Does anyone have an idea of how TM would interact with Parallels? It would seem problematic, because whenever Parallels is active, you'd be making small changes to the virtual drive for your Parallels machine, meaning that a multi-GB file would need to be copied over every hour. Is this how it works?
If you set it to backup the virtual drive, then yeah it'd do a new file every hour. So I would presume you would simply not backup the virtual drive!!! (Perhaps Parallels will make a special service to help backup your Windows folders?).
Currently in Parallels, it has the option of using your Mac home folders as your Windows home folders... I'd suggest that you do that so it can backup your Windows files. I haven't used the latest parallels, but the old version was much slower using Mac files than the local virtual files... so for something like MS Money, I'd simply save my daily MS Money backup to the Mac folder, but leave my active database file on the virtual drive (hence not backed up).
apple hasn't clarified my doubts that's why I ask here for those of you who have actually tried TM.
hourly backups are only kept for a period of time (a week?) then those are tosed and only weekly and then monthly backups are kept; all according to what i've read here and in the guide.
if file A is in the hourly backup but not on the mac's drive when the weekly/monthly backup is done, ultimately file A will be lost when hourly backups are deleted by Time Machine.
or so it seems and that's why I think it's weird...
At this time TM is tightly coupled to Address Book, Mail and iPhoto. All three employ data bases so losing an Address/contact, an Email or a photo in an Album/Event is not like deleting/losing a file. This is why TM can magically restore items for Address Book, Mail and iPhoto.
Deleting files is handled by TM as has been explained already.
Changing a byte in a data base will cause that data base to get backed up on the next TM snapshot. Deleting a byte in a data base will also have the same effect.
It will be wise to exclude the Downloads folder from backups (especially for large downloads that could takes several hours) as TM snapshots will pickup these files (or parts that have been downloaded) multiple times. Plus, typically the downloaded files get moved from the Downloads folder to other places and will subsequently get picked up again by the next TM snapshot.
If Parallels churns data in its virtual volume it will get picked every time by the TM snapshots. It will be the users choice to exclude this from TM snapshots as they wish.
TM is not your regular/traditional backup. It's a compromise between the traditional base+incremental backups and the easy data restoration, system restorations and simplified data restoration for some Applications such as Address Book, iPhoto and Mail along with keeping the amount of data backed up to be useful and of reasonable size. It could be that Apple adds others to be tightly coupled to TM. Third party Apps can also do the same thing with their Apps as Apple has done with their three Apps.
Apple wants to have TM be easy to use by Joe user who quite likely today perform no backups at all. Joe user doesn't want to understand the intricacies of backups. Just plug a 500gig HD in and turn TM on and then forget about it until the time arises to retrieve some lost data, be it a file, photo, contact, Email and even the whole complete system.
It will be of interest to see how this TM feature grows over time.
At this time TM is tightly coupled to Address Book, Mail and iPhoto. All three employ data bases so losing an Address/contact, an Email or a photo in an Album/Event is not like deleting/losing a file. This is why TM can magically restore items for Address Book, Mail and iPhoto.
Deleting files is handled by TM as has been explained already.
Changing a byte in a data base will cause that data base to get backed up on the next TM snapshot. Deleting a byte in a data base will also have the same effect.
It will be wise to exclude the Downloads folder from backups (especially for large downloads that could takes several hours) as TM snapshots will pickup these files (or parts that have been downloaded) multiple times. Plus, typically the downloaded files get moved from the Downloads folder to other places and will subsequently get picked up again by the next TM snapshot.
If Parallels churns data in its virtual volume it will get picked every time by the TM snapshots. It will be the users choice to exclude this from TM snapshots as they wish.
TM is not your regular/traditional backup. It's a compromise between the traditional base+incremental backups and the easy data restoration, system restorations and simplified data restoration for some Applications such as Address Book, iPhoto and Mail along with keeping the amount of data backed up to be useful and of reasonable size. It could be that Apple adds others to be tightly coupled to TM. Third party Apps can also do the same thing with their Apps as Apple has done with their three Apps.
Apple wants to have TM be easy to use by Joe user who quite likely today perform no backups at all. Joe user doesn't want to understand the intricacies of backups. Just plug a 500gig HD in and turn TM on and then forget about it until the time arises to retrieve some lost data, be it a file, photo, contact, Email and even the whole complete system.
It will be of interest to see how this TM feature grows over time.
well let's wait for a bunch a Joe's to start complaining because they cannot go back in time and restore a file that Apple insinuated he could recover ("Go back in time to restore any file on your system").
Don't get me wrong.. TM is a great idea... but those limitations made me think. That's all.
