I have a real question for you all..

135

Comments

  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,255member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post


    I know you're a smart guy, but I do not understand why you chose to align yourself with everything that is sick and corrupt.



    Is it just a matter of survival?



    Survival? I'm a married school teacher with a stay at home wife, two kids and some good investments.



    I didn't know that qualified me for my overlord of the earth merit badge, but I'll double check my application.



    MarkUK, I consider you a decent fellow as well, though a bit angry at times. In real life I'm sure we would get along just fine. I believe the base of your anger is utopian ideals and I know that people will groan since it has been my talking point lately (not Drudge's, Free Republicans, RCP's or any other sources I am supposed to get all my "thinking" from) but it is very true.



    People complain about unfair resources allocation. Resource allocation has never, ever been fair in the history of the world. People assign all sorts of motivations and evil intent to those dealing with the current state claiming they are preventing the coming of a state that has never before existed. They claim for example that patriarchy is a sign of men being corrupt but contend that if we moved to a matriarchy it wouldn't be corrupt because, we are all the same, only we aren't because those not being allowed to do it now would do it better than those doing it now instead of falling prey to the same traps and corruptions. We know this because they are different... but the same.



    All these logical incongruities are just what I cannot fathom. I don't have trouble with them because I grew up rich, rather the opposite because I grew up poor. I've seen and done what it takes to climb up first hand. Additionally I've watched those who, rich or poor tried to have the path handed to them be it by family or by government end up not being able to walk it.



    I do feel it important for the government to insure we all have the right to pursue happiness. However I don't think the government can simply reallocate resources, attempt to force choices on others, and so forth to bring about happiness. I could go into much more depth about it but I don't want entirely derail the thread. My life experience simply leads me in the conservative direction. I've got sharp differences with both parties with regard to nation building. I don't believe that if you can't force happiness on a person, that you somehow can on a country. However I also understand, much like how our own families cause some drag on us with their decisions, how we are at times forced to engage the world and even forced into certain actions.
  • jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post


    I might take every opportunity to have a go at Bush and the whole admin at every opportunity, but at the end of the day, he's not running anything. He is just a puppet, he's not in control, he isn't making the decisions, he was just a reformed drunk who was chosen because he would be publically attractive.



    There are 2 things going on here, either



    1) The trainwreck was planned and is going according to plan.



    2) The train has left the tracks and no-one has yet noticed.



    While I can think up many reasons and piece them all together that the seemingly rapid chaos unfolding infront of us, is the result of the train leaving the tracks - I just cant quite believe that it hasn't been planned.



    Its very very easy to look at Bush and co, and convince yourself that this guy could not fight his way out of a paper bag, therefore it must all be a trainwreck. But it isn't so. Yes there is a trainwreck, but is it because the track naturally broke, or was it sabotaged by design?



    I think it was by design.



    Yes, there will be a trainwreck, and it will hurt, far more than we can imagine, but there is a reason for this. It wont serve you, me, trumpman, fellowship or anyone posting at this board any good at all.



    Even if we manage to pull through this time, this is the last time we will play pass the parcel of doom. The whole system has been set up to eventually fail. This was not an issue when it was set up, because now was a long time in the future. But 'now' really is 'now', its just a question of is it 'really now' or 'almost now'.



    What rises out of the ashes of 'now' is anyones guess.



    Certainly, the collapse of the dollar, the oil and the energy, the NAU, the Euro, the one-world government, the world bank, IMF, UN -all has a part in this, but what we dont know, is who is pulling the strings, and what the agenda is.



    One thing you can be sure of, is that whatever happens has been happening since before we were born and will take more than yours or my lifetime to resolve, and that means that what is coming is going to be a whole world of pain.







    Well that's one viewpoint. It's just not the scenero I believe in. As you may have guessed I do read a lot of Science fiction ( or future speculation ) and are aware of these things. But if you take the negative viewpoint because that's just the nature of the beast well then we're really doomed as a speices and there's no point in speculating what will rise from the aforementioned ashes. What ever it is it won't be us.



    I tend to think of this as our childhood. Childhood is often painful and full of mistakes. That's how you learn. We might not make it out but then again we just might. I'm 55 and all of my life people have been predicting the end in one form or another ( and I'm sure long before that ). When I was a kid it was nuclear war. That didn't happen because anyone who would have done it realized there's no winner. Our world has become so global we're dependant on each other. Sure we might have a 1984 type scenero in the cards but I just don't think so. Sceneros like that are isolationistic by their very nature. We can't afford it now. and by " We " I mean everyone. The whole world. We're at a juncture now where we have to learn to cooperate with each other regardless of what someone behind the scenes has planned.



    We're in a process that if there are other cultures on other planets ( and really is there any doubt ) probably all go through or don't survive. How long or difficult depends on how resistant we are to the process.



    Sorry but in the long run I'm just more positive about the whole thing.
  • jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post


    I just have to get this off my chest.



    We all have our issue of the day. Complaint of the month soapbox topic / issue what have you.. We all have our ideas and our dislikes etc. That is what makes us a fun bunch to be around despite our differences. We are indeed opinionated creatures here at the AI PO forum.



