Apple posts videos of press conference, antenna performance, test chambers

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  • wovelwovel Posts: 953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    Part of the issue is the spin Apple had on the problem. They made it appear most phones have just as bad of a reception issue. False. They only offered a free fix until the end of Sep. They made no mention of attempting to fix the issue by other means. And btw, it's not just the first batch. If that was the case, Apple would have stated that fact. It's great you don't have the issue. But my theory is that the issue only affects one of the two bands (850 or 1900) AT&T uses. You might be serviced by the unaffected band.



    Steve said more than once that they are investigating other solutions..Not exactly no mention. It is amazing how many people just tune things out that don't fit their world view.
  • jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,338member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    First, Apple is offering a free fix TODAY. Why aren't they recommending it today?





    They are not offering a fix, they are offering a work around, big difference.
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,562member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post




    On another note (not in reply to the quote above):



    People should just get used to the fact that Apple won this round and get on with their lives. Those that believe that Apple is somehow lying or dissembling about the facts they presented today are basically nutcases. One has to believe that they all got up there and lied, and that's just not credible at all. The CEO and all the top guys (who have a lawsuit against them on the issue no less), are going to get up on stage and lie about this stuff? Seriously?



    I like this quote from Jobs to a reporter after the conference, I think it really illustrates what happened here:



    (talking about the tech bloggers) ... "In search of eyeballs, people don’t care what they leave in their wake. … in 34 years haven’t we earned trust and get benefit of the doubt? I am not saying we are not at fault. We are not just innocents in this."



    This really sums it up for me. Apple has almost never done the kind of nefarious junk that other companies do every day, yet they get pilloried in the press over and over again. How many times does the tech press have to ascribe nasty motives to Apple and Jobs and be proven totally wrong, before they actually give these guys the benefit of the doubt once or twice?



    Apple has always been a great company IMO. Why do we always (well not me but most folks), seem to assume they are lying, conniving, money-grubbing egomaniacs? There has never been any evidence that Apple is like that or that Steve jobs is like that. So why do all the tech bloggers seem to jump to that conclusion? Why do half the posters on this forum immediately look to the dark side of every comment out of Cupertino?



    I say we should give these hard-working geniuses the benefit of the doubt and enjoy the wonderful phone that three years ago you wouldn't even have dreamed of. Maybe (shock!) even send Steve Jobs a thank you card once in a while.



    To answer your "Why" question: Envy!





    I think you just did (send Steve Jobs a thank you card).





    Let me add mine!



    Over a span of 32 years, I have had dealings with Apple as:



    -- a customer / end user of Apple products and services

    -- an Apple dealer / reseller of Apple products and services

    -- a presenter of Apple solutions at trade shows

    -- a vendor, selling products and services to Apple

    -- a co-developer with Apple on a software project

    -- an investor in AAPL stock

    -- an independent developer of apps for iOS devices.

    -- an observer of Apple as a corporate citizen

    -- a bit of a wag or outspoken commenter on "things Apple"



    I've seen Apple make mistakes-- a few major ones, and many so minor as to elude memory.



    When we had the computer stores in Silicon Valley, we prided ourselves on being the "best Apple stores"-- anywhere.



    We were fortunate to hire (part time) some Apple employees to supplement our staff.



    We were honored when our top employees, who had outgrown us, went to work for Apple-- it was a great recruiting tool.



    I have been involved in tough dealings with Apple and some that did not turn out the way I would have preferred.



    In every case (in all the roles above), we/I were treated professionally and fairly.





    In 1978, I left a great (well paying and secure) job at IBM to enter the exciting world of microcomputers.



    ... It was July 1978, and I had been looking ay various microcomputers and decided that I wanted an Apple ][. My wife, Lucy, said we could buy one for my upcoming birthday. On a Saturday, we set out to buy one. There were only 4 (known) Computer Stores in Silicon Valley-- a few so new that they weren't listed in the telephone directory. After driving around for several hours, hot, totally frustrated (computer stores weren't open on weekends, back then) we headed for home. Lucy said that she had read in the local paper that Apple was building its headquarters in Cupertino and she thought she could find it. What the hell, it was worth a try! After a bit of sleuthing, over dirt roads and construction sites, we arrived at Bandley Drive-- no road signs, street numbers just a small paper sign on the building that said Apple.



    We opened the door and found ourselves in a room about 80' x 60'. It was chaos! People in business suits, casual dress, some scruffy people sitting on the floor with an Apple ][ doing something. A young woman at kind of a counter, who would wait on people-- then disappear into the back room. Everyone talking excitedly, loudly, laughing. We were hot, tired and frustrated and we had walked into this snake pit. The atmosphere wasn't only electric-- it sizzled. They were wheeling and dealing, jockeying for position, talking and laughing... laughing... laughing!



    Lucy and I looked at each other-- what ever they were breathing, we wanted some.



