My Thoughts On Windows 7 And How It Relates To Snow Leapord
Okay, I know there are lots of threads on this forum about Windows 7 and Snow Leopard but the point of this board is to have discussion and here is my point of view....
Snow Leopard will not be competing with Windows 7.
Snow Leopard, as Apple have more or less said, is a maintenance release to pave the way for the latest hardware and software. Let's all get excited about Mac OS 10.7, this will be the OS that will be a contender to Windows 7.
Windows 7 is more or less competing with Windows XP and Windows Vista. If Windows 7 does not have a large adoption, Microsoft is screwed. People love Windows XP and don't want to jump ship. Besides some new touch technologies built into the OS, what can Windows 7 offer people they do not already have with XP? Or better yet, with Vista?
To say this war is between Windows 7 and Snow Leopard is completely insane as the two could not be more opposite in what they are trying to achieve...
Windows 7 - To try to give customers what they thought they would give them in Vista.
Snow Leopard - A major maintenance release to pave the road for new hardware and software.
Just my 2¢
Snow Leopard will not be competing with Windows 7.
Snow Leopard, as Apple have more or less said, is a maintenance release to pave the way for the latest hardware and software. Let's all get excited about Mac OS 10.7, this will be the OS that will be a contender to Windows 7.
Windows 7 is more or less competing with Windows XP and Windows Vista. If Windows 7 does not have a large adoption, Microsoft is screwed. People love Windows XP and don't want to jump ship. Besides some new touch technologies built into the OS, what can Windows 7 offer people they do not already have with XP? Or better yet, with Vista?
To say this war is between Windows 7 and Snow Leopard is completely insane as the two could not be more opposite in what they are trying to achieve...
Windows 7 - To try to give customers what they thought they would give them in Vista.
Snow Leopard - A major maintenance release to pave the road for new hardware and software.
Just my 2¢
Comments
I will say that Microsoft finally wised up and realized how sucktastick the taskbar was and made it more Dock'like.
Say what you want about the OS X Dock it was better than the Taskbar by a country mile.
I think that Snow Leopard is going to be anti-climatic for many. Even if they ship a more unified "Marble" UI there's just not enough new shiny things for consumers to see.
I wish Apple would just give Snow Leopard away to any computer than could run it and get critical mass for it sooner rather than later so that developers would have every incentive to deliver Leopard/Snow Leopard apps
Snow Leopard will not be competing with Windows 7.
I agree with this. I would make the same argument about Mac OS vs. Windows, any version, since Windows 95. There is no OS competition. There is platform competition, but it is minor and it is about a lot more than the OS. There is a reason Microsoft is more worried about Linux as an OS competitor than Mac OSX as an OS competitor. (Though Microsoft is deathly afraid of Apple as a multimedia/portable platform competitor.)
XP could've remained stagnant for another 10 years and Windows would still be the dominant consumer operating system. Nothing Apple does will change that, especially now that the hardware is essentially unified. Modern OSs are just too good at what they do. To the dispassionate end user it's become anodyne.
Windows 7 is more or less competing with Windows XP and Windows Vista. If Windows 7 does not have a large adoption, Microsoft is screwed. People love Windows XP and don't want to jump ship.
So they keep buying XP from Microsoft and Microsoft loses… how?
Besides some new touch technologies built into the OS, what can Windows 7 offer people they do not already have with XP? Or better yet, with Vista?
Win7 over XP:
- Universal search.
- Much tighter security.
- More streamlined wireless networking.
- Drastically improved media sharing.
- Cleaner, sharper UI.
- Built-in 256-bit AES encryption (Bitlocker).
- Multi-machine "HomeGroup"s.
Win7 over Vista:
- The best taskbar any OS has ever had. (Aero Peek, Jump Lists, Action Center, etc…)
- Less intrusive, but better overall, security.
- Reduced memory footprint.
- Much more streamlined wireless networking.
- Increased system performance, especially on the lower-end hardware.
hmurchison:
Windows 7 is more of a rebranding of Vista. It doesn't even offer the deep changes that Snow Leopard does with 64-bit kernel (because Vista already went there) and thread managing tools like Grand Central , Blocks and GPGPU with OpenCL.
Apple does a pretty great job at marketing low-level things the user never sees (Velocity Engine). Lots of hype. Maybe it will amount to something, maybe not.
Say what you want about the OS X Dock it was better than the Taskbar by a country mile.
