: what's wrong?

    This was the time of the 1.25/1.42/1.50GHz G4 mac Mini, the last days of the eMac, the G5 iMacs (all with dedicated graphics) and the G5 PowerMac single-core and dual-core (late 2005).



    What changed:

    - the Intel Mac mini is more expensive (at that level $100 is not nothing)

    - the Mac Pro starts higher at $2200

    - the iMac has been all over the place, lots of different models and pricing, while lately: new 24" model, no more 17" model, specs bump, price cut but no more $999 model, high-end in the Mac Pro territory... I'm not sure that shows that Apple really knows what to do with the iMac.



    We'll see if Apple's last move on the iMac will change the trend (flat desktop sales) at the october financial CC.

    If not, I would start wondering if another desktop form factor would not be more appropriate...



    The mini also has a video chip that uses system ram the older g4 mini had one with 32mb later 64mb of it's own ram. The intel mini may have a better cpu but the older g4 had a better video card.
  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,190member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rickag View Post


    So you agree that AIO is a niche market and is not a mainstream form factor, thank you.



    No.



    Quote:





    Quarterly Report________Desktops in 1000s

    12/25/04___________________623

    3/26/05____________________608

    6/25/05____________________687

    12/31/05___________________667

    4/1/06_____________________614

    7/1/06_____________________529

    12/30/06___________________637

    3/31/07____________________626

    7/25/07____________________634

    No, in fact Apple desktop sales have been flat and peaked in the 6/25/05 quarterly report. Laptops are capturing market share at unheard of rates, lamentably, desktops haven't.



    That's more due to the growth in laptops in and of themselves. One can get comparable power in a laptop now.
    Quote:



    The obvious reason is people appreciate OS X, but not Apple's desktop line-up.



    No. See above.



    Quote:



    Your original statement.....

    How do you know any of this without knowing a single one of the posters.



    I base my statement on their statements and knowledge of what people in general use computers for. I've not seen anyone list decent reasons. Have you?



    Quote:

    And I don't see any anger toward Apple at all.



    Are we on the same board?



    Quote:

    I see people posting a request for a computer that more closely meets their needs, they have enumerated and expressed over the course of this and many other similar threads.



    No. They have not qualified them as "needs" at all. Their "needs" could easily be met by existing products.



    Quote:

    If I see any anger it is generated towards you for obvious reasons. By telling people what they truly need and their desire for a computer form factor Apple doesn't offer, is flame bait and only elicites corresponding responses.



    Well, the truth hurts, what can I say? I'm sorry if you don't like it. However, when people drone on endlessly about a product that doesn't make sense, yeah...I'm going to call them on it.



    Quote:



    What do I need thick, or for that matter thin skin, to point out your arrogance in presuming what people truly need or want, just stating the obvious. And no, your comment is not correct and I am in no way angry. You're free to flame people any way you see fit, but I also reserve the right to point this out.



    And I reserve the right to point out what I have...that this product is not needed and doesn't make sense in the marketplace.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post




    At the end of the day, all the reasons that people have given against the move is to try and convince people it's not what they want or need, there are no counter points to the huge number of valid reasons why people want a small headless Mac. I'm sure I don't see you guys standing outside PC stores telling people that they shouldn't want or need mid-range headless PCs so why do it here?



    Because it's and endless stream of these threads, and they're all the same bitching and whining that people "need" X, Y or Z, Apple is ignoring them, etc. But as I've clearly shown, they don't need it and it doesn't make sense for Apple to release it.
  • onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    No.

    That's more due to the growth in laptops in and of themselves. One can get comparable power in a laptop now.



    No. See above.



    I base my statement on their statements and knowledge of what people in general use computers for. I've not seen anyone list decent reasons. Have you?



    Are we on the same board?



    No. They have not qualified them as "needs" at all. Their "needs" could easily be met by existing products.



    Well, the truth hurts, what can I say? I'm sorry if you don't like it. However, when people drone on endlessly about a product that doesn't make sense, yeah...I'm going to call them on it.



    And I reserve the right to point out what I have...that this product is not needed and doesn't make sense in the marketplace.



    Because it's and endless stream of these threads, and they're all the same bitching and whining that people "need" X, Y or Z, Apple is ignoring them, etc. But as I've clearly shown, they don't need it and it doesn't make sense for Apple to release it.



