The title of this article implies that Steve Jobs said "there is no viable market" and that is not what he said. The fact that you explained things in the article does not justify you guys titling articles incorrectly to lure people in and then tell them something else....
That's exactly what SJ said, actually. His entire answer related to market forces. What were you watching?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Fix
They're just not trying hard enough. There's plenty of room out there for new TV related products.
Thanks, professor. They're not "trying hard enough?" Steve explained it very clearly. They can make a fantastic machine. The problem is getting it into the hands of users. The cable companies use different standards, and market their own boxes. They like to charge lots of money for additional features. I have 3 FiOS boxes in my home, for example. I pay $40 a month for those with Home Media DVR. It certainly doesn't cost Verizon $40 a month to let me have those boxes. They're not going to give up the money for nothing. The same is true of Comcast, TimeWarner and the other major players.
So where does that leave Apple? With AppleTV as it currently stands. If they add more functionality, the price goes up. As a consumer, it's a tough sell. Apple's product would have to replicate my current functionality. It would have to replace my multi-room DVR, tuner, DVD and Blu-ray players, etc.
Hobby? Good! It is supposed to be hobby as watching TV. Now if it is hobby for Apple... let me go XBMC/Boxee on some of ION nettops. After all hobby is hobby and some of us need to navigate media content while sitting at TV regardless where it is (local, commercial, internet... you name it).
Uhhh, that's because it's not a TV or Set-top box replacement; it never was. It's a DVD Player replacement. It's (at this moment) purely and simply about serving your iTunes media to your TV; that and nothing else. The "TV" in Apple TV is to do with connecting to a TV, not anything to with monitoring or storing programming from the traditional TV or Cable TV medium. Firmware or OS updates can change that in an instant.
And that's why Apple still class it as a hobby. When they shake up the TV industry like they have with the music, movie and phone industries, I am sure we will be the among the first to know. I bet they do have ideas. Furthermore, I bet those who have the current incarnation of Apple TV won't be disappointed, because whatever the shake-up is, they will be able to make use of it with their early Apple TVs.
If you like renting iTunes Movies for your large TV, if you like YouTube in your living room, if you like displaying photo albums of your grandkids with your own music in the background, if you don't like running out to the video store and running back to return movies, if you have lots of media in iTunes (and you can do a simple rip of your physical DVDs, then Apple TV is still a great product. Anyone expecting more may well be disappointed. Those who know what it does and use it for that really enjoy it.
Great response.
I never did really understand what the the Apple TV did in it's entirety. I wonder if there are tens of thousands like me? Perhaps the unit is mis-named? 'iTunes TV' might be more apt if all it does is serve up iTunes content via the TV screen.
Hang on... isn't Google TV built into the TV in some cases?
Lets say, hypothetically, that Google TV gets built into every single new TV. I have to wonder if Jobs would have the same opinion.
It's "not a viable market" because Jobs hasn't figured out how to make money from it yet. But Google has. They'll give their OS out to every box, tv and tv accessory maker. All those subsidized boxes from your cable provider? They'll all be running Google TV in 2 years.
Unfortunately for Jobs, the only way to make money on this front is to work with existing service providers (the cable cos.) - that means letting in cable/satellite TV on the box and selling Apple TV through the service providers (maybe for "free" like they do now, with other boxes). But Jobs can't stomach this model, so he says it's "not a viable market."
If he keeps up that attitude, Google will eat his lunch here. He has the potential for another iPhone here....if only he can get past his dislike of working with the cable cos.
With Job's it's best to read between the lines. It's my guess that Apple are up to something here.
Steve was strangely open. Thats not steve.
and the line ""I'm sure smarter people than us will figure this out," hmm whatever...
may as well be saying.. "you idiots go waste your time solving this 'problem' that I have misdirected you towards, whilst we come at this from an entirely different angle taking you all by surprise mwahahaha"
I agree. Much too forthcoming from Jobs. If what he is saying is true, then he is basically telling the customer "Hey we are not going to invest in this and may kill it soon. So don't bother buying one." No, I think you are right. Something is up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nees
Why are they talking about set-top boxes? Every TV manufacturer is already integrating all that stuff into their TV's. If Apple wants a TV hobby, they should consider building an Apple TV, which is an actual TV, not a set top box.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
I don't see Apple EVER offering a TV. Too much of the cost of a TV is something that Apple can't add value to. The biggest part of a TV is simply watching programming and competitors can buy the same screens that Apple can.