No…
No?
Yup...
Say what you want about the OS X Dock it was better than the Taskbar by a country mile.
The main difference is still there I'm wondering why people don't get it: the Dock only shows docked windows. The taskbar shows always every task, no matter if the window is minimized or not.
Combining the QuickStart thing with the real Taskbar was a logical step forward and the look isn't really new. Just take a look at Windows 1.0
On the other hand why does Apple not improve the usability of the Dock? The issues are well known, even by Apple's own enthusiasts: http://www.asktog.com/columns/044top10docksucks.html
After 6 versions they only added the Stacks.
To the topic: I also think that Windows 7 competes more with XP and it also is interesting to think about why this would be difficult:
- the average Windows user is much older than the Mac user (just my feeling) and therefor not so open to new things and change
- most people are using XP at work and may not want a different OS at home
- the average user just want email and web and maybe some photo organization things. XP/Vista users get the newest features for free (Windows Live)
Apple will also have more challenges to get users to upgrade to the newest version because Leopard has become very mature. Think about how 10.0 was not really ready for the real home user base.
... the Dock only shows docked windows. ...
Are you serious?
Try it. You have a contextual menu of actions you can take with the app, and a list of windows open in that app to jump to.
Kind of like... a... Jump List? (The Jump List in Win7 looks a lot more fleshed out, however, and the per-window actions are much more comprehensive. I wish the Dock had them.)
Been that way since 10.0, IIRC.
App-centric: Ctrl-click on app to get to window list. Pretty simple.
So they keep buying XP from Microsoft and Microsoft loses? how?
Win7 over Vista:
- The best taskbar any OS has ever had. (Aero Peek, Jump Lists, Action Center, etc?)
- Less intrusive, but better overall, security.
- Reduced memory footprint.
- Much more streamlined wireless networking.
- Increased system performance, especially on the lower-end hardware.
Apple does a pretty great job at marketing low-level things the user never sees (Velocity Engine). Lots of hype. Maybe it will amount to something, maybe not.
Mac users in audio were running Altiverb from Audio Ease (convolution reverb) back when no PC had the oomph to do it. Altivec was more than just hype.
Aero Peek - yawn I slam my mouse to the lower left and my desktop is there with NO click
I haven't seen anything in Windows 7 that I can't do easily in OS X.
Win 7 doesn't appear to have anything as robust as Spotlight and the ability to tag.
How do I accomplish something like using Automator.
Win7= not impressed.
Are you serious?
Yes. It only shows linked apps, running apps, linked documents and minimized windows. What else?
I'm beginning to think that the folks saying that the only window access in the Dock is to minimized windows have never ctrl- or right-clicked on a Dock app icon.
I haven't talked about window access. But again, you can't see THAT there are windows open because on Mac OS an app does not need a window to run. That's why they have introduced Exposé.
I find it always annoying for example if you download an Firefox extension. There you have a small window of installed extensions that opens up a website infront of it. There is not a simple way to get to the previous window behind the website. You have to move windows around or activate another feature like Exposé or contextual menus. The gui is just hiding important information.
I haven't seen anything in Windows 7 that I can't do easily in OS X.
Try DPI scaling the GUI, or changing meta data on (multiple) files inside Explorer/Finder, or (multi-) touch or speech (haven't actually used it on Leopard but Vista is fantastic here. It's almost scary how good speech recognition is at these days)
I haven't talked about window access. But again, you can't see THAT there are windows open because on Mac OS an app does not need a window to run.
I'm curious - in Win7, it was my understanding that the Taskbar showed apps, not windows, and that you can pin them so they stay there even when they're not running.
How do you see that an app has windows open (or that a window instance of an app is running, take your pick of terminology), from just looking at the app icons? Or do you have to click on the app icon to see the selectable windows, much like the Dock?
Try DPI scaling the GUI, or changing meta data on (multiple) files inside Explorer/Finder, or (multi-) touch or speech (haven't actually used it on Leopard but Vista is fantastic here. It's almost scary how good speech recognition is at these days)
I'll give you speech. I wouldn't attempt to modify metadata via the finder. It would most likely be easier to do via Automator attached to a folder.
