Newton2 Size: 5.5-7" Vs. ~10"

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric Monk View Post


I'd add today a 7" Newton/UMPC device though Ireland would argue for the 10" tablet version.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


You know, never say never. Would you care to discuss this a bit?



Sure. Let's go over to this shiny new thread.



First you have to contend with the iPhone—how much can it do? A lot, frankly, but it fails in two areas: long term use[1] & laptop replacement[2].



Then you have to contend with the MacBook—how much can it do? Most anything, constrained by time to crunch CPU/GPU cycles, but it lacks the battery life of a scaled up iPhone & lacks Mutitouch.



So you could have a tablet, which is 10" MacBook - keyboard - OS X[3] + Mobile OS X.



The main problem then becomes convincing customers to accept that this tablet is not like a Windows tablet, and it requires completely different/new/redone programs and you can't just use OS X stuff.



You now also have a very wide gap between the iPhone's power and the tablet's power: do developers target the iPhone or the tablet? Both, but separately? Or are they just locked out of the iPhone despite now having a SDK for Mobile OS X?



You could just stick OS X on the tablet and bolt on Multitouch[3] but it wouldn't work that great I believe (too much UI redesign would be required, and Apple couldn't force 3rd parties to do it), and your battery life is going be the same as a laptop. Still great for vertical markets (and would kick Windows ass, natch) but not something to get people to ditch their laptops for.



Go down to 6-7"—that is Newton size, and certainly lighter—and you have something that is clearly not viewed as a computer so Mobile OS X just makes sense. Furthermore it's much closer in hardware terms to the iPhone, so that helps developers.



It's got power to run iMovie '08 I imagine, or a stripped down version, along with other basic multimedia manipulation and all the other stuff (email, browsing, eBooks, typing) benefits from the much larger screen. Furthermore without the cellular radio always being on you can probably hit 24 hours of battery (as long as WiFi is off, of course) and that is the big difference.



If I could have something that replaces 60% of what I do with my laptop to start, and 90% later as the lightweight versions of OS X programs are ported over and I add an external keyboard, as well as weighing a quarter of my laptop, being smaller in every way, and only needing a charge once a day? I'm sold.



The iPhone price drop and the old Newton shows you can probably hit $700 for this by 2008 (flash prices, mostly) and maybe a bit lower. Once these things sell enough and have a good software library you bring back the eMate (i.e. Mobile OS X in a 10" laptop form, with touchable screen, same 24 odd hours of battery life[4]) & perhaps a 10" tablet form. Heck the eMate2 & a tablet could have the exact same hardware/screen just with the eMate2 having a keyboard.



I remain unsure if the 10" tablet would sell, given the Newton2 at 6" and the eMate2 with a keyboard at the same size, but as long as it and the eMate2 share parts it won't need crazy good sales just solid ones. I'm sure vertical markets would love a 24 hour tablet without the crud of Windows.



My way gets developers on board first for the iPhone and the 6-7" model (maybe 6" would be better, now that I think about it) and then with a solid application base you expand upwards to the 10" laptop & tablet spaces.



A modern subnotebook might be faster then our eMate2, but eMate2 has 3-6 times the battery life and is a third the price. Same difference in the tablet space once you've established the difference between a Macintosh, and an Apple OS X device. I think you have to establish that difference carefully step by step[5], rather then dropping in.





[1] I wouldn't want to read an eBook, or spend a long time browsing websites, or hook up a keyboard and type for a while on an iPhone. I used to think so, but having played around with a friends iPhone (lousy Rogers in Canada not letting me get one) the screen is just too small for longer term use. Great for what it is, not so great to be a laptop replacement.



[2] Email, web use, typing, multimedia, light multimedia manipulation, and games. I'm talking more about the people who do that, over those who actually use the power of their laptop (since that's a small fraction) because of their work.



[3] The level of work it would take to redo the entire OS X interface + programs so they could properly use Multitouch is vast. Multitouch is something very well thought out, most of the time, and to continue to use it like that would require OS X to be completely redone. Otherwise it's a level of usefulness below that of Windows/OS X + pen, since a stylus can simulate a mouse better than a finger.