    Now the obvious being stated above I have a real honest to goodness question for you all to think about and invite your reply.



    Hear me out:



    We all have issues and ideas that we hold in high regard or bias towards a stated goal of x, y or z etc..



    We all have issues and ideas that we hold in great contempt that when viewed we just can't understand how anyone could be for x, y or z idea / action / philosophy etc..



    Now that being said....



    Some of us might yearn for socialized health care, others might wish for tax cuts, some want to go to war and on and on the merry-go-round goes...



    My question is... (it is a series of questions really) and here it really is so take note and get ready to reply with your thoughts:



    -At what point do we in America decide that we have allowed our national debt to get "too high" to allow it to continue spiral out of control?



    -At what point do we realize that we are setting up a guaranteed failure of a situation for our children and their children?



    -When will we elect leaders who will actually address and engage in this matter of finance which will affect our children and their children?



    -Do we have the courage as Americans to put our wishes and desires a bit on the back burner for the intent and purpose of creating a more secure financial environment for our children?



    -At what point do we realize that we need to be careful stewards of the national budget and local municipal government budgets as well? Remember our children and their children will be paying taxes at all levels of government.



    Do we allow sales tax percentages to rise at the local sales tax level?

    Do we allow unfettered toll roads?

    Do we allow property taxes to continue to rise?

    Do we add further surcharges to every service piped into our homes? Phone etc.

    Do we allow car registration fees to continue to rise?

    Do we allow the percentage of national budget which goes towards interest payments on the national debt to continue to climb as a percentage of the budget?



    I ask because when it comes to matters like this the question eventually becomes:



    What do we expect our children and their children when adults to be able to handle and withstand as it pertains to the tax burden they will be faced with considering the seeming unchanging reality of big spending government both local, state and federal and there never seems to be a whole lot of restraint. Just more arguments for larger budgets, more money for this, for that, and the next thing.



    Do we just think the economy can solve this via the old "grow our way to prosperity" mantra?



    Grow the economy and the debt will not be so bad in light of the growing economy... yada yada yada...



    Create the environment for business to do well and we can grow the economy yada yada yada you know the rest. We can satisfy our debt obligations etc. etc.



    DO WE REALLY BELIEVE THIS... and THINK WE CAN EAT OUR CAKE TOO>>?



    I think we are doing the most unthinkable. The most immoral thing possible. We are robbing our children of a future. We are putting chains around them financially and nobody seems to care.



    We are not acting with the courage the wisdom or the restraint to do the right thing for the future generations.





    WHY!!!!!!!?



    Why are we so unable to take a breather and pause for a second to take inventory of where we are as a nation and then after that take care to mend and correct our ways to the best of our ability?



    Are we letting Greed and momentary profits get in the way? Are we simply asleep and willingly ignorant??



    Is that it?



    or



    WHAT?



    Please respond with your thoughts...



    Fellows



    Wither or not you like him here's a little something pertaining to that subject :



    http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/20...-more-divided/



    Bill Clinton: America becoming more divided
  • marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jimmac View Post


    Well that's one viewpoint. It's just not the scenero I believe in. As you may have guessed I do read a lot of Science fiction ( or future speculation ) and are aware of these things. But if you take the negative viewpoint because that's just the nature of the beast well then we're really doomed as a speices and there's no point in speculating what will rise from the aforementioned ashes. What ever it is it won't be us.



    I tend to think of this as our childhood. Childhood is often painful and full of mistakes. That's how you learn. We might not make it out but then again we just might. I'm 55 and all of my life people have been predicting the end in one form or another ( and I'm sure long before that ). When I was a kid it was nuclear war. That didn't happen because anyone who would have done it realized there's no winner. Our world has become so global we're dependant on each other. Sure we might have a 1984 type scenero in the cards but I just don't think so. Sceneros like that are isolationistic by their very nature. We can't afford it now. and by " We " I mean everyone. The whole world. We're at a juncture now where we have to learn to cooperate with each other regardless of what someone behind the scenes has planned.



    We're in a process that if there are other cultures on other planets ( and really is there any doubt ) probably all go through or don't survive. How long or difficult depends on how resistant we are to the process.



    Sorry but in the long run I'm just more positive about the whole thing.



    Its all as well having hope and humanity, but at some point, someone has got to have a solution and some action has to be taken.



    Have you got one? Have you got the slightest clue how we bring ourselves back from this mess and have a sustainable future?



    Lets be honest, the mess we are in is totally unprecedented in all history, the only way out this time is that we have to secure more resources by force, hoodwink the world into buying the exponential debt and loaning us ever more money, fooling them into believing the currency is worth more than the paper it is written on. Even if it was possible to do that one more time...even that is still doomed to failure.



    Hope and humanity can only sort out so much, in the end, the fraud and deception is going to catch up. Is that now, or is that tomorrow?



    Anyway, Im not actually sat here 'feeling' as doom and gloom as my words may suggest, im not angry or whatever, quite happy and calm as it were. Im not trying to spread fear and doubt, i'd just like a serious discussion on reality.
  • jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post


    Its all as well having hope and humanity, but at some point, someone has got to have a solution and some action has to be taken.