    Dude are you posting in the correct thread? If you have not noticed 60.66% of people that have looked into this thread are interested in a different desktop than what Apple is offering. If you want to try to get nation wide #'s go right ahead, but in here the majority of users don't like the current lineup.
  • splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    It's not about cheap any more than a Mac Pro is cheap or a Mini is cheap, it's half way between them with a spec similarly so - if Apple can market both of them then it can market a mid-spec, mid-priced model. It baffles me how such a simple concept can be so hard to understand.



    . . .



    I personally do motion graphics and 3D modelling and rendering among other things. I'm not sure why you'd need a GPU for selling stuff on ebay . . .



    First point: we're getting somewhere here. Do you think you know more than Apple's business unit about marketing Apple products? You may notice from my posts that I never try to tell Apple what their market is. I'm wise enough to realize that they know better than I do. Why? Over the last ten years, they have put Apple in a better market position than anyone could have anticipated. To say that they should deviate from this path that has made stock holders and mac users alike so thrilled and instead revert to old strategies that didn't work so well is absolutely asinine. That is my point. That is all anyone is trying to say. When I bring this up, the minitower crowd tells me I'm foolish and makes bold claims that seem to indicate that you are all nothing less than C-level execs at major high-tech firms. It's just so overwhelmingly arrogant to assume such things. I admit to being extremely self-confident myself, but you guys are arrogant to the point of exhibiting mass ignorance rather than self-confidence.



    As in "Motion?" OK: valid point. 3D and 2D graphics, however, are CPU bound. The bit about selling World of Warcraft items on eBay was a joke. It was a good one too, so I'm kind of upset I'm explaining it.
  • rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    No.

    That's more due to the growth in laptops in and of themselves. One can get comparable power in a laptop now.



    Your response here does not in any way explain the remarkable, unheard of increase in Apple's laptop marketshare compared to Apple's non-existent increases in desktop market share.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    No.

    No. See above.



    Flippant responses don't sway my beliefs.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    No.

    I base my statement on their statements and knowledge of what people in general use computers for. I've not seen anyone list decent reasons. Have you?



    No, you have made unqualified statemenst accusing people that they do not know what they really need or want. That is just arrogant.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    No.

    Are we on the same board?



    Yes we do. I haven't searched every post, but I remember seeing no anger toward Apple. I see frustration, but virtually every one here posting owns Apple computers.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    No.

    No. They have not qualified them as "needs" at all. Their "needs" could easily be met by existing products.



    So you say without knowing a single poster here.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    No.

    Well, the truth hurts, what can I say? I'm sorry if you don't like it. However, when people drone on endlessly about a product that doesn't make sense, yeah...I'm going to call them on it.



    To what truth do you refer? Your conjecture that people posting here don't know what they need? If so, you're wrong in this position because there is absolutely no way you can know the needs of the posters here.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    No.

    And I reserve the right to point out what I have...that this product is not needed and doesn't make sense in the marketplace.



    Apparently many people disagree with you, hence, these threads will not go away, here or in the many other Applecentric websites.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    No.

    Because it's and endless stream of these threads, and they're all the same bitching and whining that people "need" X, Y or Z, Apple is ignoring them, etc. But as I've clearly shown, they don't need it and it doesn't make sense for Apple to release it.



    You say they are bitching and whiining, which is flame bait, eliciting like responses. You compound this by claiming to know what people need.



    I see people frustrated with the fact that Apple doesn't sell an xMac and wonder why. When they post their desires you make inflamatory comments that tend to irritate posters and derail any meaningful discussion.
  • sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,190member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by onlooker View Post


    Dude are you posting in the correct thread? If you have not noticed 60.66% of people that have looked into this thread are interested in a different desktop than what Apple is offering. If you want to try to get nation wide #'s go right ahead, but in here the majority of users don't like the current lineup.



    WOW...60% of an internet poll on a Mac fan site! That evidence is damning! Nation wide and global numbers are what matter. We've already been through this. People like us do not represent most consumers.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rickag View Post


    Your response here does not in any way explain the remarkable, unheard of increase in Apple's laptop marketshare compared to Apple's non-existent increases in desktop market share.



    First, I didn't realize we were talking marketshare at all. It seems to me we were discussing Apple sales figures in and of themselves. The point, originally, related to the iMac being a "mainstream" product, which it clearly is. I grant you that Apple's desktop sales have basically been flat, but my problem is with your assertion of the reason being that people in general don't like the offerings. That really doesn't hold water. What is wrong with their offerings? Are you really saying that if a midpro was intro'd, it would fix that problem? No, it's much more likely that Apple's market is more interested in laptops...which is, by the way, true for the Windows market as well. Laptop sales are growing faster across the whole industry.