I read all the replies and an interesting discussion is going on. I do agree that complaints are probably coming if John user cannot restore a specific file because it is not in his monthly backup, since Steve so deliberately stressed this as a feature. On the other hand, how often is it going to happen? People do not very often delete files for over a month and then suddenly remember that they need it again I think. And Apple does not say 'you can delete all your files, because they will be in your backup...'
Then 2 questions:
1. Asked before: will there be any way to purge a file from the TM system. Waiting for over a month would probably do the trick, but I can image that someone would like to swipe away confidential files somewhat quicker (like the minutes of an illegal syndicate made on your macbook )
2. It is clear that TM will work with an airport extreme and a connected drive. But will it work with an airport express as well?
At this time TM is tightly coupled to Address Book, Mail and iPhoto. All three employ data bases so losing an Address/contact, an Email or a photo in an Album/Event is not like deleting/losing a file. This is why TM can magically restore items for Address Book, Mail and iPhoto.
Deleting files is handled by TM as has been explained already.
Changing a byte in a data base will cause that data base to get backed up on the next TM snapshot. Deleting a byte in a data base will also have the same effect.
It will be wise to exclude the Downloads folder from backups (especially for large downloads that could takes several hours) as TM snapshots will pickup these files (or parts that have been downloaded) multiple times. Plus, typically the downloaded files get moved from the Downloads folder to other places and will subsequently get picked up again by the next TM snapshot.
If Parallels churns data in its virtual volume it will get picked every time by the TM snapshots. It will be the users choice to exclude this from TM snapshots as they wish.
TM is not your regular/traditional backup. It's a compromise between the traditional base+incremental backups and the easy data restoration, system restorations and simplified data restoration for some Applications such as Address Book, iPhoto and Mail along with keeping the amount of data backed up to be useful and of reasonable size. It could be that Apple adds others to be tightly coupled to TM. Third party Apps can also do the same thing with their Apps as Apple has done with their three Apps.
Apple wants to have TM be easy to use by Joe user who quite likely today perform no backups at all. Joe user doesn't want to understand the intricacies of backups. Just plug a 500gig HD in and turn TM on and then forget about it until the time arises to retrieve some lost data, be it a file, photo, contact, Email and even the whole complete system.
It will be of interest to see how this TM feature grows over time.
Stop it!
Time Machine backs up a file. It remains on your designated external drive until you physically remove it.
Delete the file from you computer deliberately, by accident or by foul play and you simply restore the file from the backup when you want to.
Revise the file and on the next backup, Time Machine will attach the change. If the file has been removed from you computer in the meantime, Time Machine does nothing to the backup. There is nothing to see, check or update.
As such, you can literally and purposely, accidently delete and/or fry your drive and use Time Machine to restore you machine to any time in history that has been backed up to your designated external drive.
Think about it. It is called Time Machine. And for a reason.
Time Machine backs up a file. It remains on your designated external drive until you physically remove it.
Delete the file from you computer deliberately, by accident or by foul play and you simply restore the file from the backup when you want to.
Revise the file and on the next backup, Time Machine will attach the change. If the file has been removed from you computer in the meantime, Time Machine does nothing to the backup. There is nothing to see, check or update.
As such, you can literally and purposely, accidently delete and/or fry your drive and use Time Machine to restore you machine to any time in history that has been backed up to your designated external drive.
Think about it. It is called Time Machine. And for a reason.
The question is what does it mean to have hourly/daily backups eliminated.
How would that work? Let's assume I spend 8 hours at work working on one file. Through the course of the day my file, work.pages, ends up being TimeMachined into the equivalent of work1.pages, work2.pages...work8.pages (yet they all are named work.pages).
If I go back in time through TimeMachine on an hourly basis, I see each version of work.pages as just work.pages in the finder even though they represent work1.pages, work2.pages, etc.
That makes sense and is a great solution.
Now, however, Apple tells me that it is going to delete the hourly versions once the next day starts. I suppose it could keep 8 versions of this file, but when I TimeMachine back, which one will it present to me?? The latest or all 8 (with copy numbers to display them all in a Finder Window)??
Absent any indication that it is all 8 (and I have seen no evidence of such version numbering), it seems logical to assume that the 1 file it will show for the previous day will be the last one.
Now, what about a File that has been eliminated from the 8th hourly backup, but was around on the 7th hourly backup? When the daily purge occurs would TimeMachine keep the one from the 7th backup, i.e. that TimeMachine rolls up all backups when the purge occurs to keep the latest version of ALL files that it ever backed up during the relevant time frame.
The question I have is when one goes back in Time to this day that has been purged of the hourlies, what do I see and what is available to restore?
1) All files that ever existed on that day with every version of any file that changed.
2) The last version of all files that ever existed on that day?
3) Just the files that existed when the last backup ran before the purge?
Similar issues/questions arise for the weekly and monthly purges.
