Life AFTER Jaguar.... What won't it do?

Posted:
in macOS edited January 2014
I see lots of lists of things that Jaguar is going to 'fixify' to get back features of previous OSes. But my question is what WON'T Jaguar do which I want it to? I know there are lots of hacks out there but lets face it, they won't last forever and Apple will only tolerate so much of them. So lets try and build a list of things which haven't been done yet which we still demand. I can start us off....



Integrated USABLE voice recognition (viavoice-esque?)

Advanced power management. (ala, scheduled startups!!!)



So how about the rest of the bugs? No windowshade, dock transparancy, themes, spring loaded folders, ability to bind F-Keys... how many of these is Jaguar NOT going to fix and where do we go to survive, Life After Jaguar.



(I know, how dare me start a thread, but I like the phrase "Life After Jaguar" so much that I had to get it out here for folks to see.)
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 37
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    [quote]Originally posted by Jonathan Brisby:

    <strong>I see lots of lists of things that Jaguar is going to 'fixify' to get back features of previous OSes. But my question is what WON'T Jaguar do which I want it to? I know there are lots of hacks out there but lets face it, they won't last forever and Apple will only tolerate so much of them. So lets try and build a list of things which haven't been done yet which we still demand. I can start us off....



    Integrated USABLE voice recognition (viavoice-esque?)

    Advanced power management. (ala, scheduled startups!!!)

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Er, not to be pedantic, but I don't recall those being in 'previous OSs', if by that you mean OS 9.



    Voice recog: not sure about the rest of you, but I still think this is a deadend, UI wise. It's a cute gimmick, but except for dictation of rough ideas, it's not really a viable UI. (Hint: Bill Gates really, really likes it. This should tell you something.)



    Power support: expecting this any day now, what with XServe hitting the market. It may, you realize, require new hardware to be possible.



    [quote]<strong>So how about the rest of the bugs? No windowshade, dock transparancy, themes, spring loaded folders, ability to bind F-Keys... how many of these is Jaguar NOT going to fix and where do we go to survive, Life After Jaguar.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Sorry, but which ones of those missing features were 'bugs', again exactly?



    I really hate to bring this up One More Freakin' Time, but a bug is a break with an intended specification. Period. If it was never intended to be in there, IT'S NOT A BUG. It's a missing feature. You may want that feature, you may need that feature, you may have wet dreams about that feature, but it's not a bug, okay?



    Windowshade: never really liked it that much. Of course, I like the minimize to Dock *less*. If the minimize in place makes it, and it looks like it will, I'll be happy. You may want a different feature.



    Dock Transparency: Er, don't know, don't care. Never seen the point of this, other than as a k3wl hax0r.



    Themes: Don't expect this. Sorry. Apple doesn't seem to want them, and until the UI settles down and becomes a bit more stable, *especially* from an API point of view, you won't see this. Once Carbon and Cocoa hit full feature parity, and the APIs are established, then you might see this.



    Spring Loaded Folders: Er, check any of the numerous threads here or elsewhere about Jaguar. SLFs are there.



    F-Keys: Works in many apps now. Try a google search for 'key bindings Cocoa'. Again, this isn't going to happen until the APIs are at feature parity. Patience.



    [quote]<strong>(I know, how dare me start a thread, but I like the phrase "Life After Jaguar" so much that I had to get it out here for folks to see.)</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Well, that's fine. But can we keep the topic at least factually based?



    Jaguar will bring you SLFs.



    Power management should appear PDQ, if Apple has any brains about the server market, and with XServe, they seem to be quickly gaining some.



    Themes and F-Key bindings: when the APIs settle down.



    Windowshade, Dock transparency: why? (Use the third party tools. That's what they're there for.)



    Voice recog as a main UI driver is a red herring. Personally, I hope Apple stays far from this until the underlying query intelligence is *MUCH* more advanced.



    Now, instead I think we should be asking: where are the meta-data labels? The meta-data hierarchical data types? Etc, etc, etc? (Answer: they're coming. BeFS main architect hired a few months ago, hierarchical data types starting to be used in the latest dev tools as a testbed, etc.) These sorts of things are *MUCH* more important than whether or not the Dock is translucent. :/



    [Edit: spelling tipos]



    [ 07-14-2002: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
  • Reply 2 of 37
    naghanagha Posts: 71member
    A few years back, after the Knowledge Navigator was forgotten from the collective memory, there were discussions of making the computing experience less user driven and have the computer learn what you do with the computer and have it seek out things that might interest you.



    The current Forbes has an interview with Bill Gates where he talks about the "next" version of Windows and his hopes for it. But he talks a lot about automating mundane things, putting the information in your computer more available to you regardless of where you are. having the computer track phone calls, forward them to your cell phone, take messages and send you emails...