    Have you got one? Have you got the slightest clue how we bring ourselves back from this mess and have a sustainable future?



    Lets be honest, the mess we are in is totally unprecedented in all history, the only way out this time is that we have to secure more resources by force, hoodwink the world into buying the exponential debt and loaning us ever more money, fooling them into believing the currency is worth more than the paper it is written on. Even if it was possible to do that one more time...even that is still doomed to failure.



    Hope and humanity can only sort out so much, in the end, the fraud and deception is going to catch up. Is that now, or is that tomorrow?



    Anyway, Im not actually sat here 'feeling' as doom and gloom as my words may suggest, im not angry or whatever, quite happy and calm as it were. Im not trying to spread fear and doubt, i'd just like a serious discussion on reality.



    Well to find the solution to all of this isn't up to me or any one person. Like I've said I liken it to a natural process. At times it seems really quite dark. I imagine people thought the same thing about the Napoleon, Nazi occupation, or nuclear war. We always seem to wise up and avoid that wall. This isn't an act of god however. It's an act of humanity. We could change it all tomorrow. It only takes the collective will to do so. The only difference in these times is the whole world needs to decide to change this time. I don't have " The answer ". I do however have faith that it will work out in the end because it has to. This isn't the first time we've played chicken with destiny.
  • marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    Survival? I'm a married school teacher with a stay at home wife, two kids and some good investments.



    I didn't know that qualified me for my overlord of the earth merit badge, but I'll double check my application.



    MarkUK, I consider you a decent fellow as well, though a bit angry at times. In real life I'm sure we would get along just fine. I believe the base of your anger is utopian ideals and I know that people will groan since it has been my talking point lately (not Drudge's, Free Republicans, RCP's or any other sources I am supposed to get all my "thinking" from) but it is very true.



    People complain about unfair resources allocation. Resource allocation has never, ever been fair in the history of the world. People assign all sorts of motivations and evil intent to those dealing with the current state claiming they are preventing the coming of a state that has never before existed. They claim for example that patriarchy is a sign of men being corrupt but contend that if we moved to a matriarchy it wouldn't be corrupt because, we are all the same, only we aren't because those not being allowed to do it now would do it better than those doing it now instead of falling prey to the same traps and corruptions. We know this because they are different... but the same.



    All these logical incongruities are just what I cannot fathom. I don't have trouble with them because I grew up rich, rather the opposite because I grew up poor. I've seen and done what it takes to climb up first hand. Additionally I've watched those who, rich or poor tried to have the path handed to them be it by family or by government end up not being able to walk it.



    I do feel it important for the government to insure we all have the right to pursue happiness. However I don't think the government can simply reallocate resources, attempt to force choices on others, and so forth to bring about happiness. I could go into much more depth about it but I don't want entirely derail the thread. My life experience simply leads me in the conservative direction. I've got sharp differences with both parties with regard to nation building. I don't believe that if you can't force happiness on a person, that you somehow can on a country. However I also understand, much like how our own families cause some drag on us with their decisions, how we are at times forced to engage the world and even forced into certain actions.



    Im not talking about essentially personal utopian ideology - what I would like to see happen is my own preference, and those preferences are subject to flaws and ignorance as much as any other idealogy, utopian or not.



    The alignment I am talking about, is aligning oneself politically to an idealogy that states that one must adhere to



    living indefinately far beyond the sustainable means of the country

    bankrupting the nation and exporting the debt fraudulently

    invading other soverign countries to secure new resources

    creating false flag operations to prime nations for invasion or attack

    attempting to destroy any person that attempts to stand up to or desire this stops



    I could go on - for hours!, but you get the picture. This is not standing in opposition because of personal utopian idealogy. This is opposing, because everything you align yourself with is disgusting, corrupt and essentially destined to bring destruction to every person, every culture, every country in the world.



    It is just not common sense to persue and align to an idealogy that ultimately brings about everyones destruction.



    Even if you came to the conclusion that all the above absolutely has to happen and there is no other way, why would you publically align to it?



    Everything neo-con publically aligns to this method of operation, says it has to be this way, and then makes the person feel pride that this is the mode of operation. An inalienable right to have everything, control everything, and be damn proud of it too.



    I dont think democrats are much better. In my utopia I would have the lot of them drop dead , but there is something more sick and inhuman about the republican party and the people who align themselves with it.
  • marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jimmac View Post


    The only difference in these times is the whole world needs to decide to change this time.



    And that is why most of us are fucked. It wont happen until 80% of the world is dead. It wont happen until the oil has completely run out. It wont happen until every crop fails. It wont happen until the sea has risen 30metres. It wont happen until the sky has turned black.



    That is reality. Reality states that while one person can see potential of a profit at the expense of a thousand peoples lives, things will continue as normal.



    And the best part of it will be, that the few who remain to build the new world, will be the bastards who destroyed the present one.



    calm and happy here
  • jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post


    And that is why most of us are fucked. It wont happen until 80% of the world is dead. It wont happen until the oil has completely run out. It wont happen until every crop fails. It wont happen until the sea has risen 30metres. It wont happen until the sky has turned black.