    Quote:



    Flippant responses don't sway my beliefs.



    Whatever.



    Quote:





    No, you have made unqualified statemenst accusing people that they do not know what they really need or want. That is just arrogant.



    My statements are perfectly qualified. They are based on these member's own posts for God's sake. Person A says he "needs" a midpro. When asked why, he wants "expandability" and says the price of the Mac pro is too high. Also, he doesn't like the iMac. In the entire discussion, I recall encountering exactly one person that had somewhat of a point with regard to owning a really nice display already. But that point is blown out of the water because either he needs only the mini...or he needs something more powerful, like a Mac Pro. Even if that person truly "needs" a midpro, the point is he's not representative of the market as a whole. That is, of course, exactly why Apple hasn't released one.



    Quote:





    Yes we do. I haven't searched every post, but I remember seeing no anger toward Apple. I see frustration, but virtually every one here posting owns Apple computers.



    Oh, now we're going top play semantical games. Frustration, anger, whatever. It's misplaced.



    Quote:





    So you say without knowing a single poster here.



    I really don't see why you keep coming back to this. Why would it be necessary to personally know a poster? It's not like they're doing something with a computer that the rest of us aren't. They either have the money or they don't, which is the only other factor that matters. So it's a matter of money and uses for the machine. The higher your computing needs the more machine one needs, and the more money one has to spend. It's not rocket science. The problem is that we have people that probably are on the verge of needing a Mac Pro for what they want to do, yet don't have the money. Yet, they'd be willing to spend $1500 or so for a much less capable machine, when for the same money, a used Mac Pro or nice iMac would easily suit their needs. Again, not hard ot understand.



    Quote:



    To what truth do you refer? Your conjecture that people posting here don't know what they need? If so, you're wrong in this position because there is absolutely no way you can know the needs of the posters here.



    Here we go again! There are no mythical "needs" that only certain people have. Some need more machine, some need less. Some have more money, some have less. It's not about needs at all...it's about WANTS. The only other explanation for some of the comments people have made is the image of owning an iMac or the ego of buying a used machine. If you disagree, tell me specifically what user situations you think I'm missing.



    Quote:



    Apparently many people disagree with you, hence, these threads will not go away, here or in the many other Applecentric websites.



    Yup, and neither will I.



    Quote:



    You say they are bitching and whiining, which is flame bait, eliciting like responses. You compound this by claiming to know what people need.



    It's not flame bait at all. It's what's happening and has been happening for years. Plenty of folks have posted "Apple is ignoring my needs" over the years. Yet Apple isn't releasing a system. There is a good reason for that.



    Quote:



    I see people frustrated with the fact that Apple doesn't sell an xMac and wonder why. When they post their desires you make inflamatory comments that tend to irritate posters and derail any meaningful discussion.



    I see. It's me. It's me that is doing the irritating! It's not that people are getting irritated because they know they really have no good case for the machine. Gotcha.



    You know, if not for the "bitching and needing" component, I might not care. It's that we've had people lobbing their frustrations at Apple for years, saying they've been ignored and they can't believe how dumb Apple is for not releasing the midpro. They also, as I've said, use the word "need" a lot. If they just talked about a computer they would like to see, that would be one thing. But the problem is, like you, they engage in arguments trying to convince everyone that Apple is wrong and their really IS a market for their dream machine. Then, like one other poster, they ask people like me to prove that there ISN'T a market. It's all quite ridiculous.
  • MarvinMarvin Posts: 13,656member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    First point: we're getting somewhere here. Do you think you know more than Apple's business unit about marketing Apple products? You may notice from my posts that I never try to tell Apple what their market is. I'm wise enough to realize that they know better than I do. Why? Over the last ten years, they have put Apple in a better market position than anyone could have anticipated.



    Ok sure but that is making the assumption that it's by sticking to their product lineup that has pushed them forward. There have been many other changes such as switching to Intel so we get vastly better and cheaper CPUs and the ability to run Windows.



    I don't believe for a second that having a mid-range tower would be damaging to the company given that it's not damaging any of the other hardware companies. It looks to me like Apple want to persuade people into their way of thinking, which is that it's an all-in-one world. In that case it's not so much Apple giving people what they want but telling them what they want. This is why I think the mid-range has been crippled this way because it is the largest audience.



    It's exactly the same with the batteries in their portable devices. People want to replace their own but Apple wants to control this so they seal them in. When people complain about this lock-in, why don't I hear comments like you shouldn't want or need to replace your own batteries? Not everybody minds so much not to buy the product but I'd say almost everyone will disagree.