    That's the kind of stuff I want... now that the foundation is strong, I want Apple to start innovating again.



    na
  • Reply 3 of 37
    [quote]hierarchical data types starting to be used in the latest dev tools as a testbed, etc.<hr></blockquote>



    Ooh, could you tell me more about this?
  • Reply 4 of 37
    I want a port of the Font/DA Mover, dammit! Even System 6 had that. Get a clue, Apple!
  • Reply 5 of 37
    drewpropsdrewprops Posts: 2,321member
    I thought that Mr. Brisby's question wasn't worthy of as much disdain as Kickaha poured into his reply.



    I think that OS X is Tony The Tiger Grrrrrreat, but I'm also frustrated by a lot of things with the OS. As a graphics pro I cannot see myself being anywhere as fast as I am in OS 9 due to the immature user interface. So, while I agree that these things aren't bugs, I can't help but FEEL like Jaguar will start to deliver the wonders that OS X promised us two years ago. Oh yeah, WINDOWSHADE? A -KILLER- technology Kickaha, makes me a speed demon when working between my fleet of apps...trying to do the same thing in OS X is a pain in the arse...and I've been learning OS X since November of last year, so I'm no Johnny come lately to the interface.



    So, what do I think we should start looking for in future builds of the Mac OS? Voice Recognition? Ehhhh, never tried it. If it were built into the OS I might try it....do NOT tell me about Speech Recognition from OS 8.x, I'll just scream "Computer? COMPUTER?!?!?!?"



    - video-conferencing & whiteboard software

    - early adoption and adherence to every emerging software standard possible

    - sound sets (they say they're coming with Jaguar though)

    - java 1.4 (or the most recent possible)

    - there's a haxie for windowshades isn't there? is it coming to Jag? if not, I want it back

    - telephony management

    - a built-in fax app that uses addressbook



    more...
  • Reply 6 of 37
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    CGG4: *laugh* Cute.



    Hierarchical data types:



    <a href="http://www.cs.unc.edu/~smithja/PBPrefs.tiff"; target="_blank">Project Builder Prefs</a>



    You can set helper apps based on the more general type (text), or more specific (text.script) or really specific (text.script.perl). Very nice.



    This is new in the latest round of freely available dev tools, and it's my opinion that this is being tested here, for developer feedback as informed end users. Since this bears more than a slight similarity to BeFS's MIME based hierarchical data types, I have this sneaking suspicion that it will eventually work its way into the standard OS.



    *THIS* would be one of the biggest things that they could do for the OS, instead of little UI details that definitely seem more suited to third party additions. (Which, due to the more robust and more open nature of OS X, really aren't as dangerous to the system as they were under OS 9. Go nuts!)



    Edit: He asked when we might see these items. I answered. I also added in an opinion piece on lack of accurate nomenclature (which drives me *NUTS*, as a Comp Sci PhD student). Sorry if it offended, but it's pretty simple: it's a bug only if it doesn't match what was *intended*. You may *expect* something different, but unless the developer concurs, it's a missing feature, not a bug. Obviously, Apple doesn't concur on these... they aren't listed as being in the OS, they aren't marketed as being in the OS, they aren't *intended* to be in the current OS. Therefore, they aren't bugs.



    If we can't keep simple nomenclature such as that straight, rational discourse can't really occur, and the developers will *NOT* listen to you. Trust me on that one. To the developer, there's a huge difference between a customer saying "You're missing feature A" and "I found bug A". *Mondo* huge difference on how they'll interpret it, accept it, and most importantly, file it for fixing. If you say 'bug', and it isn't, they'll ignore you, or at best, file you under 'loony' and you get bumped to the bottom of the pile.



    It's nearly as bad as that ridiculous "MacOS X 10.0 was a beta!" ranting that went on way back when. It's simple. There are simple, well defined definitions for these things. If you want to be taken seriously, use them. Else, risk being ignored by the developers, and endlessly frustrated.



    Edit 2 (caution: content within)



    I loved WindowShade for *one* thing: double-click twice in succession to see what was behind a window. For *that* it was great. What *wasn't* great was shading a window, then bringing another window over the top of it, probably from behind. Voila, you have to move windows out of the way (or at best use the Windows menu in 9.2.1). It essentially makes reduced window into a desktop item... and I really hate desktop items.



    Conversely, Dock minimized windows have exactly the opposite set of pros/cons: When you minimize one, it's off the screen, more or less. You can't lose it under something. OTOH, a quick peek is damned near impossible. I use minimizing more for task-based elimination of window clutter than I do for quick checks, so for me, the Dock method works a bit better. But I do miss the quick peek behaviour.