    That is reality. Reality states that while one person can see potential of a profit at the expense of a thousand peoples lives, things will continue as normal.



    And the best part of it will be, that the few who remain to build the new world, will be the bastards who destroyed the present one.



    calm and happy here



    Yes my girlfriend thinks just like you. She thinks human nature can't change and it's the nature of the beast. I think we can and have been all along.



    However for this to play out will probably as you say require more than our own meager lifetimes.
  • fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post


    Im not talking about essentially personal utopian ideology - what I would like to see happen is my own preference, and those preferences are subject to flaws and ignorance as much as any other idealogy, utopian or not.



    The alignment I am talking about, is aligning oneself politically to an idealogy that states that one must adhere to



    living indefinately far beyond the sustainable means of the country

    bankrupting the nation and exporting the debt fraudulently

    invading other soverign countries to secure new resources

    creating false flag operations to prime nations for invasion or attack

    attempting to destroy any person that attempts to stand up to or desire this stops



    I could go on - for hours!, but you get the picture. This is not standing in opposition because of personal utopian idealogy. This is opposing, because everything you align yourself with is disgusting, corrupt and essentially destined to bring destruction to every person, every culture, every country in the world.



    It is just not common sense to persue and align to an idealogy that ultimately brings about everyones destruction.



    Even if you came to the conclusion that all the above absolutely has to happen and there is no other way, why would you publically align to it?



    Everything neo-con publically aligns to this method of operation, says it has to be this way, and then makes the person feel pride that this is the mode of operation. An inalienable right to have everything, control everything, and be damn proud of it too.



    I dont think democrats are much better. In my utopia I would have the lot of them drop dead , but there is something more sick and inhuman about the republican party and the people who align themselves with it.



    One of the best posts I have read in some time.



    Nick knows exactly what you are saying here but he will most likely remain a neocon cheerleader sadly. I say this and I like Nick. I just can't understand his pig headed stubborn ways with regard to faithfully sticking to his neocon guns.





    Some of us have seen the bullshit for what it is and no longer drink the neocon cool-aid.



    Well said MarcUK



    Fellows
  • fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post




    Anyway, Im not actually sat here 'feeling' as doom and gloom as my words may suggest, im not angry or whatever, quite happy and calm as it were. Im not trying to spread fear and doubt, i'd just like a serious discussion on reality.



    You are right Marc to notice what you notice. It does not automatically mean you are purely negative or any such thing.









    Fellows
  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,255member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post


    Im not talking about essentially personal utopian ideology - what I would like to see happen is my own preference, and those preferences are subject to flaws and ignorance as much as any other idealogy, utopian or not.



    Well except for the fact that you have just described the downfall of every civilization since the dawn of time. The fact that you think it something new is again, utopian in my view. You define criteria that all current political parties fail to address and the problem is more where the United States happens to be within the arc of being a country/empire than who is currently ruling it.



    I'll try to explain with each of your points.



    Quote:

    living indefinately far beyond the sustainable means of the country



    I'd go even further than that and for reasons you probably won't agree with. The concept of retirement for dozens of years before death, and the concept of the government financing it via intergenerational wealth transfers is clearly not a sustainable means of living and sustaining the country.



    Also no country in history has avoided the government tampering with its own currency. This isn't neocon thing anymore than it was a Roman Emperor thing back when. Governments and the promises they have made are what destroys a nation-state. Those promises can be military, they can be societal, no matter what they end up destroying the nation.



    The fiat money situation in the U.S. is terrible and I have addressed at length on my blog and here. However it isn't like there is a way to run from it. Every major economy/country on the planet now has a fiat currency and all are printing and manipulating it against each other be it to avoid exporting wealth, gain trade advantages, creation of debt, etc.



    Quote:

    bankrupting the nation and exporting the debt fraudulently



    Again based of debt as a percentage of GDP, pretty much every western nation is either broke or on their way to being broke. Is the U.S. really fraudulent when it's GDP debt is 60% while France's is 64%, Germany's is 63% and Japan's is 195%?



    Every nation that has a large array of entitlements is suffering from this. We can argue that the U.S. has traded their entitlements for a military complex used to create an empire in an attempt to keep peace, but that doesn't mean the others haven't committed spent and still have huge entitlements that are bankrupting them. No one is in the clear with a non-expanding supply of fiat currency or non-fiat currency and a sustainable population including reasonable reproduction rate, and finally entitlements that do not cause debt or create a soon to be bankruptcy scenario.



    It doesn't exist. No one has done it. You may like what they are printing money for or creating debt for a little better in one place versus another, but the point is everyone is doing it.



    Quote:

    invading other soverign countries to secure new resources



    Again who hasn't and won't continue to do this. Is it better if instead of invading your print fake bills to steal the resources?



    Russia for example has a national debt that is 7% of GDP and sells oil to Europe which is just as bankrupt as the U.S. Russia has an current entitlement system that I am sure would be considered course or crude by European standards. Yet Europe prints money and creates next to no wealth to give to Russia to pay for the oil. They do this because they have a huge entitlement system.



    Quote:

    creating false flag operations to prime nations for invasion or attack



    Or better still oil for food systems and ignoring genocide in their backyard.