    Not everyone minds that the iMacs have a built-in screen not to buy it but pretty much everyone I speak to including people who own one disagree with it and would prefer a small tower. I think there is a concern that it will affect imac sales and although I don't think it would be as much as people make out, it would be a concern.



    Personally, I wouldn't care one iota if it did wipe out the iMac because all that it would mean is that Apple (and their market research) was wrong.



    There is of course a low cost, low risk way for Apple to find out if people want a headless Mac and that is to post a questionnaire on their site. They seem to like posting letters and things so why not publish something useful for a change.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    As in "Motion?" OK: valid point. 3D and 2D graphics, however, are CPU bound.



    I know Zbrush is as you pointed out before but that's the exception, most 3D modelling/animation software is hardware accelerated as is Motion, which totally buggers up on a Mini. Even Shake, which is primarily 2D has a lot of interface issues running on a Mini as it's an OpenGL interface.



    But to this you'd reply just get an iMac then but I simply don't like an iMac as having a sealed display is not appealing to me and I can't hook up two internal drives. If I am going to pay double the price of a Mini then I'd like to get more than just a basic dedicated GPU as an improvement.



    To this you'd say get a Mac Pro and I would but it's bigger than I need by at least double and it's 50% more expensive than I need. £800-900 is a perfect price point for me. Take an £800 20" iMac, throw away the screen, use desktop components and a better GPU, two desktop HDs and boom, one happy camper.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    The bit about selling World of Warcraft items on eBay was a joke. It was a good one too, so I'm kind of upset I'm explaining it.



    Sorry, it was totally lost on me. I still don't get it so in case you tell it again when we have this thread next year and Apple still hasn't release one of these Macs, I'd like to get it next time.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001


    WOW...60% of an internet poll on a Mac fan site! That evidence is damning!



    Actually, I'd say that it's our opinion that matters most. When surveys go out about Mac customer satisfaction, they conduct the survey among Mac users.
  • backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Marvin,



    With all due respect (I mean it I'm not looking to fight or insult), I think your really asking for a Mac Pro. The xMac, if it's ever made, simply can't have all the features you want as it would be a cheaper Mac Pro.



    IMO, if an xMac is ever made it will be a headless iMac with maybe a better processor and a slightly higher price when you factor in a monitor. I don't think it'll have multiple internal drives and I don't think you'll be able to get anything better than a mid level graphics card.
  • onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    WOW...60% of an internet poll on a Mac fan site! That evidence is damning! Nation wide and global numbers are what matter. We've already been through this. People like us do not represent most consumers.

    ............



    Mac users would naturally be the highest percentage of people buying Mac computers. ANd as I said. If you get other stats I'll gladly look at them, but you can't discredit it because you don't agree with the majority.
  • splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    Ok sure but that is making the assumption that it's by sticking to their product lineup that has pushed them forward. There have been many other changes such as switching to Intel so we get vastly better and cheaper CPUs and the ability to run Windows.



    You're making too many assumptions. Apple wants to move forward, too. I know you want a cheaper mac really badly, but you can't let that cloud your judgement. The people in Apple's business unit are pros. They know more about their market than anyone else. If Apple releases a low cost tower, then fine, but you can't imagine how domb people sound when they claim they know better than Apple about Apple. Maybe in the 90's this was OK, when Apple was in the shitter and in search of fresh ideas. Now this is not the case. Just let it be.



    The World of Warcraft joke, by the way, is about a massively-multiplayer online game called (you guessed it) World of Warcraft. In the past, people have been known to sell virtual "items" they've collected in-game for real money on eBay. I don't think it's particularly lucrative.
  • rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    WOW...60% of an internet poll on a Mac fan site! That evidence is damning! Nation wide and global numbers are what matter. We've already been through this. People like us do not represent most consumers.



    It's more than you've presented. I gave Apple's desktop sales collected from their quarterly reports, show me your numbers.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    First, I didn't realize we were talking marketshare at all. It seems to me we were discussing Apple sales figures in and of themselves. The point, originally, related to the iMac being a "mainstream" product, which it clearly is. I grant you that Apple's desktop sales have basically been flat, but my problem is with your assertion of the reason being that people in general don't like the offerings. That really doesn't hold water. What is wrong with their offerings? Are you really saying that if a midpro was intro'd, it would fix that problem? No, it's much more likely that Apple's market is more interested in laptops...which is, by the way, true for the Windows market as well. Laptop sales are growing faster across the whole industry.