[4] Yes yes the Foleo. It lacked battery life, applications, and multimedia. With those, plus a good design & not requiring a Treo, it would have been a great machine.



[5] First the iPhone, nothing to do with the Mac. Then Newton2 like a scaled up iPod Touch/iPhone - celluar radio. With the Newton2 you release the SDK for Mobile OS X. Then a little while down the road with an application library and iPhone/iPod Touch/Newton2 doing computer like things without being 'Macs' you can expand towards Macintosh computer size with eMate2 & a tablet.
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Comments

  • addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,667member
    But, as I frequently remark in all such threads, there is this thing about the gap between pocket size and at least ultra portable notebook size.



    That thing being is that the entire appeal of a pocketable device is that it's pocket-abiltiy. They're not that small just because the engineers can pull it off, it's because that's the point at which they become something you can keep on you at all times.



    Whereas the entire appeal of a laptop, even a very small laptop, is that it is a fully featured computer, with an actual keyboard, that you can do real work on for a prolonged period of time without going blind or having your thumbs fall off.



    To my way of thinking, anything between those to kind of natural inflection points ends up including the downsides of both formats and the advantages of neither: not big enough for a "real computer" experience, not small enough to make carrying it with you everywhere practical.



    A seven inch device means you have to carry something to put it in, just like a laptop. A seven inch device means you have to compromise a lot of how you interact with the thing, just like an iPhone.



    I would much prefer that Apple make a subnotebook, 10" screen, under three pounds, and if they want to incorporate Multi-touch and some kind of swivel screen to configure it as a tablet, that would be fine (although I don't actually see Apple doing this anytime soon, it's still too small of a market).



    It's on that latter point that Ireland and I part ways, he's dead set on a "real" tablet, whereas I see the loss of functionality not worth the modest weight savings of leaving off a keyboard.



    Either way, the only "in=between" devices I am aware of that have had any success in the marketplace are primarily gaming platforms, with PMP features thrown in.



    Consider that it would be trivial for Apple to make a "big iPhone", with more horsepower, a 7" screen, and some additional functionality. The touch keyboard would be easier to use, it would be easier to engineer, could include a much larger battery, etc. For all intents and purposes, such a device is already designed, and all you have to do is drop in some bigger case parts and screen.



    But they haven't. I say it's because they know there's no real market there.
  • rich-mysterrich-myster Posts: 771member
    the new newton is getting those new processers that apple has been scooping up. that's what will make them better.
  • irelandireland Posts: 15,278member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Electric Monk


    The main problem then becomes convincing customers to accept that this tablet is not like a Windows tablet...



    Apple is more than capable of this. There was touch-screen phones before the iPhone, yet consumers knew the iPhone was different from the start. One public demo of multi-touch on a Mac tablet and people would be weak at the knees. I could imagine Steve on stage; "This is just like the iPhone. The coolest interface on the planet is now coming to the Mac." They may even not call it a tablet, as to differentiate it even further from the Windows tablet market. Mac touch anyone? [still reading]
  • irelandireland Posts: 15,278member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Electric Monk


    ...and it requires completely different/new/redone programs and you can't just use OS X stuff.



    Never said it was going to be easy.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Electric Monk


    You now also have a very wide gap between the iPhone's power and the tablet's power: do developers target the iPhone or the tablet? Both, but separately? Or are they just locked out of the iPhone despite now having a SDK for Mobile OS X?



    iPhone SDK, iTunes Apple approved 3rd party apps announcement Macworld '08.
  • irelandireland Posts: 15,278member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Electric Monk


    Go down to 6-7"—that is Newton size, and certainly lighter—and you have something that is clearly not viewed as a computer so Mobile OS X just makes sense. Furthermore it's much closer in hardware terms to the iPhone, so that helps developers.



    Point is it's too close. It doesn't give consumers easy decisions. How Many Mac users are going to buy an iPhone as their phone, and a 6-7" PDA ad their PDA? Not many, which is bad business for Apple, and the lines are too blurry between both products, something which Apple generally tries to avoid. As I said I believe iPhone SDK is coming, and that should sort our some of the issues you have here. And it should give it the PDA functionality people have been craving - Newton who? Addabox is spot on about that 6-&" dilemma, it's why the PDA market never really took off, it's to big to fit in your pocket, yet it's too small to be work useful.



