The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality

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  • northgatenorthgate Posts: 4,459member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    What complete jackasses! They support things like free enterprise and limited government. I'm pretty sure free enterprise is right up there terrorism.



    I never realized free enterprise ought to be uttered like a profanity.



    But you will admit they only support one side of the isle, right?
  • northgatenorthgate Posts: 4,459member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


    You're welcome to comment on the content of the article and that website, you know.



    It always amazes me how you guys refuse to read linked articles from progressive websites because "the data that is reported is selective and slanted". Right? Supporters of the GOP absolutely will not read linked articles from HuffPo, Center for American Progess, Media Matters or anyone they deem stupid fucking hippies.



    Which is your right. You don't trust the source, I get it.
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    It always amazes me how you guys refuse to read linked articles from progressive websites because "the data that is reported is selective and slanted". Right? Supporters of the GOP absolutely will not read linked articles from HuffPo, Center for American Progess, Media Matters or anyone they deem stupid fucking hippies.



    Which is your right. You don't trust the source, I get it.



    Stop it with the generalizations, already.



    It's an open invitation. There really is some good information at those links I posted.
  • northgatenorthgate Posts: 4,459member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


    Stop it with the generalizations, already.



    It's an open invitation. There really is some good information at those links I posted.



    So you haven't refused to read articles from progressive think tanks?
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    So you haven't refused to read articles from progressive think tanks?



    I try to read through everything that's linked, regardless of source. Just because I don't comment on it doesn't mean I haven't read it.
  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,250member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    But you will admit they only support one side of the isle, right?



    When you have a principle, you support whoever supports the principle. Is it your contention that only Republicans support the free market?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    It always amazes me how you guys refuse to read linked articles from progressive websites because "the data that is reported is selective and slanted". Right? Supporters of the GOP absolutely will not read linked articles from HuffPo, Center for American Progess, Media Matters or anyone they deem stupid fucking hippies.



    Which is your right. You don't trust the source, I get it.



    I have no idea what you are talking about. I read several liberal sources daily and I mean partisan liberal not just incidentally liberal like the NY Times. I have no problem going to HuffPo, Daily Kos or TPM. I won't watch cable news much though. Didn't we get over this back when I made a claim about the Al Franken book, WHICH I HAD READ, and then you all pissed and moaned because he had no index and I had to dig through it to find the claim again? You don't remember that?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


    I try to read through everything that's linked, regardless of source. Just because I don't comment on it doesn't mean I haven't read it.



    Exactlly.
  • frank777frank777 Posts: 5,698member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    Of course doctors oppose health care reform. They don't want their big fat paychecks to suffer.



    Wow. First it was 'Big Pharma', then HMO administrations, now Doctors.



    The Left hates everybody in the U.S. medical system except the Government?
  • northgatenorthgate Posts: 4,459member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


    Wow. First it was 'Big Pharma', then HMO administrations, now Doctors.



    The Left hates everybody in the U.S. medical system except the Government?



    So you don't think it's safe to wrap big pharma, doctors and insurers into a group who want to protect their status quo?



    I only "hate" when I see Supporters of the GOP support the murder of American citizens by way of the spreadsheet.



    I do find it hilarious that when the government is controlled by the GOP that you should be thankful that your "Daddy" is in charge. And when Democrats are in control Government is evil, evil, evil.



    Government can be trusted to keep us safe. Government can be trusted to invade other countries. Government can be trusted to control the cost of fuel. Government can be trusted to protect Wallstreet.



    But suddenly government can't be trusted with our health care.
  • northgatenorthgate Posts: 4,459member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


    I try to read through everything that's linked, regardless of source. Just because I don't comment on it doesn't mean I haven't read it.



    Funny how that doesn't apply to me.
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    So you don't think it's safe to wrap big pharma, doctors and insurers into a group who want to protect their status quo?



    I only "hate" when I see Supporters of the GOP support the murder of American citizens by way of the spreadsheet.



    I do find it hilarious that when the government is controlled by the GOP that you should be thankful that your "Daddy" is in charge. And when Democrats are in control Government is evil, evil, evil.



    Government can be trusted to keep us safe. Government can be trusted to invade other countries. Government can be trusted to control the cost of fuel. Government can be trusted to protect Wallstreet.



    But suddenly government can't be trusted with our health care.



    I don't believe I have ever said that government can be trusted to do anything outside its Constitutional bounds.
  • northgatenorthgate Posts: 4,459member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post


    I don't believe I have ever said that government can be trusted to do anything outside its Constitutional bounds.



