Time to invade Africa

Posted:
in PoliticalOutsider edited January 2014
These Somali pirates are out of hand. Evidently there are whole towns that serve as pirate bases. The US patrols the world's oceans, why are we not invading these towns (or at least, sending in a cruise missile or two)?



And as part of a larger context - we need to scale our electrical power generation 500% in the next 40 years (from 300GW to 1500GW). Alternative energies won't scale fast enough, IMHO, fossil fuels are out, and normal nuclear will use up all of our uranium in very short order. The end result, as I see it, is breeder reactors, which means that everyone in the world will have access to plutonium based nuclear weapons.



Large countries with free trade ties are safe, because they have too much to lose. China and the US will never go to war, so they are both trustworthy enough so that nuclear weapons are not a problem. Small countries are a problem, though.



I don't think we can suffer small countries to live, they are too unstable to trust with the nuclear weapons that they will eventually get (just think of Somalia with nukes). We need to invade Africa to merge it into a superpower.



If we could get them to merge up without a war, that would be even better, but it doesn't seem to be happening. Forming a superpower is obviously in the best interest of Africans, so if it was going to happen it would have already happened...



Thoughts?
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Comments

  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Since this happened, I have been wondering why a special forces team from us or Israel or France or Britain hasn't just gone in and killed them.



    As an aside, I seem to remember the US invading Somalia once before....
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Re: your other point.



    Africa is fucked up because a) Europe has been carving it up and tinkering and meddling for 150 years and b) the cold war ended.



    I think "merging Africa" into a superpower would work about as well as telling California, Texas, and Virginia that they're all now one big state and they just need to suck it if they don't like it.



    Ooh! Or maybe as well as telling three separate states at the collapse of the Ottoman empire "Hey guys! You're all Iraqis now!"
  • sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    As April Glaspie, US Ambassador to Iraq said to Saddam Hussein in 1990 (re. Kuwait slant-drilling into Iraq and stealing Iraqi oil), "do what you must, the United States is not interested in your local problems".



    The Somali piracy is their local problem. Perhaps the local Islamist militias in Somalia, enraged that tankers from Islamic countries are being hijacked, might go head to head with the pirates.
  • e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,070member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by midwinter View Post


    I think "merging Africa" into a superpower would work about as well as telling California, Texas, and Virginia that they're all now one big state and they just need to suck it if they don't like it....



    Ooh! Or maybe as well as telling three separate states at the collapse of the Ottoman empire "Hey guys! You're all Iraqis now!"



    That is why I think we need to invade - those countries are not likely to combine unless we shred the fabric of their society, and turn them into a mad max style hellscape. All of Africa needs to be reduced to rubble, and a new society with a new identity needs to form from the ashes.



    We don't really have a choice, as I see it, unless they do it on their own. The European Union is a group of very different groups, as is the US - maybe they can form "The African Union". And it isn't just Africa, BTW - South America also needs to form a superpower (hopefully Chavez will merge everybody into a new version of the USSR).
  • SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 25,341member
    Let the oil companies form their own elite military hit squads. It's their oil, they should defend it.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post


    that is why i think we need to invade - those countries are not likely to combine unless we shred the fabric of their society, and turn them into a mad max style hellscape. All of africa needs to be reduced to rubble, and a new society with a new identity needs to form from the ashes.



    We don't really have a choice, as i see it, unless they do it on their own. The european union is a group of very different groups, as is the us - maybe they can form "the african union". And it isn't just africa, btw - south america also needs to form a superpower (hopefully chavez will merge everybody into a new version of the ussr).



    Attention, people contributing to this forum from the year 2003:



    We are from your future. I know that this will be difficult to accept, but in only 5 years, the GOP will be out of power in a democratic takeover, bush will have the lowest approval ratings in US history, the occupation of Iraq will be an unmitigated disaster, the economy will be on the verge of collapse, and the country will have just elected a black man whose name is "Hussein."



    Do not be frightened. But you probably should also know that the neo-conservatives have been completely repudiated.
  • midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


    Let the oil companies form their own elite military hit squads. It's their oil, they should defend it.



    They did, but the mercenaries are otherwise engaged.
  • e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,070member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by midwinter View Post


    Attention, people contributing to this forum from the year 2003:



    We are from your future. I know that this will be difficult to accept, but in only 5 years, the GOP will be out of power in a democratic takeover, bush will have the lowest approval ratings in US history, the occupation of Iraq will be an unmitigated disaster, the economy will be on the verge of collapse, and the country will have just elected a black man whose name is "Hussein."