    This tablet, or slate, or whatever they call it will be a Mac, let's make no mistakes about that, it wont be a phone or a PDA or anything of the sort, it will be a Multi-touch Mac. It will be for all those folks who already have an iMac, a Mac Pro, or a MacBook, and want to carry around some of that data most everywhere. Because they want to edit it everywhere they will need an ultra-portable Mac, which is the big whole in Apple's line-up.



    Besides, it's hard to get real work done with only 6 or 7" to play with. The ultra-portableness of this device will be as much about it's thinness and lightness, as its 10" screen size. A Mac you can take anywhere. If you're are going to go to the trouble of carrying around a 7" slab, why not take a far more useful 10" slob.



    Neither will fit in your pocket anyway, and the 10" would have a full size keyboard.



    The other reason I am so passionate about the 10" tablet is because I desperately want one, I can envision it be very very useful to me, and I think (and hope) Apple is looking at it the same way. I'm literally holding off buying an Apple notebook because of this imaginary device - that's how much I believe on the idea.



    Would I hold off on buying a TV because I think Apple's going to make one? Not likely - although I think it's going to happen - I don't think it will happen now until Fall '08 at the earliest.
  • hobbithobbit Posts: 532member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    there is this thing about the gap between pocket size and at least ultra portable notebook size.



    I had a Newton 2100 and while it was a great device (I still miss many of its features) eventually I ended up not using it.



    Why was that? Was it not powerful enough? Was it not good at what it was doing? Neither.

    Yet eventually I realised it's the size vs. features that bothered me.



    It was too big and heavy to be carried in my pockets. And yet it wasn't as powerful as a notebook in regards to data entry (lack of keyboard) and screen resolution. (I actually had a Newton keyboard as well, but carrying both was even bulkier than a small notebook.)



    As the Newton didn't fit into my pockets, I had to carry an extra bag to put it in.

    And even when carrying a bag, normally I'd just leave it on the floor. As I don't have any valuables in there, I don't mind. But when I had my Newton with me, I was always paranoid about my bag getting stolen. So I ended up carrying the bag on my shoulder all time. Which annoyed me further.



    But if I always have to carry the Newton in a bag anyway, I might as well get a small notebook. As fast as the Newton's handwriting recognition was, I can still type much faster on a keyboard. And the Newton's screen resolution isn't as good either.





    What's really needed is a device the size of the Newton - when open, but collapsable to the size of an iPhone when closed.

    But folding displays are still a little while off.





    Until then, any device no matter how clever, will have a hard time establishing itself if its size is between iPhone and subnotebook.
  • buddhabuddha Posts: 386member
    10">6-7"



    Size does matter .
  • irelandireland Posts: 15,278member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hobBIT


    Until then, any device no matter how clever, will have a hard time establishing itself if its size is between iPhone and subnotebook.



    I agree. 10" ultra-portable Mac tablet is the way to go
  • kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hobBIT View Post


    But if I always have to carry the Newton in a bag anyway, I might as well get a small notebook. As fast as the Newton's handwriting recognition was, I can still type much faster on a keyboard. And the Newton's screen resolution isn't as good either.



    Why does it have to be XOR? I can see Apple making one of those convertible tablets where you can swivel the screen around and and snap it over the keyboard to make it a tablet. Best of both worlds. Fast data entry with a real keyboard and the easy handling of a tablet when you don't need a keyboard. There are lots of tablets like that on the market already. Apple's distinction would be they could probably make it ultrathin, so it really would feel like a dedicated tablet rather than a folded laptop. As for the resolution, displays have come a long way since the Newton. They can pack 1280x768 into a 10" display nowadays, plenty for serious work, although at the cost of a bit of eyestrain.
  • admactaniumadmactanium Posts: 812member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    But, as I frequently remark in all such threads, there is this thing about the gap between pocket size and at least ultra portable notebook size.



    That thing being is that the entire appeal of a pocketable device is that it's pocket-abiltiy. They're not that small just because the engineers can pull it off, it's because that's the point at which they become something you can keep on you at all times.