    [ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
  • Reply 7 of 37
    drewpropsdrewprops Posts: 2,321member
    - built-in bluetooth

    - an SMS broadcast feature built-into the OS that sends a message out to an Apple-branded broadcaster accessed via your iTools, sorry, .Mac account

    - sensitivity to ambient conditions via hardware sensors, and failing that, presets (ie, Locations panel), you know, in case it starts raining.....ummmm

    - a way to manage active apps for pros, something better than the Dock...something that doesn't drive us to a third party...which is what I'll do when I DO decide to move to OS X for full-time work (next year).



    D
  • Reply 8 of 37
    Thanks for the info, Kickaha. That could be a promising UI development.
  • Reply 9 of 37
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    [quote]Originally posted by drewprops:

    <strong>- built-in bluetooth</strong><hr></blockquote>



    You mean hardware? It's quickly getting into the OS side...



    [quote]<strong>

    - video-conferencing & whiteboard software</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Yes, please. H.323 as a bare (very) minimum.



    [quote]<strong>

    - early adoption and adherence to every emerging software standard possible</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Where ever reasonable, definitely.



    [quote]<strong>

    - sound sets (they say they're coming with Jaguar though)</strong><hr></blockquote>



    That'll be a nice touch... with user accounts, we can avoid having an entire household subjected to annoying Star Trek sounds.



    [quote]<strong>

    - java 1.4 (or the most recent possible)</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Hear hear!



    [quote]<strong>

    - there's a haxie for windowshades isn't there? is it coming to Jag? if not, I want it back</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I don't believe it is - the minimized in place windows offer a better replacement for my needs. (But yes, I understand there are those that want it.)



    [quote]<strong>

    - telephony management</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Hmmm. Would be nice, as long as it doesn't interfere with fax/modem use.



    [quote]<strong>

    - a built-in fax app that uses addressbook</strong><hr></blockquote>



    *sigh* Another NeXT item lost to the winds, and yet to be regained.



    [quote]<strong>

    - an SMS broadcast feature built-into the OS that sends a message out to an Apple-branded broadcaster accessed via your iTools, sorry, .Mac account</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Er, not quite getting what you mean here. An Apple branded physical device? Or just sent out through .Mac?



    [quote]<strong>

    - sensitivity to ambient conditions via hardware sensors, and failing that, presets (ie, Locations panel), you know, in case it starts raining.....ummmm</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Okay, you've got my attention. Why?!?



    [quote]<strong>

    - a way to manage active apps for pros, something better than the Dock...something that doesn't drive us to a third party...which is what I'll do when I DO decide to move to OS X for full-time work (next year). </strong><hr></blockquote>



    I'd love to see the Dock boosted up on several fronts: the folders being fully SLF enabled items, and groupings of apps that allow drop of documents (see previous item - rather takes care of both at one shot) are my two big ones.



    There's one large one that I'd like to see added by Apple just because the third party versions can't take advantage of many of the private APIs that would make it rather slick: virtual workspaces.
  • Reply 10 of 37
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    The Dock is a joke. And most of the cool things about it are hidden. Transluceny should be an option (try it!) Plus why isn't Scale available? Or is it? In any event TinkerTool and Unsanity shouldn't be making up for Apple's deficiencies.



    That being said, I used to be a hard-core Windowshades advocate. This new "minimize in place" mode looks like a much better and in true Apple fashion, more stylish approach to the same thing: quickly getting something out of the way to check the status of something behind the current window. Like download progress. The Dock is too slow. Also, you can still see what the current app is doing! Now THIS is what I call innovation. I wouldn't mind seeing more of this! As well as more important things like meta-data (Labels) and a journaling file system.



    Now wait just a second, I don't feel like waiting four years for OS X to boot, but you can't schedule start-ups?! That doesn't sound very powerful to me... especially for a server Since we have been able to do this for years I don't see why new hardware would be required either.
  • Reply 11 of 37
    xaqtlyxaqtly Posts: 450member
    Heh heh... you guys will defecate yourselves when you see the power management options in OS X Server Jaguar. *wink*



    As far as the other stuff... yes, interface sounds are in Jaguar, so are spring loaded folders. I haven't checked to see if the address book is linked to a fax program or not, but it's gotten a major overhaul from the previous address book... it integrates with everything in OS X now. Not just Mail, but iChat also, it's in your Internet preferences (there's a link to your profile in Address Book).



    Not sure what was meant by "usable" voice recognition, but Speakable Items works pretty well in Jaguar. As far as Windowshade - not included in Jaguar as of yet, but I've learned to use "Command-H" instead. Oh, and Bluetooth - there is an app in the Utilities folder in Jaguar just for Bluetooth management. Methinks that indicates Apple's support for it. Scale is available for minimizing in Jaguar, not just Genie.