The question is what does it mean to have hourly/daily backups eliminated.…The question I have is when one goes back in Time to this day that has been purged of the hourlies, what do I see and what is available to restore?
1) All files that ever existed on that day with every version of any file that changed.
2) The last version of all files that ever existed on that day?
3) Just the files that existed when the last backup ran before the purge?
Similar issues/questions arise for the weekly and monthly purges.
First of all, forget or disregard "How Time Machine works"
I really don't know of a simpler way to describe its functionality.
Just remember that using Time Machine as directed, i.e., attaching an external drive, assigning it to Time Machine and keeping it live and connected everytime you turn on your computer, you'll be able to restore virtually every snapshot of your computer as you create, revise or delete files on your computer.
If you look at the Demo carefully, you'll see Time Machine move from one day to the next at the same time of day, i.e., "6:33 PM." However, if you notice the list of files sorted by "Last Used Date," it appears to be a Spotlight "Result" listing every "Italian Design" file which have been created or altered within minutes of each other and beyond. Are the 'Documents' as listed the same? I don't know. It just seems that Time Machine could be quite granular in its backup process.
Whatever, I feel quite confident that I will be able to back up my entire computer, frag all those files I hesitate to permanently delete and keep my machine lean and mean…and a lot easier and faster than I do now. More important, at anytime, I can travel back in time and restore files that I would normally have to search through hundreds of DAT tapes, CD's or DVDs now.
Time Machine backs up a file. It remains on your designated external drive until you physically remove it.
Delete the file from you computer deliberately, by accident or by foul play and you simply restore the file from the backup when you want to.
Revise the file and on the next backup, Time Machine will attach the change. If the file has been removed from you computer in the meantime, Time Machine does nothing to the backup. There is nothing to see, check or update.
As such, you can literally and purposely, accidently delete and/or fry your drive and use Time Machine to restore you machine to any time in history that has been backed up to your designated external drive.
Think about it. It is called Time Machine. And for a reason.
I'm not a developer, but from speaking to those who are, and who have extensively wrung out 10.5 over the time Apple has had it out there, what you are saying is correct.
What I'm seeing here is a lot of speculation about how things are done at various levels in the OS, and I'm wondering if people here really know what they're talking about
The OS version every developer has now is the one that will be VERY close to the one released.
Instead of all of this silly arguing back and forth, simply take a look.
Are you all saying that while you are all willing to argue this to death without knowing anything, none of you actually have a TimeMachine drive set up and working?
If not, then nothing said here has been of any value whatsoever.
Someone, set up a drive. All you have to do is to look at what is being saved. This could have been done a month ago. Once you see what is being done, then you will know for certain, and all of this disagreement can end.
Many of the arguments we have here can't easily be proven one way or the other, so they go on for pages. But this one shouldn't even be happening. Either it does what Apple says, or it doesn't. It can be easily found out.
If someone is going to say that it doesn't work yet, so they can't find out, then it's so late in the process it won't be available in the release either.
So, will someone please give correct information from an actual working system?
Can you set Time Machine to also back up the Trash? Probably wouldn't make a good default, but there's now technical reason why it couldn't. That would alleviate a lot of these concerns, I'm thinking.
What I'm seeing here is a lot of speculation about how things are done at various levels in the OS, and I'm wondering if people here really know what they're talking about
Actually, what you're seeing is people here looking at all the information we have on "how it works", in contrast to the marketing description, and then asking about a hole that seems to be there in a reasonably unique situation.
For almost any regular users usage, it will work "as advertised".
[edit: The actual article says the deletion "maintains a complete, extensive set of backups that balance out the demands for backup frequency versus disk space."]
On a related note and as I said before, deleting files because they're in the backup is a bad idea - create an archive instead. It's similar to users who store their read emails in the trash because it's convenient.
Quote:
Someone, set up a drive. All you have to do is to look at what is being saved. This could have been done a month ago. Once you see what is being done, then you will know for certain, and all of this disagreement can end.
Good idea!
Could someone with Leopard:
1) create File1 at noon, and delete it 1.5hrs later. Check it's in Time Machine.
2) Create File2 at 2pm, and delete it 1.5 hrs later. Check its in Time machine.
3) Wait till the hourly backups are deleted (2 days later, to be safe?)
4) see if both File1 and File2 are in the daily backup....
The OS version every developer has now is the one that will be VERY close to the one released.
Instead of all of this silly arguing back and forth, simply take a look.
Are you all saying that while you are all willing to argue this to death without knowing anything, none of you actually have a TimeMachine drive set up and working?
If not, then nothing said here has been of any value whatsoever.
Someone, set up a drive. All you have to do is to look at what is being saved. This could have been done a month ago. Once you see what is being done, then you will know for certain, and all of this disagreement can end.