The only advantage Apple could have is in things like on-screen menus and switching between devices where their UI might be of value. But most people spend so little time there that it isn't worth a premium price.
can't add value to? Are you kidding? I am sure there were many execs who said the same about Apple and the cell phone.
"The biggest part of a TV is simply watching programming and competitors can buy the same screens that Apple can" -
You are missing the point. That is the precise reason there is potential. The TV can be more than just a I.V. drip of dumb reality shows. Apple could reduce the amount of devices in your entertainment centre and improve the whole UI experience and even the purpose for turning the TV on. A Wifi TV with the Internet, On Demand, Music, your home medial content and traditional Network/cable content all merged into one Apple UI experience, would be awesome.
Just think, no additional remotes. No changing inputs. No crazy wiring set up: This cable going to HDMI 1 and Component 2 and RCA input to Auxiliary to Tape Mon out to Front left speakers to … oh sh#t why won't the sound work when I switch to DVD? We have all been there behind the cabinet trying to play electrical engineer.
Apple signed a 5 year deal with LG a ways back. I would not be surprised if Apple does go into the TV business next.
Hang on... isn't Google TV built into the TV in some cases?
Lets say, hypothetically, that Google TV gets built into every single new TV. I have to wonder if Jobs would have the same opinion.
Yes it is. And here is one of the few places where Apple's business model fails. A digital movie device needs to be either a combo device with a DVD or Blu-Ray or it needs to exist as a reference platform to be included in other manufacturers devices. Apple wants to prove the optical disk movie is dead (when it isn't) and doesn't work with partners. I don't think Apple's current mindset is capable is making a device like this succeed. You also have the other white elephants in that there is no industry standard movie file and no import/export rights for your movies. Both played very important roles in the quick adoption of digital music.
Apple could also help the digital movie cause by acquiring elgato and including a TV tuner in the iMac. Add in some even larger screens, a full featured universal remote, and an optional blu-ray drive and Apple's already sitting on the living room device its been looking for. Apple just doesn't know it yet.
It's "not a viable market" because Jobs hasn't figured out how to make money from it yet. But Google has. They'll give their OS out to every box, tv and tv accessory maker. All those subsidized boxes from your cable provider? They'll all be running Google TV in 2 years.
And the revenue for Google comes from gathering as much "personal" information as they are allowed to in order to deliver targeted advertising (which as I understand it is holy-grail territory for advertisers)... correct?
So the next question. Why can't Apple do something similar?
With Job's it's best to read between the lines. It's my guess that Apple are up to something here.
Steve was strangely open. Thats not steve.
and the line ""I'm sure smarter people than us will figure this out," hmm whatever...
may as well be saying.. "you idiots go waste your time solving this 'problem' that I have misdirected you towards, whilst we come at this from an entirely different angle taking you all by surprise mwahahaha"
I would say this makes it official. No new iPhone sized AppleTV announced at WWDC.
Not necessarily.
Jobs said that no one wants to buy another box and that the solution was to "... tear up the set top box, redesign it from scratch with a consistent UI across all these different functions, and get it to consumers in a way that they're willing to pay for it. .."
This could easily be a description of the new Apple TV. If it streams, it's hardly a box at all, if it also stored everything in the cloud it would be a sort of super-Tivo/Netflix which is the only thing Apple TV is really missing right now other than content agreements.
The biggest part of a TV is simply watching programming and competitors can buy the same screens that Apple can.
It used to be that way, but not anymore. I am currently "forced" to use a Samsung TV with a network connection and Synology DLNA box to have a fully integrated home entertainment experience (internet, music, photo's, video, apps, on demand, cable, etc.), using just 1 remote and 1 device in front of me.