    Quote:

    attempting to destroy any person that attempts to stand up to or desire this stops



    Of course the person standing up to it really doesn't desire to replace those they claim are causing the harm and then turn around and cause the same harm. Sure this has been the pattern for... oh .... all of humanity... but still... let's expect different now.



    Quote:

    I could go on - for hours!, but you get the picture. This is not standing in opposition because of personal utopian idealogy. This is opposing, because everything you align yourself with is disgusting, corrupt and essentially destined to bring destruction to every person, every culture, every country in the world.



    We could both go on for hours. You can reduce your thinking down to binary results, vote for 1 instead of 0 and then still get the same outcome. How has communist or socialist thinking preserved every culture in every country in the world as an example. Both are at their core, claimed scientific attempts to reorganize and better society that specifically ignore culture, traditions, etc.



    This is why in my view, the vote that produces the most wealth is the best instead of worrying about how it is distributed fairly. No one has ever distributed it fairly but life has gotten better for all when these rich folks produce millions of cars, televisions, air conditioners, etc all so they can be "richer" than me. You may not claim a personal utopian ideology but you certain talk a global one.



    Quote:

    It is just not common sense to persue and align to an idealogy that ultimately brings about everyones destruction.



    Myself and other conservatives do not pursue this. Regardless of what you Mr. Frank believe, a belief in self-reliance does not equal self-destruction.



    Quote:

    Even if you came to the conclusion that all the above absolutely has to happen and there is no other way, why would you publically align to it?



    Even if the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, why would I publicly align to myself to systems that acknowledge this, work within it, and happen to better the lives of all of us in doing so? I do so because pretending the sun can rise in a different manner is pointless. Humans are self-interested creatures. Everyone who claims no self-interest and only good intention sure seems to get rich off of, or exploit the results of those good intentions. Gordon chastises you all not to waste food while eating a banquet. Global warming defenders all fly in on personal jets to meet for extravagant conferences. I don't see many Mother Teresas out there.



    Hitler came to power with good intentions. Mao, Castro, Lenin all claimed good intentions and millions died for their 'good' ideas.



    Quote:

    Everything neo-con publically aligns to this method of operation, says it has to be this way, and then makes the person feel pride that this is the mode of operation. An inalienable right to have everything, control everything, and be damn proud of it too.



    I dont think democrats are much better. In my utopia I would have the lot of them drop dead , but there is something more sick and inhuman about the republican party and the people who align themselves with it.



    Again I can go on with examples. I certainly do not think anyone on the left has any sort of moral high ground. A thief is a thief. A thief with printing currency or confiscating with taxes is still a thief. The job either generates enough wealth to give a certain lifestyle or it doesn't and stealing to make that so isn't honorable.
  • fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    but the point is everyone is doing it.



    Wow Nick....... Wow...



    How can anyone top that?



    EVERYONE IS DOING IT!!!!!!!





    So There...



    Fellows
  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,255member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post


    Wow Nick....... Wow...



    How can anyone top that?



    EVERYONE IS DOING IT!!!!!!!





    So There...



    Fellows



    You are welcome to show me a country/major economy that is not utilizing a fiat currency.



    So There yourself...
  • @_@ artman@_@ artman Posts: 5,231member




    It's what this current administration does with the money, whom they give it to and how we seem to "misplace" it again and again.



    Of course this has happened before this administration, but that doesn't escape the fact that this hasn't helped the current situation in the Middle East at all or the waste it brings. Much less African or Israeli aid.
  • fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    You are welcome to show me a country/major economy that is not utilizing a fiat currency.



    So There yourself...



    So this is your way of ignoring the dilution of the US Dollar as it continues to fall in free fall.



    "everyone else has a fiat currency"



    Mortgage crisis sub-prime loans etc.. Does your response go like this "Other countries have bad loans"



    I mean come on Nick it is like you try to deflect and diffuse much needed criticism with each of your arguments.



    Saying other countries do the "same thing" does nothing to solve the underlying core problems which are at the root of the matter.



    Would you not agree??



    Fellows
  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,255member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post


    So this is your way of ignoring the dilution of the US Dollar as it continues to fall in free fall.



    "everyone else has a fiat currency"



    Mortgage crisis sub-prime loans etc.. Does your response go like this "Other countries have bad loans"



    I mean come on Nick it is like you try to deflect and diffuse much needed criticism with each of your arguments.



    Saying other countries do the "same thing" does nothing to solve the underlying core problems which are at the root of the matter.



    Would you not agree??



    Fellows



    Bad is bad. All I am noting is that anyone who thinks that they can escape one bad by going to another bad is deluding themselves. You do stocks so you know that there are times where entire sectors are whacked because of one bad apple and other times the sector is down because it is a bad sector to be in. The claim from MarkUK is that the United States is a bad apple and is dragging down the sector. My claim is that the sector itself (Western Civilization) is bad and will have problems no matter which company you buy in that sector.



    You also know that when doing stocks that the shorts will come in and try to apply crushing pressure to a falling stock to make even more money and drive the price even lower than the fundamentals dictate. I believe that this is true when comparing one fiat currency versus another, most specifically the dollar versus the euro.