    Do not be frightened. But you probably should also know that the neo-conservatives have been completely repudiated.



    So you are OK with small countries with Nukes? Not a very good argument on your part IMHO. So what if it is a neo-conservative position, everything I said is still true. Hopefully Obama will do a better job of invading these crappy places than Bush did.



    Obama could be the ultimate neo-conservative because he is more intelligent than Bush, and if he starts to think along the lines of my OP above, then he won't bungle it like Bush did. Every small country is a "failed state" or "potential failed state", and we need to get rid of them.
  • hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    Just a small thing, but it is impossible to "invade Africa".



    It's like saying "We should invade Europe" or "We should invade Asia."



    Africa's a continent, and it's bigger than America and Canada put together, and bigger than the whole of Central and South America, so you'd need an army bigger than... all the armies in the world to "invade" it and hold it, and that would be really hard, especially as the Egyptians and the Libyans and the Sahel states like Chad would unite with states south of the Sahara, like Niger and Eritrea and probably Mali, and the Middle East states across the Straits would weigh in, and you'd be fighting a guerilla war there in a place as large as Western and Central Europe, and then there's Nigeria, which has 24% of the whole population of Africa, and the southern and central African states like Namibia, Angola, Congo, Botswana would weigh in together, so there'd be more guerilla fighting in the huge forests and deserts of the Congo and the Kgalagadi, and there's South Africa, which actually has fighter jets and everything, and, well, I wouldn't do it, although Zimbabwe would be easy.
  • e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,070member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post


    ...especially as the Egyptians and the Libyans and the Sahel states like Chad would unite with states south of the Sahara, like Niger and Eritrea and probably Mali, and the Middle East states across the Straits would weigh in, and you'd be fighting a guerilla war there in a place as large Western and Central Europe



    Exactly - I want them to unite. We don't have to win the war, just get them to unite and stay that way (to protect themselves from us). And, anyway - who cares how hard it is, getting rid of these small countries is a matter of survival.



    If we do it, the human race might survive, if we don't then we won't.



    Northern Africa isn't that big a deal - just a little more global warming and desertification and all that will be left is a few resort towns on the mediteranian. It is sub-Saharan Africa that I am talking about.
  • hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post


    Exactly - I want them to unite. We don't have to win the war, just get them to unite and stay that way (to protect themselves from us). And, anyway - who cares how hard it is, getting rid of these small countries is a matter of survival.



    If we do it, the human race might survive, if we don't then we won't.



    Northern Africa isn't that big a deal - just a little more global warming and desertification and all that will be left is a few resort towns on the mediteranian. It is sub-Saharan Africa that I am talking about.



    Let me get this straight.



    You're suggesting we "invade" the whole of sub-Saharan Africa?
  • e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,070member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post


    Let me get this straight.



    You're suggesting we "invade" the whole of sub-Saharan Africa?



    Yes. Either that or get them to form a superpower some other way. What do you suggest - do you not think this whole thing is a problem or something?



    We could make it a lot easier by picking a winner (Kenya, Congo or S.A.) ahead of time, and turn them into an empire builder.
  • @_@ artman@_@ artman Posts: 5,231member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post


    Exactly - I want them to unite. We don't have to win the war, just get them to unite and stay that way (to protect themselves from us). And, anyway - who cares how hard it is, getting rid of these small countries is a matter of survival.



    If we do it, the human race might survive, if we don't then we won't.



    Northern Africa isn't that big a deal - just a little more global warming and desertification and all that will be left is a few resort towns on the Mediterranean. It is sub-Saharan Africa that I am talking about.



    I know you must be joking, and I'm getting a kick out of it.



    It is absolutely impossible for the US to "invade" Africa. We are outsourced as it is. Unless we institute the draft and pour whatever coins and monopoly money we have left into defense (all of it, every last dime). It would be a mission that would either last decades and would collapse this country into ruin. There is no win here, just complete and utter failure.



    Again, this reminds me of John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar, this book is a fucking revelation.



    Quote:

    Fighting in an army is a psychotic condition encouraged by a rule-of-thumb psychological technique discovered independently by every son-of-a-bitch conqueror who ever brought a backward people out of a comfortable, civilized state of nonentity (Chaka Zulu, Attila, Bismark, etc.) and started them slaughtering their neighbors. I don't approve of people who encourage psychoses in their fellow human beings. You probably do. Cure yourself of that habit.



    from You: Beast by Chad C. Mulligan



    It seems that the Bush mind-set of aggressive problem solving is still alive within you e1618978, as Chad C. Mulligan says, "Cure yourself of that habit."