    It's a simple concept.



    Consumers are switching to Apple computers as a whole, why, IMHO the reason is OS X.

    Apple laptops gaining market share.

    Apple desktops are not gaining market share.



    Simplest reason, Occam's razor and all that, is that people in general appreciate Apple's laptops but not their consumer desktop form factors.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Whatever.



    Flippant responses still don't sway my beliefs.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    My statements are perfectly qualified. They are based on these member's own posts for God's sake. Person A says he "needs" a midpro. When asked why, he wants "expandability" and says the price of the Mac pro is too high. Also, he doesn't like the iMac. In the entire discussion, I recall encountering exactly one person that had somewhat of a point with regard to owning a really nice display already. But that point is blown out of the water because either he needs only the mini...or he needs something more powerful, like a Mac Pro. Even if that person truly "needs" a midpro, the point is he's not representative of the market as a whole. That is, of course, exactly why Apple hasn't released one.



    This doesn't negate the fact that you've no idea about posters needs.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Oh, now we're going top play semantical games. Frustration, anger, whatever. It's misplaced.



    Not me, I just pointed out that most of the anger I've seen posted in this forum is aimed directly at you, not Apple.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    I really don't see why you keep coming back to this. Why would it be necessary to personally know a poster? It's not like they're doing something with a computer that the rest of us aren't. They either have the money or they don't, which is the only other factor that matters. So it's a matter of money and uses for the machine. The higher your computing needs the more machine one needs, and the more money one has to spend. It's not rocket science. The problem is that we have people that probably are on the verge of needing a Mac Pro for what they want to do, yet don't have the money. Yet, they'd be willing to spend $1500 or so for a much less capable machine, when for the same money, a used Mac Pro or nice iMac would easily suit their needs. Again, not hard ot understand.



    Apparently you just don't get it. The very existence of this and the numerous other threads here and at other websites shows that there is a desire for an xMac, that is real.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Here we go again! There are no mythical "needs" that only certain people have. Some need more machine, some need less. Some have more money, some have less. It's not about needs at all...it's about WANTS. The only other explanation for some of the comments people have made is the image of owning an iMac or the ego of buying a used machine. If you disagree, tell me specifically what user situations you think I'm missing.



    Wants... needs, makes no difference to me.

    But your continued belaboring of the actual needs or wants of posters here, especially the manner in which you post, only further incites anger, towards you, not Apple.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Yup, and neither will I.



    Never expected you to stop.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    It's not flame bait at all. It's what's happening and has been happening for years. Plenty of folks have posted "Apple is ignoring my needs" over the years. Yet Apple isn't releasing a system. There is a good reason for that.



    It's not Apple's offerings that are flame bait, it's your postings telling people what they need and the method in which you post it.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    I see. It's me. It's me that is doing the irritating! It's not that people are getting irritated because they know they really have no good case for the machine. Gotcha.



    No, you haven't gotcha nothing.



    AIO advantages

    Easy set up when first bought.

    To some(not all, need I mention the chin) very attractive design

    Reduced desktop footprint/clutter(unless you add external harddrive and/or optical drive)



    xMac advantages

    Separate monitor

    Internal optical drive expansion(less expensive reduces clutter)

    Internal hard drive expansion(less expensive reduces clutter)

    Slots for future technological changes and/or repairs(less expensive reduces clutter)

    Graphic card slot for those that so desire

    ----note the above items increase cost nigh to nothing

    Use of desktop processor reduces cost to Apple and consumer

    Use of desktop hard drive(compared to mini only) reduces cost to Apple and consumer

    Use of desktop ram reduces cost to Apple and consumer.

    Ports on front reduces clutter for perpherals only periodically plugged in(ie.Camcorder, iPod, PDAs)



    Mac mini advantages

    Small

    Separate monitor



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    You know, if not for the "bitching and needing" component, I might not care. It's that we've had people lobbing their frustrations at Apple for years, saying they've been ignored and they can't believe how dumb Apple is for not releasing the midpro. They also, as I've said, use the word "need" a lot. If they just talked about a computer they would like to see, that would be one thing. But the problem is, like you, they engage in arguments trying to convince everyone that Apple is wrong and their really IS a market for their dream machine. Then, like one other poster, they ask people like me to prove that there ISN'T a market. It's all quite ridiculous.



    Obviously there is a market for an xMac, it's only the size of that market that is in question. See the above statements about increasing Apple laptop market share and the lack of increasing Apple desktop market share.
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