    I didn't get my Apple ][ until a few months later (Apple production couldn't keep up with demand, back then).



    Things moved fast, and by December, Lucy, my two partners and I opened the 5th computer store in Silicon valley (less than a mile from Apple HQ on Bandley).



    Our corporate goals:



    1) Provide a return (profit) to our investors



    2) To provide the best available products and services to our customers



    3) To have fun





    The first 2 were based on our background at IBM.



    Number 3 was inspired by that day of chaos at Bandly.



    It was a hell of a ride and we never [well almost never] regretted it.





    The Apple of 2010 reminds me a lot of the Apple of 1978-- its still exciting and it's still fun!





    People could claim I am biased, an Apple Fan Boy, love Apple products, have a vested interest as an AAPL shareholder...



    ... My answer to them:



    Damn straight I am!



    Do you expect me to buy a Compaq or a Sony just to prove I'm objective.



    Should i wander the bowels of an arcane smartphone menu system to prove I'm having fun?



    Should I invest in Dell or Microsoft to provide for my family's future?





    I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid!





    Apple provides the best products, services and support for my needs!



    AAPL provides a sound investment for growth and security.



    I am watching you, Apple-- and I like what you are doing!



    It is still exciting and I am still having fun!





    Why look elsewhere?





    Thanks Apple! Thanks Steve!



    .
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,562member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by battlescarred1 View Post


    1 dropped call per 100. There are billions of calls a day. That's a lot of dropped calls! \



    99% of billions of successful calls per day. That's a lot of successful calls!



    (See how that works?)



    .
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,562member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    Yes, true. If they avoid touching the seam. The issue, the flaw. The seam that is easily touched by naturally holding the phone.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post


    Ah, but how was the phone being held?



    You guys are absurd!





    You have a new Beemer! Down the block is a pothole, speed bump, 2 by 4, whatever.



    You see it, know it will damage your car, but continue to drive over it because you think it's a flaw that shouldn't be there.



    If you feel so strongly, why don't you sue Apple and force them to fix the "flaw".



    .
  • digitalclipsdigitalclips Posts: 15,575member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    You guys are absurd!





    You have a new Beemer! Down the block is a pothole, speed bump, 2 by 4, whatever.



    You see it, know it will damage your car, but continue to drive over it because you think it's a flaw that shouldn't be there.



    If you feel so strongly, why don't you sue Apple and force them to fix the "flaw".



    .







    Not only are most of them absurd most of them don't own an iPhone.
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,562member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bagman View Post


    Thanks for your comments. I have grown tired of other infantile comments that I haven't heard since my playground days many decades ago.



    First of all, for anyone who may be interested, I have virtually all my IRA and individual account money in Apple stock, so show me anyone else who is making critical comments against Apple, as I am, and I would believe their thoughts over anyone who professes to have no financial interest - why in God's name would I take the time to make the comments I've made against this phone, when I loved every aspect of it immensely, except for the reception issue, which was an ultimate deal-breaker for me, when my portfolio stood to drop so much (no, I'm not shorting or leveraged at all - am strictly long). I don't like the feel of bumpers or cases, and never had to use them before on my 3G or 3GS, so don't tell me this is a fix - this sidesteps the issue.



    After getting my iP4 on June 23rd, and immediately activating it on ATT, I began to notice the problem, as I always hold the phone in my left hand, to better type on the screen with my right. I got tired of watching my downloads stop completely, so many times, in so many different areas of the city, that I went down to Apple to ask why. The Apple guy blew me off, said he couldn't replicate the issue, so I was out of luck, and sent me back to ATT. Going one block away from the Apple store was all it took to replicate the problem again, getting it to drop data downloading again. This indicated to me that you won't see anyone complaining about dropped data or calls in an Apple store (signal repeaters take care of that, so I'm told) and in returning to the ATT store, I had the self same experience, but only had to go 50 yards away from the ATT store to get it to drop signal integrity again. The folks at ATT had already heard of the problem, as many had already dropped in to complain (this was in the first week after introduction).



    So, I have to take issue with anyone who says that, since only .55% of Apple Care complaints have been filed, it is a small problem - this is utter and spurious nonsense. I have been involved with University research for over 20 years, am published, and know how controlled studies are tested and reported. This nonsensical "factoid" from Jobs says nothing about the true rate of the problem, and doesn't even approach non-parametric statistical testing standards (for small samples). I would surmise this was the only data he could lay his hands on, and doubt my encounter at Apple was even recorded, since I didn't have an appointment at the Genius Bar. ATT certainly would be getting the most complaints, but I suppose they don't keep track either, or, at least, Jobs was told to say nothing about ATT's experience by his lawyers.