    So what would Ron Paul do to fix the problem?
  • jazzgurujazzguru Posts: 6,435member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    So what would Ron Paul do to fix the problem?



    http://tinyurl.com/m8z9vy
  • frank777frank777 Posts: 5,698member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    So you don't think it's safe to wrap big pharma, doctors and insurers into a group who want to protect their status quo?



    No, it's not. Assigning altruistic motives to the government bureaucrats while painting everyone else in health care as 'in it for the money' is a diseased way of thinking.



    Lots of people study for years in medical and career schools because they want to help the hurting, discover new ways of treating illnesses or become a part of of a system that does that.



    How do you like it when people talk about filmmakers as a group who are willing to do anything for money?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    I only "hate" when I see Supporters of the GOP support the murder of American citizens by way of the spreadsheet.



    I don't know if this is some kind of crazy democratic talking point you're continually using, but it's fundamentally dishonest. I live in Canada, king of the Single-Payer system.



    There are plenty of people "dying by spreadsheet" over here.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northgate View Post


    I do find it hilarious that when the government is controlled by the GOP that you should be thankful that your "Daddy" is in charge. And when Democrats are in control Government is evil, evil, evil.



    Government can be trusted to keep us safe. Government can be trusted to invade other countries. Government can be trusted to control the cost of fuel. Government can be trusted to protect Wallstreet.



    Wow. That's just crazy. Conservatives on this board (and elsewhere) have continually advocated the exact opposite.



    Control the cost of fuel? What on earth...???
  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,250member
    Here is the crux of the matter, the fundimental problem that no amount of spin and pretty platitudes will make go away.



    We currently have government health care for certain segments of society. The cost of care for these segments is so high that it is estimated it will consume 100% of GDP and bankrupt the entire country within a relatively short timeframe (50-75 years depending upon the source.)



    Under health care "reform" we are going to apply this bankrupt solution to millions more, 45-105 million more depending upon the source.



    Some how we will save money by doing this and not have rationing.













    No one buys this. If government could do it right, we would already be saving money, not careening toward the financial abyss. If government were already doing us a favor in this regard, people would be clamoring for this solution instead of decrying it.
  • franksargentfranksargent Posts: 4,694member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    Here is the crux of the matter, the fundimental problem that no amount of spin and pretty platitudes will make go away.



    We currently have government health care for certain segments of society. The cost of care for these segments is so high that it is estimated it will consume 100% of GDP and bankrupt the entire country within a relatively short timeframe (50-75 years depending upon the source.)



    Under health care "reform" we are going to apply this bankrupt solution to millions more, 45-105 million more depending upon the source.



    Some how we will save money by doing this and not have rationing.



    No one buys this. If government could do it right, we would already be saving money, not careening toward the financial abyss. If government were already doing us a favor in this regard, people would be clamoring for this solution instead of decrying it.



    Definitely works for me.
  • groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Quote:

    If government could do it right, we would already be saving money, not careening toward the financial abyss.



    If the private corporate world could do it right, we would already be saving money, not careening toward the financial abyss.



    Wait...
  • involuntary_serfinvoluntary_serf Posts: 975member
    What I'm trying to figure out why so many people attribute the current problems in the health care marketplace entirely to the private entities and none of it to the government's actions in that marketplace.



    The prevailing belief seems to be that the free-market has failed in the health care market and government intervention is now required. But this is either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty because there is no such thing as a free-market in health care in this country. Nothing even close in fact. There is a massive amount of government "involvement" in this market, yet all of the failings are automatically assumed to be the result of the "free market" not the government actions.



    Why is that?
  • groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Quote:

    What I'm trying to figure out why so many people attribute the current problems in the health care marketplace entirely to the private entities and none of it to the government's actions in that marketplace.



    Straw man, ahoy!



    I think the problem with healthcare is the government-approved monopoly private corporations have on health insurance, as bought and paid for by lobbyists and executives in private health industries.



    We get the worst of both worlds here in American healthcare.
  • involuntary_serfinvoluntary_serf Posts: 975member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    Straw man, ahoy!



    You are entitled to your opinion. I don't see that as a straw man. I don't see much blame at all being placed at the feet of the government's actions in this area (and what blame is placed is usually in the form of claiming there isn't enough, not that the present actions might be causing these problems). All of the blame is being placed on the so-called "free market".





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    I think the problem with healthcare is the government-approved monopoly private corporations have on health insurance, as bought and paid for by lobbyists and executives in private health industries.



    Yes, and what's being proposed is even more of this. What's happening is effectively an even more centrally planned, monopolized, cartelized, controlled health care "market". This will be a disaster.
  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,250member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    If the private corporate world could do it right, we would already be saving money, not careening toward the financial abyss.



    Wait...



    When looking into areas of medicine that lack government involvement, prices continue to come down and quality continues to go up.
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