If Apple wants to compete with that, they'll have to come up with a TV which integrates it all, including iTunes and iPhoto access, because I won't be bothering with set-top boxes or other separate devices next to my TV anymore.
Hang on... isn't Google TV built into the TV in some cases?
Lets say, hypothetically, that Google TV gets built into every single new TV. I have to wonder if Jobs would have the same opinion.
He would have the same opinion. He said expensive set top boxes were the problem. Eliminating them would eliminate the problem. I'd wait and see what Google can get their platform integrated into before running around screaming how successful Google TV will be.
Steve Jobs statement could also be taken as Apple will be producing a TV with integrated Apple TV soon. The rumored $99 Apple TV would also match his sentiment here (it wouldn't be an expensive set top box). Or of course they could do nothing and wait and see if anyone else's ideas stick. Googles approach doesn't fit Apple, as they are a hardware company, they don't licence out their operating systems.
Just think, no additional remotes. No changing inputs. No crazy wiring set up: This cable going to HDMI 1 and Component 2 and RCA input to Auxiliary to Tape Mon out to Front left speakers to ? oh sh#t why won't the sound work when I switch to DVD? We have all been there behind the cabinet trying to play electrical engineer.
I think you're deluded if you think Apple can replace or significantly impact the home theater market. Sony, Pioneer, Onkyo, Denon, etc., etc. all have a wide variety of products at different feature and price points. And they compete very heavily on features and releasing new products to take advantage of new standards (HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc.). Apple MIGHT be able to release a Bose competitor - a nice all-in-one for the masses. Who knows, maybe they could pull another iPhone and shake up the industry players by redefining the home theater user experience and raising the bar significantly in that area, but I doubt it. Perhaps Light Peak can simplify the connection spaghetti, which would be pretty spiffy. But again, I won't hold my breath.
As for Google OS on TVs and set-top boxes. See the current situation with Android. Handset manufacturers don't keep the OS updated, and the carriers would rather sell a new phone with a 2 year contract than update the OS on a year old handset. Perhaps the set-top box market is different and the longer the cable co. can keep the same box in your home the more $$$ they make off of it so keeping the software up to date and feature rich is in their interest.
What I heard Steve say in the video is that there are far too many different standards in use to create a "universal" device that could even technically be adopted by enough cable, satellite, & OTA companies to be worthwhile, plus competing with the subsidized boxes from the content providers. Now, a pure TCP/IP box... Hmmm... I did not hear him talk about that play.
But again, if I have broadband to my home, it's most likely provided by a company that also provides TV and the cost of getting JUST Internet vs Internet & TV is minimal - the provider would rather sell you both vs either one. So, again, any pure IP based box is at a disadvantage.
Yes it is. And here is one of the few places where Apple's business model fails. A digital movie device needs to be either a combo device with a DVD or Blu-Ray or it needs to exist as a reference platform to be included in other manufacturers devices. Apple wants to prove the optical disk movie is dead (when it isn't) and doesn't work with partners. I don't think Apple's current mindset is capable is making a device like this succeed. You also have the other white elephants in that there is no industry standard movie file and no import/export rights for your movies. Both played very important roles in the quick adoption of digital music.
Apple could also help the digital movie cause by acquiring elgato and including a TV tuner in the iMac. Add in some even larger screens, a full featured universal remote, and an optional blu-ray drive and Apple's already sitting on the living room device its been looking for. Apple just doesn't know it yet.
Most of the ideas here like yours express what you want but no viable way to make money or the logistics of pulling multiple, potential competitors together. It's easy to state what you want but very difficult to produce a viable business model. I want a motorcyclecar. Honda makes decent motorcycles and they're really fun on sunny days. In poor weather and heavy traffic I would prefer the safety of four wheels and an enclosed cabin. Honda also makes these. They just need to combine the two and they'd have a hit. Hard to believe they won't work this out, it's clearly a goldmine.
Comments
The title of this article implies that Steve Jobs said "there is no viable market" and that is not what he said. The fact that you explained things in the article does not justify you guys titling articles incorrectly to lure people in and then tell them something else....