    My own little experiments (non-statistical of course) with 2 other iP4 phones (owned by my patients) gave me identical attenuation results and stopped downloading each time it was tried (at least in my office, which showed a relatively strong cell tower strength of 5 bars of strength with 4.0 software with each iP4 phone, and shows 4 bars now with my 3Gs on 4.0.1 software under the new algorithms. Only had to touch the dreaded "3G spot" lightly in all cases, to get each iP4 phone to stop downloading; the dreaded death grip wasn't necessary.



    I had a lengthy discussion with a fellow passenger on the plane to Denver July 2nd. He was, by sheer coincidence, the head sales representative of Bayer International film and coatings division. He has been in the business for over 10 years. He agreed with me that maybe one of their urethane industrial coatings may solve the problem - it is one of the toughest polymer coatings available, and is likely to provide protection and insulation properties - just what you would want. I told him he probably should send an email to Jobs, but I suspect that Apple engineers have already deduced this as a potential option.



    Anyhow, after much deliberation, I decided that, while I LOVE the iP4 phone in every way possible, I chose not to tolerate the reception issue, which was never a problem compared to my 3G and 3GS, I decided that the engineers must be working on a fix that involves the antenna (Jobs even let a phrase slip that they may decide to solve the problem by moving the problem out of the way - or words to that effect). This suggest to me that, if I wait a little longer to re-purchase the phone, they will make an antenna adjustment, perhaps move the area of maximum attenuation to the middle of the bottom of the phone (just guessing, since they can't move it to the side or top, so I'm told, due to FCC requirements). I honestly don't believe this is solvable with a software fix, unless you can somehow shift sensitivity to other areas of the antenna to compensate, utilizing software alone (wild-ass guess here). Anyhow, that's my hope for a fix I can live with.



    Yes, I went through a lot of trouble getting the iP4, selling my 3G on ebay, returning my iP4, and buying a 3Gs on ebay. Did I do the right thing - for me YES, and let the folks who disagree with my decision respect my right to make my own decision. I tried to approach the problem first with disbelief, then with studied analysis, I believe I have approached it in a reasoned, methodical manner, and, even though I love the phone, I will not be repurchasing this first version of the iP4 unless I give up hope that Apple will provide a hardware fix (once again folks, save the ranting about me being a whiner, crybaby, or whatever, and save your sanctimonious preaching about me using a bumper or case to solve the problem. While I agree that the iP4 may indeed be a better phone all around than the 3G and 3GS, for my type of activity, it didn't quite fill the bill, and the 3Gs is OK (I will miss the screen sharpness, the photo and video capabilities, but most of my activities on the iPhone involve internet surfing, plane vanilla data downloading, and I will not use a bumper or case for a variety of reasons - I loved the Rolex example someone gave earlier - why would I put a beautiful Rolex in a plastic or rubber bumper?



    Do I love Apple's products - you bet! do I recommend all of their products - blindly and without reservation - no way. Each to their own, and I respect the ability of us all to agree to disagree on many things. I respect the rational dialogue and discourse, but am intolerant of personal affronts and attacks on my integrity. I am neither a troll nor a fanboi, and will remain as objective as I can on all matters related to my association with Apple products and management.



    So.... I don't perceive that I have a problem that should give anyone heartburn, but I do have the facts before me that prompted my decision - please save the recriminations, life it too short, and this is not the forum for schoolyard intolerance.



    Well said and well done!



    Thanks for taking the time to post that!





    I admire those who stand up for their principles and back them with action! You've done so with class!



    As an admitted Apple fan and shareholder, I hope that Apple will, soon, provide a solution that meets your needs-- it really is a wonderful phone.





    "Well done is better than well said."

    - Benjamin Franklin -



    .
  • ski1ski1 Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    You guys are absurd!





    You have a new Beemer! Down the block is a pothole, speed bump, 2 by 4, whatever.



    You see it, know it will damage your car, but continue to drive over it because you think it's a flaw that shouldn't be there.



    If you feel so strongly, why don't you sue Apple and force them to fix the "flaw".



    .





    Nice scenario that has no similarities to the real issue. !! LOL. How about a scenario thats more similar to the issue.



    You have a new Beemer. But, the steering wheel will only turn if you have your hands on the top and the bottom of the steering wheel. If you put your hands on the sides (where most people natural hold one), the steering wheel will not work. But if you decide to put on gloves, then you can turn the steering in that natural position.
  • dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 11,562member, moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    Nice scenario that has no similarities to the real issue. !! LOL. How about a scenario thats more similar to the issue.



    You have a new Beemer. But, the steering wheel will only turn if you have your hands on the top and the bottom of the steering wheel. If you put your hands on the sides (where most people natural hold one), the steering wheel not work. But if you decide to put on gloves, then you can turn the steering in that natural position.



    I rest my case!



    .
  • ski1ski1 Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    I rest my case!



    .