Speech recognition "is" good. I used to train in Nuance's NaturallySpeaking and it's better than the Vista stuff (of course ..as its more mature)
Though I do admit that editing the metadata for OS X should be a lot easier. After Apple finishes the low level stuff it's time to polish up neglected areas like the service menu, continue to evolve scripting and for the love of mercy make tagging system-wide (i'm going to keep complaing about until Apple makes it happen)
Windows 7 is more of a rebranding of Vista. It doesn't even offer the deep changes that Snow Leopard does with 64-bit kernel (because Vista already went there) and thread managing tools like Grand Central , Blocks and GPGPU with OpenCL.
It doesn't offer deep changes because all the changes were ALREADY in Vista. And somehow this is construed as a bad thing? Snow Leopard has to be a major architectural change because the kext, drivers, and kernel are not yet 64-bit. This release is about performance enhancement while cleaning up the kernel and enabling up to 256 logical processors support. Microsoft will also introduce DirectX 11 with GPGPU capabilities for Windows 7, and it'll be backward compatible with Vista! Will Leopard 10.5.x have Grand Central, GPGPU, and OpenCL capabilities?
Say what you want about the OS X Dock it was better than the Taskbar by a country mile.
The Dock was frustrating to use without Expose before Panther 10.3. Why do you think Apple finally added something better for windows management starting from Panther 10.3 on?
It doesn't offer deep changes because all the changes were ALREADY in Vista. And somehow this is construed as a bad thing? Snow Leopard has to be a major architectural change because the kext, drivers, and kernel are not yet 64-bit. This release is about performance enhancement while cleaning up the kernel and enabling up to 256 logical processors support. Microsoft will also introduce DirectX 11 with GPGPU capabilities for Windows 7, and it'll be backward compatible with Vista! Will Leopard 10.5.x have Grand Central, GPGPU, and OpenCL capabilities?
The Dock was frustrating to use without Expose before Panther 10.3. Why do you think Apple finally added something better for windows management starting from Panther 10.3 on?
I'm going to give both Microsoft and Apple a little credit here. Microsoft got Vista out and indeed it had a lot of architectural changes and new roadmaps. MS got a bit shafted by lazy developers and I expect Apple will feel the pain as well. Apple had to navigate a move to X86 and keep stalware developers like Microsoft, Macromedia and Adobe content with Carbon (Apple actually benefitted as well).
Windows7 "is" Vista. It's a rebranding ...not a new core OS so backporting Direct X 11 isn't going to be that hard. Snow Leopard represents a fundemental change in how the OS manages threading and the OpenGL pipeline and GPU. Developers can still use current api like OpenMP, NSOperation and whatever threading API exist but now they have the ability to use the Blocks paradigm.
I certainly do not think Windows is a bad OS. It's a bit gaudy in ways but Microsoft is moving forward and making some solid changes. Apple is doing exactly what it needs to be doing with Snow Leopard. For 10.7 I won't even require a lot of new whizzbang features...Apple can just deliver more polish and evolve what they have currently. Though I would like to see an apple speech technology developed. It never hurts to have multiple input modalities.
Mac users in audio were running Altiverb from Audio Ease (convolution reverb) back when no PC had the oomph to do it. Altivec was more than just hype.
Wow, all 10 people who used that regularly must've been overjoyed. Meanwhile, that "Altivec" crap was plastered everywhere as if it meant something to 90%+ of consumers.
Aero Peek - yawn I slam my mouse to the lower left and my desktop is there with NO click
You "slam" your mouse, yo? That's hardcore and tough.
And aero peek requires no clicking, unless you want to close a window from aero peek or select one of the windows to bring into focus. yawn dawg
I haven't seen anything in Windows 7 that I can't do easily in OS X.
I think that's because you haven't used Windows 7.
Win 7 doesn't appear to have anything as robust as Spotlight and the ability to tag.
Have you hit the Windows key and started typing something in Windows 7? (You'd have to actually use it to do that, I suppose, so I know the answer to that question.)
How do I accomplish something like using Automator.
No idea. (People actually use automator?)
I certainly do not think Windows is a bad OS. It's a bit gaudy in ways but Microsoft is moving forward and making some solid changes.
Windows is "gaudy"?
Jesus…
Kickaha:
I'm beginning to think that the folks saying that the only window access in the Dock is to minimized windows have never ctrl- or right-clicked on a Dock app icon.