    Noting other countries do have bad loans, I can note specifically that Australia, England and Spain at a minimum have a property bubble that was as bad or worse than ours. In the past we could declare that bad loans were contained within certain banks or a certain country. With securitization, that is no longer true. These bad performing 'debt instruments' are everywhere. If you think they aren't then you are wrong and what need to realize is that most countries do not demand the level of transparency in financial markets that the United States requires. Most Asian markets specifically tend to generate strange government numbers that are made-up and do not add up when you look at the component pieces that should derive that number.



    I had this same discussion in the recession thread that was in AO. The points there are relevant here. BRIC ROW is not going to save anyone. If the U.S. sneezes the rest of the world absolutely will catch a cold. If people dump the dollar and turn the United States into Argentina, they will turn themselves into the Philippines.



    Now people want the blame the core problems that you note, on business but in reality it is government or decisions businesses have had to render based of government actions. Politicians bribe us with our own money. They cannot fund their promises, even in wonderful Europe, so they cheat and take on debt while messing with the currency. The core problem is government. If you dig far enough back into most solutions we call "market" they are still distorted by government intervention and regulation.



    A great example of this health care. Doctors used to charge reasonable rates. The creation of employer provided health insurance, where people keep making claims and ever negotiate a rate or pay a bill, came about due to the government freezing wages during WWII and employers desperately trying to attract and retain employees. Then we flash forward to today and no one negotiates a rate for a procedure. The doctors charge whatever they want and additionally they increasingly charge high rates on those who have insurance to cover the reimbursement rate for Medicare patients who keep having their reimbursement rates frozen or cut. Optional health procedures keep declining in price. Dental care is still very reasonable in price compared to medical care (even with the insurance angle) yet people keep wanting to take a bigger hammer to the problem when the problem is the hammer. The hammer is government.
  • fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post




    Now people want the blame the core problems that you note, on business but in reality it is government or decisions businesses have had to render based of government actions. Politicians bribe us with our own money. They cannot fund their promises, even in wonderful Europe, so they cheat and take on debt while messing with the currency. The core problem is government. If you dig far enough back into most solutions we call "market" they are still distorted by government intervention and regulation.



    Actually I blame the intervention of the last fed chief and his lowering of rates far far too low to keep the party rolling past the time it should have had a "natural" correction. Because of the rate policy of Greenspan and the dollar printing spree of Uncle Ben in recent years we are now facing a situation that is far far far further out of control than it would have been had it been able to have a natural correction back when Greenspan was fed chief. This is not about bashing business or Europe vs/ the US. My concern is with the continuing bad policy coming to the entire world from the fed.



    Quote:

    A great example of this health care. Doctors used to charge reasonable rates. The creation of employer provided health insurance, where people keep making claims and ever negotiate a rate or pay a bill, came about due to the government freezing wages during WWII and employers desperately trying to attract and retain employees. Then we flash forward to today and no one negotiates a rate for a procedure. The doctors charge whatever they want and additionally they increasingly charge high rates on those who have insurance to cover the reimbursement rate for Medicare patients who keep having their reimbursement rates frozen or cut. Optional health procedures keep declining in price. Dental care is still very reasonable in price compared to medical care (even with the insurance angle) yet people keep wanting to take a bigger hammer to the problem when the problem is the hammer. The hammer is government.



    Nick there are sectors of our economy that need common sense oversight with regulative authority to enforce parameters in order to maintain a sound market environment. Lending is a prime example of failed lax regulations leading to where we are today. One sector which is not monitored properly and allowed to veer off course for the goal of short term profits at the expense of long term national damage is not acceptable.



    Again common sense is key to these general common sense oversight regulative measures.



    The problem with the fed is that they wanted to keep the party going artificially and all that has done is prolong and amplify the inevitable result which is a correction in valuations. With both rate cuts during the time of Greenspan combined with Ben raining down dollars from the sky above we are experiencing the results of this "bad" tinkering of the markets.



    Don't do away with common sense oversight of lending practices which would help to maintain stability in the marketplace because you think regulations in general are bad.



    We all have seen plenty of bad regulative practices and the results which ensue however this is no time to throw out the baby with the bath water.



    Fellows
  • nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Hi Marc,



    America has several escape routes. As a country of 300+ million, there is enough "space" in the world for them to escape to.



    As you say, there are a few ways this could happen. Further wars, invasion and so-on is clearly starting to be very unpalatable, also because there are no clear short-term results.



    The other option is what has happened in many countries when things didn't go well. Emigration, and immigration.



    As a small country of 30 million people, Malaysia has this occurring. Of course, throughout history, we can also look at Eastern European countries, etc.



    The cream of the crop in terms of education and wealth (especially) have high global mobility, so they are covered.



    The higher class in terms of education and reasonable (not excess/obscene) wealth will move to locations in the world where they find a better way of life. If you are American born of whatever ethnicity with a strong Bachelors or Master's degree, you have many, many options to go to Australia, EU, Canada, China, India etc. The "itching point" is the consideration and expense of being an expatriate or starting a new life compared to how much on the downhill track you think your own country has become.



    So there may be large levels of emigration.