That's exactly what SJ said, actually. His entire answer related to market forces. What were you watching?
They're just not trying hard enough. There's plenty of room out there for new TV related products.
Thanks, professor. They're not "trying hard enough?"
So where does that leave Apple? With AppleTV as it currently stands. If they add more functionality, the price goes up. As a consumer, it's a tough sell. Apple's product would have to replicate my current functionality. It would have to replace my multi-room DVR, tuner, DVD and Blu-ray players, etc.
does this mean google will cancel their google tv plan?
They are running around screaming "OMG we thought Apple were going into this big time ... what have we done?"
They are running around screaming "OMG we thought Apple were going into this big time ... what have we done?"
I bet they are
Uhhh, that's because it's not a TV or Set-top box replacement; it never was. It's a DVD Player replacement. It's (at this moment) purely and simply about serving your iTunes media to your TV; that and nothing else. The "TV" in Apple TV is to do with connecting to a TV, not anything to with monitoring or storing programming from the traditional TV or Cable TV medium. Firmware or OS updates can change that in an instant.
And that's why Apple still class it as a hobby. When they shake up the TV industry like they have with the music, movie and phone industries, I am sure we will be the among the first to know. I bet they do have ideas. Furthermore, I bet those who have the current incarnation of Apple TV won't be disappointed, because whatever the shake-up is, they will be able to make use of it with their early Apple TVs.
If you like renting iTunes Movies for your large TV, if you like YouTube in your living room, if you like displaying photo albums of your grandkids with your own music in the background, if you don't like running out to the video store and running back to return movies, if you have lots of media in iTunes (and you can do a simple rip of your physical DVDs, then Apple TV is still a great product. Anyone expecting more may well be disappointed. Those who know what it does and use it for that really enjoy it.
Great response.
I never did really understand what the the Apple TV did in it's entirety. I wonder if there are tens of thousands like me? Perhaps the unit is mis-named? 'iTunes TV' might be more apt if all it does is serve up iTunes content via the TV screen.
Hang on... isn't Google TV built into the TV in some cases?
Lets say, hypothetically, that Google TV gets built into every single new TV. I have to wonder if Jobs would have the same opinion.
It's "not a viable market" because Jobs hasn't figured out how to make money from it yet. But Google has. They'll give their OS out to every box, tv and tv accessory maker. All those subsidized boxes from your cable provider? They'll all be running Google TV in 2 years.
Unfortunately for Jobs, the only way to make money on this front is to work with existing service providers (the cable cos.) - that means letting in cable/satellite TV on the box and selling Apple TV through the service providers (maybe for "free" like they do now, with other boxes). But Jobs can't stomach this model, so he says it's "not a viable market."
If he keeps up that attitude, Google will eat his lunch here. He has the potential for another iPhone here....if only he can get past his dislike of working with the cable cos.
Who cares about Cable?!
You will, when you realize that the HD content you want regularly makes you bust your bandwith cap and rack up huge overages.
Well, odd as in:
With Job's it's best to read between the lines. It's my guess that Apple are up to something here.
Steve was strangely open. Thats not steve.
and the line ""I'm sure smarter people than us will figure this out," hmm whatever...
may as well be saying.. "you idiots go waste your time solving this 'problem' that I have misdirected you towards, whilst we come at this from an entirely different angle taking you all by surprise mwahahaha"
I agree. Much too forthcoming from Jobs. If what he is saying is true, then he is basically telling the customer "Hey we are not going to invest in this and may kill it soon. So don't bother buying one." No, I think you are right. Something is up.
Why are they talking about set-top boxes? Every TV manufacturer is already integrating all that stuff into their TV's. If Apple wants a TV hobby, they should consider building an Apple TV, which is an actual TV, not a set top box.
Exactly.
I don't see Apple EVER offering a TV. Too much of the cost of a TV is something that Apple can't add value to. The biggest part of a TV is simply watching programming and competitors can buy the same screens that Apple can.