    As far as scheduling startups... I haven't looked for that in Energy Saver yet. Maybe I will tomorrow. But that's on the client side... see the first paragraph of this post regarding the server.
  • Reply 12 of 37
    [quote]Originally posted by drewprops:

    <strong>I thought that Mr. Brisby's question wasn't worthy of as much disdain as Kickaha poured into his reply.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    THANKS YOU! Jesus, could he give me BOTH barrels? This was just a casual comment (not to be disected as some technical analysis). I just want a list of features which I will still need hacks for. Is that too much to ask?



    <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
  • Reply 13 of 37
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    From the comments about the leaked Jag builds, it seems that minimize in place is missing (disabled) in more recent versions. Can anyone confirm this?



    It sounded like a really cool feature. I used windowshades the most in apps. For example, I use LightWave alot. When Im on a single monitor system, it is a real pain to deal w/all the small windows in OSX. The latest version of LW allows you to send the small windows/pallets to the dock. This is OK, but in 9 I would use WS and keep the window in my workspace. Min in place seems like a great alternative because you would still get visual feedback about what is in a window.
  • Reply 14 of 37
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    I'll add:



    I'd like to see compliance with PDF 1.4 spec.





    [Edited for clarity. Thanks, Scott. ]



    [ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
  • Reply 15 of 37
    hotboxdhotboxd Posts: 125member
    I wish they'd allow for the addition/subtraction of dividers in the Dock like they do in all the toolbars. Isn't exactly revolutionary but it would allow for an extra level of organization in the Dock.



    I hope Jaguar fixes the annoying Network bug which makes me have to reset my Network prefs every time I want to go online.



    I kinda wish the Menubar was multithreaded independantly of the active app. like the Dock is. It gets annoying to have to switch to another program just to access the Force Quit dialog when a program locks up (I know I can do it from the Dock).



    More view options in Column View would be nice.



    Cleaning up the Start-Up process would also be nice. The Happy Mac logo should be kept but the representation of it should be updated with some more modern looking graphic effects, it looks decidedly OS9 right now. Also, they should try to get rid of the flashes and screen shifts during the early phases of the startup process, it's not a big deal but would look more polished. Also, they need it get rid of that tiny gap in the StartUp process-bar just right of center, I can't believe they haven't spotted that one.



    These are all just little niggles, but it would be fairly easy to address. As for the more hardcore file-system etc. improvements I'll leave that to the people that know more than I do.
  • Reply 16 of 37
    scott f.scott f. Posts: 276member
    [quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:

    <strong>I'll add:



    compliance with PDF 1.4 spec</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I'm sorry. I don't understand... are you saying that as a WISH for future versions or are you saying it is currently implemented in Jag...?
  • Reply 17 of 37
    xaqtlyxaqtly Posts: 450member
    [quote] it seems that minimize in place is missing (disabled) in more recent versions. Can anyone confirm this? <hr></blockquote>



    I think it must be disabled... when you hit the yellow button the window goes into the Dock, like it did in 10.1. The main difference is that the Dock shows your document with a little icon of the application that owns it, which is pretty cool.



    [quote] I hope Jaguar fixes the annoying Network bug which makes me have to reset my Network prefs every time I want to go online. <hr></blockquote>



    Oh, I don't know about that one... I haven't heard of that happening to anybody before, in any version of OS X. It didn't do that to me in 10.1, and it's not doing it in Jaguar, so... I dunno.



    [quote] More view options in Column View would be nice. <hr></blockquote>



    I believe that there are more options for column view in Jaguar than in 10.1.



    [quote] The Happy Mac logo should be kept but the representation of it should be updated with some more modern looking graphic effects, it looks decidedly OS9 right now. <hr></blockquote>



    It's like Apple is reading your mind. You should be happy with the Jaguar startup sequence. And I'm not experiencing any screen flashes or shifts while starting up, for what that's worth.
  • Reply 18 of 37
    [quote]Originally posted by hotboxd:

    <strong>More view options in Column View would be nice.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Better than nothing. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
  • Reply 19 of 37
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Keda say it ain't so! Will Minimize in Place be killed off like Single Window Mode? It's even better than Window Shades, you're right, since you can see the status of the "minimized" app. Minimized sounds too Windows, I'm sure Apple will come up with something more catchy.
  • Reply 20 of 37
    xaqtlyxaqtly Posts: 450member
    Starfleet, it's considerably more filled out than that now (build 6C9x) I would post a pic but I can't get any of my FTP programs to work through our firewall in this build of Jaguar. Heh. Some of the options now are This Window or All Windows, Icon Size, Text Size, Show Columns: Date modified, Date Created, Size, Kind, Version, Comments. Also available are Use Relative Dates and Calculate All Sizes.
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