If my MacBook Pro had a second mouse button I'd try it. But alas…
I always thought secondary mouse button functions were too advanced to do anything but offer an alternative for something otherwise available with a single click (or series of single clicks). I guess that changed magically…
hmurchison:
Wow, all 10 people who used that regularly must've been overjoyed. Meanwhile, that "Altivec" crap was plastered everywhere as if it meant something to 90%+ of consumers.
You "slam" your mouse, yo? That's hardcore and tough.
And aero peek requires no clicking, unless you want to close a window from aero peek or select one of the windows to bring into focus. yawn dawg
I think that's because you haven't used Windows 7.
Have you hit the Windows key and started typing something in Windows 7? (You'd have to actually use it to do that, I suppose, so I know the answer to that question.)
No idea. (People actually use automator?)
Windows is "gaudy"?
If you want to know the benefits of Altivec Google's your friends.
Hmmmm so Aero Peek = Mac OS circa 2005 with Tiger ..again yawn
Win 7 taskbar - OS X dock 2005 with a couple of twists yawn
Yes people DO use Automator. Where's the Win 7 equivalent? Yeah didn't think so
Hey you may not think it's guady but there's no accounting for good taste or lack thereof
I love snarky rebuttals that are high noise to signal. Wake me up with Microsoft ships something innovative.
Songsmith
FAIL
Altivec was a hype/marketing point that end-users didn't see and wasn't nearly as revolutionary performance-wise as was hyped. The same will doubtless be true of Grand Central.
Hmmmm so Aero Peek = Mac OS circa 2005 with Tiger ..again yawn
I don't know what this is supposed to mean. What Mac OS X 10.4 feature was similar to Aero Peek?
Win 7 taskbar - OS X dock 2005 with a couple of twists yawn
No, not really. The Vista taskbar was more like the dock than the Windows 7 taskbar is.
Yes people DO use Automator. Where's the Win 7 equivalent? Yeah didn't think so
There might be one, but I have no idea. And I don't know what your point in bringing up Automator even is in the context of this discussion.
FAIL
Christ, how old are you? Your d00d language from 4chan is embarrassing.
Altivec certain had benefits, just like every other set of multimedia extensions (like SSE, SSE2, MMX, and all those other obtuse acronyms). I'll go ahead and re-quote myself: "Apple does a pretty great job at marketing low-level things the user never sees (Velocity Engine)."
Altivec was a hype/marketing point that end-users didn't see and wasn't nearly as revolutionary performance-wise as was hyped. The same will doubtless be true of Grand Central.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean. What Mac OS X 10.4 feature was similar to Aero Peek?
No, not really. The Vista taskbar was more like the dock than the Windows 7 taskbar is.
There might be one, but I have no idea. And I don't know what your point in bringing up Automator even is in the context of this discussion.
Christ, how old are you? Your d00d language from 4chan is embarrassing.
Grove I'm old enough to know that this is argument that cannot be won. Everyone's computing needs are different and for many those needs are handled fine via Windows and for others Macintosh or Linux handles those needs.
I don't find Windows to to be aesthetically pleasing but that's just my perspective. I don't really have to proselytize Macs anymore. Apple sells millions per quarter and makes a healthy profit. If someone wants Windows as their primary OS then they should purchase Windows so you're correct it's not OS battles here but platform battles.
Windows 7 is more or less competing with Windows XP and Windows Vista. If Windows 7 does not have a large adoption, Microsoft is screwed. People love Windows XP and don't want to jump ship. Besides some new touch technologies built into the OS, what can Windows 7 offer people they do not already have with XP? Or better yet, with Vista?
How exactly is Microsoft screwed if people still use Windows XP and still pay them money to do so?
Also the argument of what can windows 7 really offer its users could just as easily be applied to snow leopard. It has even less new features than its predecessor. Fine it has a lot of changes under the hood but how many users are going to understand that. Especially when you consider one of them is 64-bit support. I think most Mac users who don't really care about the details are going to be thinking, didn't they advertise 64-bit support as something new in Tiger and then again in the first Leopard? Now once again its new....?
How exactly is Microsoft screwed if people still use Windows XP and still pay them money to do so?
They way Microsoft loses from people using XP is that they spend billions of dollars a year in R&D, and people would rather use a 8 year old product. So in the end, they're wasting their money because people's perception of their newer product is not favorable. I wouldn't say "screwed," more like "stuck". ANYWAYS, Windows 7 is shaping up nicely, I'd be happy to pay for it and bootcamp my macbook pro if the final version turns out well.