The only advantage Apple could have is in things like on-screen menus and switching between devices where their UI might be of value. But most people spend so little time there that it isn't worth a premium price.
can't add value to? Are you kidding? I am sure there were many execs who said the same about Apple and the cell phone.
"The biggest part of a TV is simply watching programming and competitors can buy the same screens that Apple can" -
You are missing the point. That is the precise reason there is potential. The TV can be more than just a I.V. drip of dumb reality shows. Apple could reduce the amount of devices in your entertainment centre and improve the whole UI experience and even the purpose for turning the TV on. A Wifi TV with the Internet, On Demand, Music, your home medial content and traditional Network/cable content all merged into one Apple UI experience, would be awesome.
Just think, no additional remotes. No changing inputs. No crazy wiring set up: This cable going to HDMI 1 and Component 2 and RCA input to Auxiliary to Tape Mon out to Front left speakers to … oh sh#t why won't the sound work when I switch to DVD? We have all been there behind the cabinet trying to play electrical engineer.
Apple signed a 5 year deal with LG a ways back. I would not be surprised if Apple does go into the TV business next.
Hang on... isn't Google TV built into the TV in some cases?
Lets say, hypothetically, that Google TV gets built into every single new TV. I have to wonder if Jobs would have the same opinion.
Yes it is. And here is one of the few places where Apple's business model fails. A digital movie device needs to be either a combo device with a DVD or Blu-Ray or it needs to exist as a reference platform to be included in other manufacturers devices. Apple wants to prove the optical disk movie is dead (when it isn't) and doesn't work with partners. I don't think Apple's current mindset is capable is making a device like this succeed. You also have the other white elephants in that there is no industry standard movie file and no import/export rights for your movies. Both played very important roles in the quick adoption of digital music.
Apple could also help the digital movie cause by acquiring elgato and including a TV tuner in the iMac. Add in some even larger screens, a full featured universal remote, and an optional blu-ray drive and Apple's already sitting on the living room device its been looking for. Apple just doesn't know it yet.
It's "not a viable market" because Jobs hasn't figured out how to make money from it yet. But Google has. They'll give their OS out to every box, tv and tv accessory maker. All those subsidized boxes from your cable provider? They'll all be running Google TV in 2 years.
And the revenue for Google comes from gathering as much "personal" information as they are allowed to in order to deliver targeted advertising (which as I understand it is holy-grail territory for advertisers)... correct?
So the next question. Why can't Apple do something similar?
Well, odd as in:
With Job's it's best to read between the lines. It's my guess that Apple are up to something here.
Steve was strangely open. Thats not steve.
and the line ""I'm sure smarter people than us will figure this out," hmm whatever...
may as well be saying.. "you idiots go waste your time solving this 'problem' that I have misdirected you towards, whilst we come at this from an entirely different angle taking you all by surprise mwahahaha"
agreed...
I would say this makes it official. No new iPhone sized AppleTV announced at WWDC.
Not necessarily.
Jobs said that no one wants to buy another box and that the solution was to "... tear up the set top box, redesign it from scratch with a consistent UI across all these different functions, and get it to consumers in a way that they're willing to pay for it. .."
This could easily be a description of the new Apple TV. If it streams, it's hardly a box at all, if it also stored everything in the cloud it would be a sort of super-Tivo/Netflix which is the only thing Apple TV is really missing right now other than content agreements.
Hang on... isn't Google TV built into the TV in some cases?
Lets say, hypothetically, that Google TV gets built into every single new TV. I have to wonder if Jobs would have the same opinion.
Lets say...it won't;-)
The biggest part of a TV is simply watching programming and competitors can buy the same screens that Apple can.
It used to be that way, but not anymore. I am currently "forced" to use a Samsung TV with a network connection and Synology DLNA box to have a fully integrated home entertainment experience (internet, music, photo's, video, apps, on demand, cable, etc.), using just 1 remote and 1 device in front of me.
If Apple wants to compete with that, they'll have to come up with a TV which integrates it all, including iTunes and iPhoto access, because I won't be bothering with set-top boxes or other separate devices next to my TV anymore.