Many of the arguments we have here can't easily be proven one way or the other, so they go on for pages. But this one shouldn't even be happening. Either it does what Apple says, or it doesn't. It can be easily found out.
If someone is going to say that it doesn't work yet, so they can't find out, then it's so late in the process it won't be available in the release either.
So, will someone please give correct information from an actual working system?
Thank you.
I'd love to post some definitive statements for you but cannot until Leo becomes GA. Sorry. I can say I've been testing TM for Apple for the past 12 months. Just be aware that the fine print on Apple's TM web pages state they reserve the right to change things. All your enquiries have merit IMO, as do others. Shouldn't be long now before much of what is being asked about here can be responded with definitive and correct answers.
Excellent article! I really like the explanation of how it's implemented. It seems quite straight forward to me... I dislike the cosmic-looking background in the Time Machine UI. IMHO it looks a little tacky.
Also, I hope Apple does finally introduce ZFS so a changed file doesn't mean a whole new copy of the file taking up hard disc space. Actually, just thinking about it, I wonder if the whole new version of that file does need to be copied to the backup disc. Surely just the differences between the modified file and the older backup file need to be backed up. Would this functionality really need ZFS to work? RSync kind of works in this manner, doesn't it?
Actually, what you're seeing is people here looking at all the information we have on "how it works", in contrast to the marketing description, and then asking about a hole that seems to be there in a reasonably unique situation.
For almost any regular users usage, it will work "as advertised".
[edit: The actual article says the deletion "maintains a complete, extensive set of backups that balance out the demands for backup frequency versus disk space."]
On a related note and as I said before, deleting files because they're in the backup is a bad idea - create an archive instead. It's similar to users who store their read emails in the trash because it's convenient.
Good idea!
Could someone with Leopard:
1) create File1 at noon, and delete it 1.5hrs later. Check it's in Time Machine.
2) Create File2 at 2pm, and delete it 1.5 hrs later. Check its in Time machine.
3) Wait till the hourly backups are deleted (2 days later, to be safe?)
4) see if both File1 and File2 are in the daily backup....
I concur, this is a great idea. In fact, by posing my questions above I was hoping that someone, unlike me, who has access to a nearly GM version would be able to offer insight.
It is not that I am complaining or bitching, I am just trying to discover what, exactly, are the capabilities and limitations of TM. The article offer much new information but seemed to leave these questions open.
I really don't know of a simpler way to describe its functionality.
Just remember that using Time Machine as directed, i.e., attaching an external drive, assigning it to Time Machine and keeping it live and connected everytime you turn on your computer, you'll be able to restore virtually every snapshot of your computer as you create, revise or delete files on your computer.
If you look at the Demo carefully, you'll see Time Machine move from one day to the next at the same time of day, i.e., "6:33 PM." However, if you notice the list of files sorted by "Last Used Date," it appears to be a Spotlight "Result" listing every "Italian Design" file which have been created or altered within minutes of each other and beyond. Are the 'Documents' as listed the same? I don't know. It just seems that Time Machine could be quite granular in its backup process.
Whatever, I feel quite confident that I will be able to back up my entire computer, frag all those files I hesitate to permanently delete and keep my machine lean and mean?and a lot easier and faster than I do now. More important, at anytime, I can travel back in time and restore files that I would normally have to search through hundreds of DAT tapes, CD's or DVDs now.
I took a look at this Demo and it appears to me that you get in that section where you see the "Italian Design" file is the *one* keynote file and a bunch of documents, each of those with different time stamps. Note that they are not listed as keynote files, just documents.
It seem pretty evident that you get, after the Daily rollup of hourly versions, a single version of the file on the 6:33 snapshot which is, most assuredly, the last one. And, as I mentioned above, how could Apple provide an interface to display all hourly versions of a file when the daily snapshot has only one instance, i.e. the 6:33 rollup??? They would need version numbers and/or date stamps to help the user identify which one to restore.
With no evidence of versioning, it looks like the result is option 2 or 3 in my post earlier.
That leaves the real question of do the rollups (either daily or monthly) keep only the latest version of only those files that STILL exist in the last snapshot before the rollup (option 2) or do they keep the latest version of all files that ever existed in any snapshot in the rollup (option 3).
This is an important difference because, both via children and my own absent mindedness, I have deleted files that I wish I could have gotten back and this is a feature specifically touted.
slightly depressed that it sounds like i cannot have TM backup to my NAS which is connected to all the macs in my studio via AFP. now that would be cool!
slightly depressed that it sounds like i cannot have TM backup to my NAS which is connected to all the macs in my studio via AFP. now that would be cool!
Supposedly, a network drive can be used. I'm not familiar with the specifics.
Comments
Does anyone have an idea of how TM would interact with Parallels? It would seem problematic, because whenever Parallels is active, you'd be making small changes to the virtual drive for your Parallels machine, meaning that a multi-GB file would need to be copied over every hour. Is this how it works?