    However, there is also a large level of immigration. Because as the USA declines, it is perhaps already, and will, occupy a large chunk of socioeconomic space between developed and developing worlds.



    So there will also be immigration. As phail as some US systems have become, they still top India and South East Asia in a lot of ways.



    The third redeeming point and opportunity is opportunism itself.



    Every part of the big wide land that is the USA still offers many, many unique selling points to the global community both rich and poor and particularly, the very rich. Here are examples:



    1. Las Vegas

    2. California (wine, lifestyle, technology)

    3. Education systems (tertiary level still very strong and diverse, primary+secondary level is mostly not that great on average)

    4. Military strength and technology

    5. Sovereign wealth funds: for example, the Singaporean government could buy the whole of Apple,Inc. and would still have money to spare.



    As I said before, the decline of Western civilisation is grossly exaggerated. But this is only applicable when Western perceptions are viewed in a very wide, global perspective.
  • nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post


    And that is why most of us are fucked. It wont happen until 80% of the world is dead. It wont happen until the oil has completely run out. It wont happen until every crop fails. It wont happen until the sea has risen 30metres. It wont happen until the sky has turned black.



    That is reality. Reality states that while one person can see potential of a profit at the expense of a thousand peoples lives, things will continue as normal.



    And the best part of it will be, that the few who remain to build the new world, will be the bastards who destroyed the present one.



    calm and happy here



    Most people will currently fall into two categories in the world is f*ked scenario. One is those who have realised, in which we seek new solutions, some even considered extremely radical.



    The other is what humanity has done for millenia. Just survive. Whether it be the ice age, a big ass flood, a few cities nuked and generations of humankind genetically deformed, war, that may continue. If we bombed our collective asses back to pre-stone age, well, one day somebody will come out of the caves.



    Whether or not you buy into the 2012 theory we are clearly at the crux of something here where things could go either way. Something is happening. Something is new. People are waking up to something, and others are wondering what the hell these "awakened" people are up to, yet following new trends (eg. carbon footprint concerns) for better or worse.



    Remember the escape valve may be faster than light travel, solar system terraforming, floating cities on Venus, etc. etc. which could be unleashed within 150 years, as long as we don't use the technology required to access these feats to blow the f*k out of ourselves and literally wipe out the planet.



    I believe that in certain states I have had a conversation with Gaia itself, and it told me that if you consider the habitable layer of the Earth, it really is tiny. We mess it up at our own peril. The Earth will happily go on for another few billions of years with or without us. So too most of the solar system. In either case were we to access resources that could wipe out the solar system, the result would be our access to supernovae-level technology which again, would imply either we harness it for "better", or we simply create a supernovae as a result of various stupidity and destroy everything within 5 light years.



    The universe (our current dimension) is a big, big place, and has been around a long, long time. If humans are too stupid to even realise wtf is going on, well, then we/they don't deserve to enjoy the fruits of any higher level of thinking/ spirituality/ contact.
  • trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,255member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post


    Actually I blame the intervention of the last fed chief and his lowering of rates far far too low to keep the party rolling past the time it should have had a "natural" correction. Because of the rate policy of Greenspan and the dollar printing spree of Uncle Ben in recent years we are now facing a situation that is far far far further out of control than it would have been had it been able to have a natural correction back when Greenspan was fed chief. This is not about bashing business or Europe vs/ the US. My concern is with the continuing bad policy coming to the entire world from the fed.



    You need to go further back. All that has been happening with Greenspan, Bernanke and their predecessors is a deferral of pain via growing bubbles every since we went off gold and I mean the gold standard before Nixon. Now the bubbles even move around the world. Part of our recession in the early 90's was caused by Japan. We cannot keep or the fed cannot defend such low interest rates without the approval and reinvested "savings" of most pacific rim countries who do so willingly because they have their own credit and corruption bubbles to siphon off to remain in power within their respective nations. Again in that recession thread I noted that China is going to be the 2010 version of Japan.



    A "natural" correction means actually going through a protracted recession. Since this tosses politicians out of power, they just prolong the pain and pass the buck.(literally not just figuratively) The closest we came to fixing this was the Republican revolution majority but as they began to desire holding office longer and succumbed to the benefits of holding power, they earmarked themselves and us to death with unending spending just like the Democrats they replaced.



    The choices now are between worse(RINOS) and worst.(Democrats) There is no one who talks of truly balancing the budget or also of creating free trade without currency manipulation. The latter is close to impossible anyway with a fiat money system.



    You say that it is not about bashing business or the U.S. versus Europe, but we do not live in isolation. Europe largely demands we defend them and spends their own military budgets on entitlements to keep their people happy and unquestioning. Even with us shouldering the military costs they cannot afford the entitlements and so a two tiered society is appearing there, much like here based on generational lines. The boomer and above generation is generally well-employed and happy. The younger children of these boomers, the children of wasted wealth via broken homes and divorce and also the immigrants that are expected to replace the euro boomers are largely unemployed until their early 30's. They spend a fair amount of time living in ethnic enclaves, or with their boomer parents and spend their days binge drinking, burning cars and stabbing each other.