The title of this article implies that Steve Jobs said "there is no viable market" and that is not what he said.
He said,
"The TV is going to lose until there's a better--until there's a viable--go to market strategy," Jobs said."
Hang on... isn't Google TV built into the TV in some cases?
Lets say, hypothetically, that Google TV gets built into every single new TV. I have to wonder if Jobs would have the same opinion.
He would have the same opinion. He said expensive set top boxes were the problem. Eliminating them would eliminate the problem. I'd wait and see what Google can get their platform integrated into before running around screaming how successful Google TV will be.
Steve Jobs statement could also be taken as Apple will be producing a TV with integrated Apple TV soon. The rumored $99 Apple TV would also match his sentiment here (it wouldn't be an expensive set top box). Or of course they could do nothing and wait and see if anyone else's ideas stick. Googles approach doesn't fit Apple, as they are a hardware company, they don't licence out their operating systems.
Just think, no additional remotes. No changing inputs. No crazy wiring set up: This cable going to HDMI 1 and Component 2 and RCA input to Auxiliary to Tape Mon out to Front left speakers to ? oh sh#t why won't the sound work when I switch to DVD? We have all been there behind the cabinet trying to play electrical engineer.
I think you're deluded if you think Apple can replace or significantly impact the home theater market. Sony, Pioneer, Onkyo, Denon, etc., etc. all have a wide variety of products at different feature and price points. And they compete very heavily on features and releasing new products to take advantage of new standards (HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc.). Apple MIGHT be able to release a Bose competitor - a nice all-in-one for the masses. Who knows, maybe they could pull another iPhone and shake up the industry players by redefining the home theater user experience and raising the bar significantly in that area, but I doubt it. Perhaps Light Peak can simplify the connection spaghetti, which would be pretty spiffy. But again, I won't hold my breath.
As for Google OS on TVs and set-top boxes. See the current situation with Android. Handset manufacturers don't keep the OS updated, and the carriers would rather sell a new phone with a 2 year contract than update the OS on a year old handset. Perhaps the set-top box market is different and the longer the cable co. can keep the same box in your home the more $$$ they make off of it so keeping the software up to date and feature rich is in their interest.
What I heard Steve say in the video is that there are far too many different standards in use to create a "universal" device that could even technically be adopted by enough cable, satellite, & OTA companies to be worthwhile, plus competing with the subsidized boxes from the content providers. Now, a pure TCP/IP box... Hmmm... I did not hear him talk about that play.
But again, if I have broadband to my home, it's most likely provided by a company that also provides TV and the cost of getting JUST Internet vs Internet & TV is minimal - the provider would rather sell you both vs either one. So, again, any pure IP based box is at a disadvantage.
Enough rambling.
- Jasen.
Yes it is. And here is one of the few places where Apple's business model fails. A digital movie device needs to be either a combo device with a DVD or Blu-Ray or it needs to exist as a reference platform to be included in other manufacturers devices. Apple wants to prove the optical disk movie is dead (when it isn't) and doesn't work with partners. I don't think Apple's current mindset is capable is making a device like this succeed. You also have the other white elephants in that there is no industry standard movie file and no import/export rights for your movies. Both played very important roles in the quick adoption of digital music.
Apple could also help the digital movie cause by acquiring elgato and including a TV tuner in the iMac. Add in some even larger screens, a full featured universal remote, and an optional blu-ray drive and Apple's already sitting on the living room device its been looking for. Apple just doesn't know it yet.
Most of the ideas here like yours express what you want but no viable way to make money or the logistics of pulling multiple, potential competitors together. It's easy to state what you want but very difficult to produce a viable business model. I want a motorcyclecar. Honda makes decent motorcycles and they're really fun on sunny days. In poor weather and heavy traffic I would prefer the safety of four wheels and an enclosed cabin. Honda also makes these. They just need to combine the two and they'd have a hit. Hard to believe they won't work this out, it's clearly a goldmine.
You will, when you realize that the HD content you want regularly makes you bust your bandwith cap and rack up huge overages.
Yes but you are describing the present. I'm hypothesising the future.