If you set it to backup the virtual drive, then yeah it'd do a new file every hour. So I would presume you would simply not backup the virtual drive!!! (Perhaps Parallels will make a special service to help backup your Windows folders?).
Currently in Parallels, it has the option of using your Mac home folders as your Windows home folders... I'd suggest that you do that so it can backup your Windows files. I haven't used the latest parallels, but the old version was much slower using Mac files than the local virtual files... so for something like MS Money, I'd simply save my daily MS Money backup to the Mac folder, but leave my active database file on the virtual drive (hence not backed up).
apple hasn't clarified my doubts that's why I ask here for those of you who have actually tried TM.
hourly backups are only kept for a period of time (a week?) then those are tosed and only weekly and then monthly backups are kept; all according to what i've read here and in the guide.
if file A is in the hourly backup but not on the mac's drive when the weekly/monthly backup is done, ultimately file A will be lost when hourly backups are deleted by Time Machine.
or so it seems and that's why I think it's weird...
At this time TM is tightly coupled to Address Book, Mail and iPhoto. All three employ data bases so losing an Address/contact, an Email or a photo in an Album/Event is not like deleting/losing a file. This is why TM can magically restore items for Address Book, Mail and iPhoto.
Deleting files is handled by TM as has been explained already.
Changing a byte in a data base will cause that data base to get backed up on the next TM snapshot. Deleting a byte in a data base will also have the same effect.
It will be wise to exclude the Downloads folder from backups (especially for large downloads that could takes several hours) as TM snapshots will pickup these files (or parts that have been downloaded) multiple times. Plus, typically the downloaded files get moved from the Downloads folder to other places and will subsequently get picked up again by the next TM snapshot.
If Parallels churns data in its virtual volume it will get picked every time by the TM snapshots. It will be the users choice to exclude this from TM snapshots as they wish.
TM is not your regular/traditional backup. It's a compromise between the traditional base+incremental backups and the easy data restoration, system restorations and simplified data restoration for some Applications such as Address Book, iPhoto and Mail along with keeping the amount of data backed up to be useful and of reasonable size. It could be that Apple adds others to be tightly coupled to TM. Third party Apps can also do the same thing with their Apps as Apple has done with their three Apps.
Apple wants to have TM be easy to use by Joe user who quite likely today perform no backups at all. Joe user doesn't want to understand the intricacies of backups. Just plug a 500gig HD in and turn TM on and then forget about it until the time arises to retrieve some lost data, be it a file, photo, contact, Email and even the whole complete system.
It will be of interest to see how this TM feature grows over time.
At this time TM is tightly coupled to Address Book, Mail and iPhoto. All three employ data bases so losing an Address/contact, an Email or a photo in an Album/Event is not like deleting/losing a file. This is why TM can magically restore items for Address Book, Mail and iPhoto.
Deleting files is handled by TM as has been explained already.
Changing a byte in a data base will cause that data base to get backed up on the next TM snapshot. Deleting a byte in a data base will also have the same effect.
It will be wise to exclude the Downloads folder from backups (especially for large downloads that could takes several hours) as TM snapshots will pickup these files (or parts that have been downloaded) multiple times. Plus, typically the downloaded files get moved from the Downloads folder to other places and will subsequently get picked up again by the next TM snapshot.
If Parallels churns data in its virtual volume it will get picked every time by the TM snapshots. It will be the users choice to exclude this from TM snapshots as they wish.
TM is not your regular/traditional backup. It's a compromise between the traditional base+incremental backups and the easy data restoration, system restorations and simplified data restoration for some Applications such as Address Book, iPhoto and Mail along with keeping the amount of data backed up to be useful and of reasonable size. It could be that Apple adds others to be tightly coupled to TM. Third party Apps can also do the same thing with their Apps as Apple has done with their three Apps.
Apple wants to have TM be easy to use by Joe user who quite likely today perform no backups at all. Joe user doesn't want to understand the intricacies of backups. Just plug a 500gig HD in and turn TM on and then forget about it until the time arises to retrieve some lost data, be it a file, photo, contact, Email and even the whole complete system.
It will be of interest to see how this TM feature grows over time.
well let's wait for a bunch a Joe's to start complaining because they cannot go back in time and restore a file that Apple insinuated he could recover ("Go back in time to restore any file on your system").
Don't get me wrong.. TM is a great idea... but those limitations made me think. That's all.
Barry,
Will TM do the same for your "BootCamp" Volume? No one seems to know. If so, I'm sold!
Bob
Why would Time Machine work on the BootCamp Volume? That Volume could be FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, Windows XP, etc., with myriad of filesystems.