    Whereas the entire appeal of a laptop, even a very small laptop, is that it is a fully featured computer, with an actual keyboard, that you can do real work on for a prolonged period of time without going blind or having your thumbs fall off.



    To my way of thinking, anything between those to kind of natural inflection points ends up including the downsides of both formats and the advantages of neither: not big enough for a "real computer" experience, not small enough to make carrying it with you everywhere practical.



    A seven inch device means you have to carry something to put it in, just like a laptop. A seven inch device means you have to compromise a lot of how you interact with the thing, just like an iPhone.



    I would much prefer that Apple make a subnotebook, 10" screen, under three pounds, and if they want to incorporate Multi-touch and some kind of swivel screen to configure it as a tablet, that would be fine (although I don't actually see Apple doing this anytime soon, it's still too small of a market).



    It's on that latter point that Ireland and I part ways, he's dead set on a "real" tablet, whereas I see the loss of functionality not worth the modest weight savings of leaving off a keyboard.



    Either way, the only "in=between" devices I am aware of that have had any success in the marketplace are primarily gaming platforms, with PMP features thrown in.



    Consider that it would be trivial for Apple to make a "big iPhone", with more horsepower, a 7" screen, and some additional functionality. The touch keyboard would be easier to use, it would be easier to engineer, could include a much larger battery, etc. For all intents and purposes, such a device is already designed, and all you have to do is drop in some bigger case parts and screen.



    But they haven't. I say it's because they know there's no real market there.



    actually i could really use an in-between device for around the house. sure i won't necessary take it everywhere with me or really anywhere outside of the house. but as much as i read on the internet as opposed to paper, it makes more and more sense. when i'm not working, my interaction with my laptop computer is >90% reading, <10% inputting. so why do i need to carry that large keyboard around with me all the time? i have a MBP for when i travel and i need to be able to work while away from my workstation. but that doesn't mean there's no space for a reader-type device. in fact, a larger iphone would be just about perfect. it wouldn't preclude me from getting an iphone either. it's just an additional device that would use a similar interface.
  • addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,667member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by admactanium View Post


    actually i could really use an in-between device for around the house. sure i won't necessary take it everywhere with me or really anywhere outside of the house. but as much as i read on the internet as opposed to paper, it makes more and more sense. when i'm not working, my interaction with my laptop computer is >90% reading, <10% inputting. so why do i need to carry that large keyboard around with me all the time? i have a MBP for when i travel and i need to be able to work while away from my workstation. but that doesn't mean there's no space for a reader-type device. in fact, a larger iphone would be just about perfect. it wouldn't preclude me from getting an iphone either. it's just an additional device that would use a similar interface.



    But doesn't that sound like a pretty limited market niche for Apple to invest in? "The Mac you use on the sofa when you're not at your desk but probably won't want to take outside"?



    I mean, I get the appeal, wouldn't mind it myself, but I can't quite see actually spending a fair amount of money just to save myself from having to move my laptop around the house.
  • taskisstaskiss Posts: 1,212member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hobBIT View Post


    I had a Newton 2100 and while it was a great device (I still miss many of its features) eventually I ended up not using it.



    Why was that? Was it not powerful enough? Was it not good at what it was doing? Neither.

    Yet eventually I realised it's the size vs. features that bothered me.



    It was too big and heavy to be carried in my pockets. And yet it wasn't as powerful as a notebook in regards to data entry (lack of keyboard) and screen resolution. (I actually had a Newton keyboard as well, but carrying both was even bulkier than a small notebook.)



    As the Newton didn't fit into my pockets, I had to carry an extra bag to put it in.

    And even when carrying a bag, normally I'd just leave it on the floor. As I don't have any valuables in there, I don't mind. But when I had my Newton with me, I was always paranoid about my bag getting stolen. So I ended up carrying the bag on my shoulder all time. Which annoyed me further.



    But if I always have to carry the Newton in a bag anyway, I might as well get a small notebook. As fast as the Newton's handwriting recognition was, I can still type much faster on a keyboard. And the Newton's screen resolution isn't as good either.