    You can't invade Africa, you definitely cannot unite them and sure as fuck we will not win a battle in Africa, anywhere in Africa. They would rip us to pieces in the deserts and jungles, not including the insects, animals, reptiles, plant life, marine life, weather and disease that would follow us in our wake.



    What a joke. Ha. Ha. Ha.
  • hassan i sabbahhassan i sabbah Posts: 3,987member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post


    Yes. Either that or get them to form a superpower some other way. What do you suggest - do you not think this whole thing is a problem or something?



    We could make it a lot easier by picking a winner (Kenya, Congo or S.A.) ahead of time, and turn them into an empire builder.



    OK. Right. Well, they're not that big that on colonial intervention in Africa and I can foresee certain ethical and logistical problems associated with fighting a guerilla war across an entire continent and replacing the government of a functioning, stable democracy like South Africa with a puppet regime that will 'build empires' and then leaving them in control.



    If we weren't fighting this war in Iraq, and you were really serious, it would be far cheaper and quicker to write off all African debt, all of it, build infrastructure, hospitals, schools, universities and utilities, make sure everyone has clean water, send in armies of teachers, develop the tourist infrastructure in the national parks, immunise everyone in the whole continent from polio and TB, eliminate cholera and malaria, negotiate land rights settlements, with the single precondition that governments take expert advice in their key ministries from first world experts.



    That ought to do it. A solvent Africa would make us all richer and safer.
  • @_@ artman@_@ artman Posts: 5,231member
    Absolutely Hassan i Sabbah, absolutely. That could work. But we have to take care of our debts and re-build our infrastructure, our healthcare, and our utilities first. Which could take years.



    By the way, hasn't China been doing this in Africa for about a decade anyway?



    Yes, they have. Probably too late for us, unless we partner with China.
  • e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,070member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post


    That ought to do it. A solvent Africa would make us all richer and safer.



    Richer and safer is good, but not good enough. If you have enough small countries, all you need is one bad dictator with a grudge, like Libya had. Libya had plenty of money from oil - 2007 per-capita GDP is $13K, and it was probably much higher before the revolution and embargo, also. Money didn't stop Libya from blowing stuff up.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post


    You can't invade Africa, you definitely cannot unite them and sure as fuck we will not win a battle in Africa, anywhere in Africa. They would rip us to pieces in the deserts and jungles, not including the insects, animals, reptiles, plant life, marine life, weather and disease that would follow us in our wake.



    That sounds like what people were saying before we successfully invaded Afghanistan ("The Afghans will shred us like they did to the British and Russians!", "Those Mountains are too hard!"). What is your alternative proposal? Are you OK with small countries with nuclear weapons?
  • iposteriposter Posts: 1,560member
    Thanks e1618978, that was the best laugh I had all day.
  • @_@ artman@_@ artman Posts: 5,231member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iPoster View Post


    Thanks e1618978, that was the best laugh I had all day.



    He should send this idea to Harry Turtledove. Would make an awesome alternative history series.
  • e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,070member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post


    He should send this idea to Harry Turtledove. Would make an awesome alternative history series.



    After London is a smoking hole due to a nuke sourced from Angola ("In this alternate universe, the US invaded Africa and sparked them to form a nice safe democratic superpower"), people will be writing alternative histories. Right now it is current events, not history, and we still have a chance to reconfigure the world into one that is safe enough for plutonium.



    If we don't invade, we will be constantly having to call in airstrikes on any of these countries that tries to build a reactor. If we keep them poor enough, maybe they can meet their energy needs with solar panels and windmills, so they don't need nuclear reactors. Niger and Nambia would be the biggest problems, due to their uranium mines.
  • @_@ artman@_@ artman Posts: 5,231member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post


    After London is a smoking hole due to a nuke sourced from Angola ("In this alternate universe, the US invaded Africa and sparked them to form a nice safe democratic superpower"), people will be writing alternative histories. Right now it is current events, not history, and we still have a chance to reconfigure the world into one that is safe enough for plutonium.



    So, you're just leap-frogging from Iran to Pakistan to India to Angola...Whew.



    But in all honesty, I understand your concerns about Africa and nukes.



    It's only a matter of time.
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