This would be something I'd never expect have backed up,
Then 2 questions:
1. Asked before: will there be any way to purge a file from the TM system. Waiting for over a month would probably do the trick, but I can image that someone would like to swipe away confidential files somewhat quicker (like the minutes of an illegal syndicate made on your macbook
2. It is clear that TM will work with an airport extreme and a connected drive. But will it work with an airport express as well?
At this time TM is tightly coupled to Address Book, Mail and iPhoto. All three employ data bases so losing an Address/contact, an Email or a photo in an Album/Event is not like deleting/losing a file. This is why TM can magically restore items for Address Book, Mail and iPhoto.
Deleting files is handled by TM as has been explained already.
Changing a byte in a data base will cause that data base to get backed up on the next TM snapshot. Deleting a byte in a data base will also have the same effect.
It will be wise to exclude the Downloads folder from backups (especially for large downloads that could takes several hours) as TM snapshots will pickup these files (or parts that have been downloaded) multiple times. Plus, typically the downloaded files get moved from the Downloads folder to other places and will subsequently get picked up again by the next TM snapshot.
If Parallels churns data in its virtual volume it will get picked every time by the TM snapshots. It will be the users choice to exclude this from TM snapshots as they wish.
TM is not your regular/traditional backup. It's a compromise between the traditional base+incremental backups and the easy data restoration, system restorations and simplified data restoration for some Applications such as Address Book, iPhoto and Mail along with keeping the amount of data backed up to be useful and of reasonable size. It could be that Apple adds others to be tightly coupled to TM. Third party Apps can also do the same thing with their Apps as Apple has done with their three Apps.
Apple wants to have TM be easy to use by Joe user who quite likely today perform no backups at all. Joe user doesn't want to understand the intricacies of backups. Just plug a 500gig HD in and turn TM on and then forget about it until the time arises to retrieve some lost data, be it a file, photo, contact, Email and even the whole complete system.
It will be of interest to see how this TM feature grows over time.
Stop it!
Time Machine backs up a file. It remains on your designated external drive until you physically remove it.
Delete the file from you computer deliberately, by accident or by foul play and you simply restore the file from the backup when you want to.
Revise the file and on the next backup, Time Machine will attach the change. If the file has been removed from you computer in the meantime, Time Machine does nothing to the backup. There is nothing to see, check or update.
As such, you can literally and purposely, accidently delete and/or fry your drive and use Time Machine to restore you machine to any time in history that has been backed up to your designated external drive.
Think about it. It is called Time Machine. And for a reason.
Stop it!
Time Machine backs up a file. It remains on your designated external drive until you physically remove it.
Delete the file from you computer deliberately, by accident or by foul play and you simply restore the file from the backup when you want to.
Revise the file and on the next backup, Time Machine will attach the change. If the file has been removed from you computer in the meantime, Time Machine does nothing to the backup. There is nothing to see, check or update.
As such, you can literally and purposely, accidently delete and/or fry your drive and use Time Machine to restore you machine to any time in history that has been backed up to your designated external drive.
Think about it. It is called Time Machine. And for a reason.
The question is what does it mean to have hourly/daily backups eliminated.
How would that work? Let's assume I spend 8 hours at work working on one file. Through the course of the day my file, work.pages, ends up being TimeMachined into the equivalent of work1.pages, work2.pages...work8.pages (yet they all are named work.pages).
If I go back in time through TimeMachine on an hourly basis, I see each version of work.pages as just work.pages in the finder even though they represent work1.pages, work2.pages, etc.
That makes sense and is a great solution.
Now, however, Apple tells me that it is going to delete the hourly versions once the next day starts. I suppose it could keep 8 versions of this file, but when I TimeMachine back, which one will it present to me?? The latest or all 8 (with copy numbers to display them all in a Finder Window)??
Absent any indication that it is all 8 (and I have seen no evidence of such version numbering), it seems logical to assume that the 1 file it will show for the previous day will be the last one.
Now, what about a File that has been eliminated from the 8th hourly backup, but was around on the 7th hourly backup? When the daily purge occurs would TimeMachine keep the one from the 7th backup, i.e. that TimeMachine rolls up all backups when the purge occurs to keep the latest version of ALL files that it ever backed up during the relevant time frame.
The question I have is when one goes back in Time to this day that has been purged of the hourlies, what do I see and what is available to restore?
1) All files that ever existed on that day with every version of any file that changed.
2) The last version of all files that ever existed on that day?
3) Just the files that existed when the last backup ran before the purge?
Similar issues/questions arise for the weekly and monthly purges.
The question is what does it mean to have hourly/daily backups eliminated.
1) All files that ever existed on that day with every version of any file that changed.
2) The last version of all files that ever existed on that day?
3) Just the files that existed when the last backup ran before the purge?
Similar issues/questions arise for the weekly and monthly purges.