    In Asia the bank system is profoundly broken and has no transparency. They have loan products that make our negative amortization loans look like a walk in the park. The banks make these loans knowing there is no chance they will ever be paid back. The government demands they do so to help grow the economy, to try to generate domestic demand in an entirely export driven economy and also to help create currency that the government doesn't want to print in an attempt to hold off inflation when dollars should be flooding the market. Eventually the inflation can't be contained, and it explodes with a deflationary spiral only instead of housing as in the U.S. it is the entire economy.



    Quote:

    Nick there are sectors of our economy that need common sense oversight with regulative authority to enforce parameters in order to maintain a sound market environment. Lending is a prime example of failed lax regulations leading to where we are today. One sector which is not monitored properly and allowed to veer off course for the goal of short term profits at the expense of long term national damage is not acceptable.



    Again common sense is key to these general common sense oversight regulative measures.



    The problem with the fed is that they wanted to keep the party going artificially and all that has done is prolong and amplify the inevitable result which is a correction in valuations. With both rate cuts during the time of Greenspan combined with Ben raining down dollars from the sky above we are experiencing the results of this "bad" tinkering of the markets.



    Don't do away with common sense oversight of lending practices which would help to maintain stability in the marketplace because you think regulations in general are bad.



    We all have seen plenty of bad regulative practices and the results which ensue however this is no time to throw out the baby with the bath water.



    No one said pure laisse faire but your cited lending is a terrible example. The banks are basically forced to lend via the fed who keeps attempting to re-inflate bubbles. The banks are commanded to push the string and when they can't, you blame them instead of the fed where the blame ought to go. Do you honestly think banks would be lending to such unworthy people if the prime rate were 12%? Don't you think they would prefer to charge massive interest on loans? The fed defends its rate and banks must match it. They get into all these insane products and loans as a means of trying to earn money in an environment where the effective interest rate is negative on money thanks to the fed.



    Imagine for a moment Fellowship that the government demand you rent your properties at a loss. Imagine they actually claim that if you didn't meet their rent demands, they will physically build a replica building next to your own and rent it out at the rate they demand.(Which is what the fed does with it's own lending window)



    You have a couple choices since they are demanding you do this at a loss. You can board up the building, go home and be broke, or you can get creative and try to survive. You charge regular rents but have late fees of 50% of the rent. You mark up the utilities excessively. You allow no renovations, alterations or contract changes unless you get to renegotiate your rental agreement or charge disproportionately for allowing them. Etc...etc... any of this sound like the junk that banks have been engaging in?



    Now imagine that when the boom from artificially low rent comes to an end, you are blamed for it because you charged so much for utilities, for improvements, for late fees, etc. You didn't mandate the ridiculously low rents. The government did. You just provided the building and tried to survive.



    But it would still be the governments fault.



    You say that we ought to fix the problem but it isn't that easy. The U.S. has a very strong isolationist streak and so do I. Nothing would thrill me more than to bring every troop outside our borders home. Nothing would make me happier than to say that if your own economy does not have enough domestic demand to take some an equal number of imports from us, then we limit your exports to us. Make both these things happen and I would be the happiest man in the room.



    However I know history shows it isn't that easy. It is why even though I personally disagree with the actions, I begrudgingly understand them. How long were the countries at war with each other in Europe before we stepped in there? How long were various Pacific Rim countries fighting each other (mostly Japan and China) before we put an end to it and created a stalemate there. We have not done this in the Middle East and it continues to be a thorn in our side. When we ignore these problems they become Pearl Harbors and 9/11's.



    Right now we use incredible wealth to basically keep Europe safe. Europe responded by creating the EU. We use Japan as a hedge in the Pacific Rim and allow trade deficits in hopes that building kid toys will stop China from building bombs. We are like the girl among four boys who promises to flirt a bit and go on the occasional soda fountain date with all of them, even though it seems a bit trashy and you know those boys keep pressing. Occasionally one of them manages to get a hand up our shirt. They all lie to each other about what they did and will and won't do and we are the ones keeping the peace.



    Eventually it can't be kept. Eventually you probably end up raped or screwed.



    The problem is when those boys aren't flirting they are getting knives, and then guns, and then eventually more and they use them on each other and possibly us. We keep imagining the next 9/11 or the next Pearl Harbor happening with a nuke. Wouldn't it be nice if we could just leave them alone? I think so but the attention seems to come whether we want it or not.



    So yes, the U.S. is the whore of the world and we spread our capitalistic legs everywhere hoping that f*cking will keep people from fighting each other and us. Hump or death as Mel Brooks used to tease. I don't think it will work, but then nothing ever has. War, death destruction is pretty much the de facto standard for the planet and world history.



    We are trying something different to try to deviate from that and people claim that even though people are no longer killing each other to survive, their survival is still imperfect. It is uneven, unfair, less than ideal, non-utopian. They tear down the model that brought the deviation. I do not believe in doing so they will bring about utopia. I think it will cause a reversion to the norm. We will go back to war, suffering, working until you drop, etc. as the standard. You might say we are at war now and to have been for quite a while. A voluntary military conducting isolated battles is not the same as world or continent-wide battles cropping up and demanding a compulsary draft at least once per generation.
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