    What's really needed is a device the size of the Newton - when open, but collapsable to the size of an iPhone when closed.

    But folding displays are still a little while off.





    Until then, any device no matter how clever, will have a hard time establishing itself if its size is between iPhone and subnotebook.



    I still own and operate a MessagePad 120 (on my desk at home as a sort of pad of paper thingy). Your point that it's too big is spot on. The iPhone would be a perfect replacement if speech recognition were available.



    I have my hopes, but I don't expect it any time soon.
  • admactaniumadmactanium Posts: 812member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    But doesn't that sound like a pretty limited market niche for Apple to invest in? "The Mac you use on the sofa when you're not at your desk but probably won't want to take outside"?



    I mean, I get the appeal, wouldn't mind it myself, but I can't quite see actually spending a fair amount of money just to save myself from having to move my laptop around the house.



    yeah, i'll admit it's limited usage. but as our generation and the next look to get their information and news from the internet more and more, i can see it becoming much larger. e-books have never really taken off for one reason or another, probably due to using monochrome lcd displays with low contrast and/or color ones with bad battery life. if apple can come up with a really good reader that has good battery life and contrast in all lighting situations, then they'd have a pretty good winner on their hands.



    imagine if they could put it on a wimax or wireless network. you could buy books from the itunes(?) book store and just download them wherever you are. or you could get your magazines delivered to you anywhere you are. just downloaded directly into your reader pad.
  • jousterjouster Posts: 460member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hobBIT View Post




    But if I always have to carry the Newton in a bag anyway, I might as well get a small notebook.



    ++



    I'm usually wearing a jacket while traveling, and a 7" screen would easily fit in the inside pocket. I've been doing useful work on an oldish Clie or a Motorola Q for a while, so a 7" screen would be heaven.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by admactanium View Post


    e-books have never really taken off for one reason or another, probably due to using monochrome lcd displays with low contrast and/or color ones with bad battery life. if apple can come up with a really good reader that has good battery life and contrast in all lighting....



    I'd say it was due to their costing upwards of $700. But as part of a multi-purpose device..... Steve purports to dislike convergence, but his products seem to be telling a different story.
  • fishyesquefishyesque Posts: 725member
    I'd personally have to say 10" mac, for the sake of the Japanese market. Anyone?
  • admactaniumadmactanium Posts: 812member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jouster View Post


    ++



    I'm usually wearing a jacket while traveling, and a 7" screen would easily fit in the inside pocket. I've been doing useful work on an oldish Clie or a Motorola Q for a while, so a 7" screen would be heaven.



    not to mention, the keyboard attached to a screen at >90 degree angle isn't always the best form factor. in fact, in many situation it's terrible. using a tablet type device would be preferable on a plane or anywhere with limited space. also, laptops cannot be held with one hand and operate with the other.
  • fishyesquefishyesque Posts: 725member
    Multitouch FTW I've played around with typing on a flat surface with no tactile feedback, and i was fine.

    Physical keyboards are so out. Except not. Too many people can't give them up. Sighhh
  • irelandireland Posts: 15,278member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fishyesque View Post


    I'd personally have to say 10" mac, for the sake of the Japanese market. Anyone?



    Could even be 11". I'm now calling it either 10" or 11". I think that's a perfect size.
  • fishyesquefishyesque Posts: 725member
    True, it's a toss up. I have an interview at the only Apple store in my state in a couple hours, I hope I get the job. I need it to satisfy my lust Haha, ok, Ireland, predict the release. Pick a month, any month. Or maybe a range of two months.
  • irelandireland Posts: 15,278member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fishyesque View Post


    True, it's a toss up. I have an interview at the only Apple store in my state in a couple hours, I hope I get the job. I need it to satisfy my lust Haha, ok, Ireland, predict the release. Pick a month, any month. Or maybe a range of two months.



    Firstly I would like to state that just because I think Apple's going to do a multi-touch tablet-type device, it doesn't mean that I automatically think they will never do an ultra-portable notebook.



    I could predict a release, but what's the point, we all know Apple's totally unpredictable anyway.



    Ok, so I'll humor you if I must then: Second half of 2008, 11" Mac touch, sometime around September.
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