Yes, I think that's the issue here.
I hope that it might be #2, but #3 is probably more likely.
Then again, as has been said, this should be only matter very infrequently.
The question is what does it mean to have hourly/daily backups eliminated.…The question I have is when one goes back in Time to this day that has been purged of the hourlies, what do I see and what is available to restore?
1) All files that ever existed on that day with every version of any file that changed.
2) The last version of all files that ever existed on that day?
3) Just the files that existed when the last backup ran before the purge?
Similar issues/questions arise for the weekly and monthly purges.
First of all, forget or disregard "How Time Machine works"
Best to read Apple's Time Machine info (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/...memachine.html) and view the linked Demo.
I really don't know of a simpler way to describe its functionality.
Just remember that using Time Machine as directed, i.e., attaching an external drive, assigning it to Time Machine and keeping it live and connected everytime you turn on your computer, you'll be able to restore virtually every snapshot of your computer as you create, revise or delete files on your computer.
If you look at the Demo carefully, you'll see Time Machine move from one day to the next at the same time of day, i.e., "6:33 PM." However, if you notice the list of files sorted by "Last Used Date," it appears to be a Spotlight "Result" listing every "Italian Design" file which have been created or altered within minutes of each other and beyond. Are the 'Documents' as listed the same? I don't know. It just seems that Time Machine could be quite granular in its backup process.
Whatever, I feel quite confident that I will be able to back up my entire computer, frag all those files I hesitate to permanently delete and keep my machine lean and mean…and a lot easier and faster than I do now. More important, at anytime, I can travel back in time and restore files that I would normally have to search through hundreds of DAT tapes, CD's or DVDs now.
Stop it!
Time Machine backs up a file. It remains on your designated external drive until you physically remove it.
Delete the file from you computer deliberately, by accident or by foul play and you simply restore the file from the backup when you want to.
Revise the file and on the next backup, Time Machine will attach the change. If the file has been removed from you computer in the meantime, Time Machine does nothing to the backup. There is nothing to see, check or update.
As such, you can literally and purposely, accidently delete and/or fry your drive and use Time Machine to restore you machine to any time in history that has been backed up to your designated external drive.
Think about it. It is called Time Machine. And for a reason.
I'm not a developer, but from speaking to those who are, and who have extensively wrung out 10.5 over the time Apple has had it out there, what you are saying is correct.
What I'm seeing here is a lot of speculation about how things are done at various levels in the OS, and I'm wondering if people here really know what they're talking about
The OS version every developer has now is the one that will be VERY close to the one released.
Instead of all of this silly arguing back and forth, simply take a look.
Are you all saying that while you are all willing to argue this to death without knowing anything, none of you actually have a TimeMachine drive set up and working?
If not, then nothing said here has been of any value whatsoever.
Someone, set up a drive. All you have to do is to look at what is being saved. This could have been done a month ago. Once you see what is being done, then you will know for certain, and all of this disagreement can end.
Many of the arguments we have here can't easily be proven one way or the other, so they go on for pages. But this one shouldn't even be happening. Either it does what Apple says, or it doesn't. It can be easily found out.
If someone is going to say that it doesn't work yet, so they can't find out, then it's so late in the process it won't be available in the release either.
So, will someone please give correct information from an actual working system?
Thank you.
What I'm seeing here is a lot of speculation about how things are done at various levels in the OS, and I'm wondering if people here really know what they're talking about
Actually, what you're seeing is people here looking at all the information we have on "how it works", in contrast to the marketing description, and then asking about a hole that seems to be there in a reasonably unique situation.
For almost any regular users usage, it will work "as advertised".
[edit: The actual article says the deletion "maintains a complete, extensive set of backups that balance out the demands for backup frequency versus disk space."]
On a related note and as I said before, deleting files because they're in the backup is a bad idea - create an archive instead. It's similar to users who store their read emails in the trash because it's convenient.
Someone, set up a drive. All you have to do is to look at what is being saved. This could have been done a month ago. Once you see what is being done, then you will know for certain, and all of this disagreement can end.
Good idea!
Could someone with Leopard:
1) create File1 at noon, and delete it 1.5hrs later. Check it's in Time Machine.
2) Create File2 at 2pm, and delete it 1.5 hrs later. Check its in Time machine.
3) Wait till the hourly backups are deleted (2 days later, to be safe?)
4) see if both File1 and File2 are in the daily backup....
I don't see what the big deal is here folks.
The OS version every developer has now is the one that will be VERY close to the one released.
Instead of all of this silly arguing back and forth, simply take a look.
Are you all saying that while you are all willing to argue this to death without knowing anything, none of you actually have a TimeMachine drive set up and working?
If not, then nothing said here has been of any value whatsoever.
Someone, set up a drive. All you have to do is to look at what is being saved. This could have been done a month ago. Once you see what is being done, then you will know for certain, and all of this disagreement can end.
Many of the arguments we have here can't easily be proven one way or the other, so they go on for pages. But this one shouldn't even be happening. Either it does what Apple says, or it doesn't. It can be easily found out.
If someone is going to say that it doesn't work yet, so they can't find out, then it's so late in the process it won't be available in the release either.
So, will someone please give correct information from an actual working system?
Thank you.
I'd love to post some definitive statements for you but cannot until Leo becomes GA. Sorry. I can say I've been testing TM for Apple for the past 12 months. Just be aware that the fine print on Apple's TM web pages state they reserve the right to change things. All your enquiries have merit IMO, as do others. Shouldn't be long now before much of what is being asked about here can be responded with definitive and correct answers.
Also, I hope Apple does finally introduce ZFS so a changed file doesn't mean a whole new copy of the file taking up hard disc space. Actually, just thinking about it, I wonder if the whole new version of that file does need to be copied to the backup disc. Surely just the differences between the modified file and the older backup file need to be backed up. Would this functionality really need ZFS to work? RSync kind of works in this manner, doesn't it?
Actually, what you're seeing is people here looking at all the information we have on "how it works", in contrast to the marketing description, and then asking about a hole that seems to be there in a reasonably unique situation.
For almost any regular users usage, it will work "as advertised".
[edit: The actual article says the deletion "maintains a complete, extensive set of backups that balance out the demands for backup frequency versus disk space."]
On a related note and as I said before, deleting files because they're in the backup is a bad idea - create an archive instead. It's similar to users who store their read emails in the trash because it's convenient.
Good idea!
Could someone with Leopard:
1) create File1 at noon, and delete it 1.5hrs later. Check it's in Time Machine.
2) Create File2 at 2pm, and delete it 1.5 hrs later. Check its in Time machine.
3) Wait till the hourly backups are deleted (2 days later, to be safe?)
4) see if both File1 and File2 are in the daily backup....
I concur, this is a great idea. In fact, by posing my questions above I was hoping that someone, unlike me, who has access to a nearly GM version would be able to offer insight.
It is not that I am complaining or bitching, I am just trying to discover what, exactly, are the capabilities and limitations of TM. The article offer much new information but seemed to leave these questions open.
First of all, forget or disregard "How Time Machine works"
Best to read Apple's Time Machine info (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/...memachine.html) and view the linked Demo.
I really don't know of a simpler way to describe its functionality.
Just remember that using Time Machine as directed, i.e., attaching an external drive, assigning it to Time Machine and keeping it live and connected everytime you turn on your computer, you'll be able to restore virtually every snapshot of your computer as you create, revise or delete files on your computer.
If you look at the Demo carefully, you'll see Time Machine move from one day to the next at the same time of day, i.e., "6:33 PM." However, if you notice the list of files sorted by "Last Used Date," it appears to be a Spotlight "Result" listing every "Italian Design" file which have been created or altered within minutes of each other and beyond. Are the 'Documents' as listed the same? I don't know. It just seems that Time Machine could be quite granular in its backup process.
Whatever, I feel quite confident that I will be able to back up my entire computer, frag all those files I hesitate to permanently delete and keep my machine lean and mean?and a lot easier and faster than I do now. More important, at anytime, I can travel back in time and restore files that I would normally have to search through hundreds of DAT tapes, CD's or DVDs now.
I took a look at this Demo and it appears to me that you get in that section where you see the "Italian Design" file is the *one* keynote file and a bunch of documents, each of those with different time stamps. Note that they are not listed as keynote files, just documents.
It seem pretty evident that you get, after the Daily rollup of hourly versions, a single version of the file on the 6:33 snapshot which is, most assuredly, the last one. And, as I mentioned above, how could Apple provide an interface to display all hourly versions of a file when the daily snapshot has only one instance, i.e. the 6:33 rollup??? They would need version numbers and/or date stamps to help the user identify which one to restore.
With no evidence of versioning, it looks like the result is option 2 or 3 in my post earlier.
That leaves the real question of do the rollups (either daily or monthly) keep only the latest version of only those files that STILL exist in the last snapshot before the rollup (option 2) or do they keep the latest version of all files that ever existed in any snapshot in the rollup (option 3).
This is an important difference because, both via children and my own absent mindedness, I have deleted files that I wish I could have gotten back and this is a feature specifically touted.
slightly depressed that it sounds like i cannot have TM backup to my NAS which is connected to all the macs in my studio via AFP. now that would be cool!
great article.
slightly depressed that it sounds like i cannot have TM backup to my NAS which is connected to all the macs in my studio via AFP. now that would be cool!
Supposedly, a network drive can be used. I'm not familiar with the specifics.