    LOL, thanks for agreeing !!! LOL My scenario is a lot more similar to the real iPhone 4 issue then your crazy scenario. lol
  • samurai1999samurai1999 Posts: 274member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post




    I almost bought a house with a cracked foundation. I kept telling myself it would be worth it to pay and have it fixed, but in the end, my Dad needed to step in and show me how silly I sounded.



    So you're saying that the iPhone 4 is like a house with a cracked foundation?

    - very good simile

  • samurai1999samurai1999 Posts: 274member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    The whole argument can be wrapped up in a single sentence: If you have this issue and a case isn't good enough, return it before 30 days, otherwise you can't complain because it's now known Apple won't replace it, or change the way it's made.



    Very good point

    - you have been warned!



    - no more class action after this date





    And the 30-day return means that they avoid class-actions from current owners (who've had it for less than 30 days)
  • jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by erpx View Post


    I love iPhone 4 and wouldn't trade it in for nothing.



    I wouldn't trade mine for nothing, either. But if someone offers me SOMETHING, I would consider it-depending on what the something is.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    Really? The press I'm seeing, from reputable outlets at least, is either swinging slightly positive or at least neutral (while they try to save some face by at least not pulling an abrupt reverse CR maneuver, Even CR is trying to avoid another immediate flip flop).



    Actually, CR's response is getting them in even more hot water. In their blog, they acknowledged that Apple had provided the free fixes they had requested, but since Apple said that they'll reevaluate at the end of September, CR STILL won't give the 'Recommended' rating. So Apple did what they requested and they're still whining. If I buy a phone before Sept 30, it comes with a free bumper which CR says solves the problem - why should I care whether someone who plans to buy next year might not get a bumper? At worst, CR should have said "recommended - if you get the bumper".



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    I'm a software developer so I'm familiar with development and testing. But I don't go around bragging and patting myself on the back on how much thorough high tech testing we do, in the same breath I'm admitting what I (and many people) consider a pretty big flaw. Then downplay the flaw, and produce numbers that don't accurately reflect the true amount of people affected by the flaw.



    So you have numbers that are more accurate than Apple's numbers?



    This is why you trolls get such a bad name. First, someone claims that they've seen the queue of people asking for free bumpers and it includes the people on this site - which is, of course, absolute nonsense.



    Now, you're claiming that you have better data than Apple.



    Look, if you're going to troll, at least try to present something plausible, OK?





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bagman View Post


    First of all, for anyone who may be interested, I have virtually all my IRA and individual account money in Apple stock,



    Sorry, you lost me there and I didn't read your long screed. Anyone who is foolish enough to put all of their investments in one stock doesn't have the brains to be offering advice to others.



    [QUOTE=ski1;1677710Apple bragged about how much testing they used when developing the iPhone 4. I'm surprised they didn't see this issue a long time ago with all that testing. Seems like they try to have it both ways. They say they do extensive testing in high tech labs, but yet they say they didn't see this issue.[/QUOTE]



    So?



    If you've ever really done testing (your posts are so full of BS that it's hard to believe anything you say), you know that some things don't appear even in field trials and only appear after product launch. The best product testing still fails to catch some flaws.



    In this case, the flaw is subtle. First, it's a problem experienced by all phones, so we're looking for an increase in an effect that everything else has. And the increase compared to the 3GS is relatively modest, so it probably fell within the statistical error. So you've got lab tests that saythe reception is incredible. You have field tests that don't show a major problem. It's not surprising that they launched.
  • nhtnht Posts: 3,045member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bagman View Post


    First of all, for anyone who may be interested, I have virtually all my IRA and individual account money in Apple stock



    That is an incredibly bad idea...I recommend diversifying away even though APPL has really been awesome. Enron stock was amazing too...for a while. Not that APPL is likely to go the route of Enron but Jobs cant live forever.
  • abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,497member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RYOSAEBAXYZ View Post


    Hello People Out there,



    I'm usually part of those who keep their mouths shut when it's not necessary to open it ; but watching the bull that just delivred to us Steve Jobs (whom I admire otherwise) led me to think that we should all participate to something that may make him go 360 on what he said :

    How about we all take 2 min of our time and call APPLECARE and tell them how bad the Antenna is ... just so that their know the real number of unsatisfied people..



    what do you say ? shall we all do it throughout the world ?



    I think we all should if we all had the iPhone 4.



    Fortunately 99.45% of the assholes complaining the most here don't own an iPhone 4 and perusing through some of their previous postings, most hit this sight and dis everything Apple at the drop of the hat.



    Interesting these same idiots complained about Apple not responding and now that they have, it is all lies to them. And one wonders why its best to not try to clean up others' piles of shit.
  • ski1ski1 Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    So you have numbers that are more accurate than Apple's numbers?



    This is why you trolls get such a bad name. First, someone claims that they've seen the queue of people asking for free bumpers and it includes the people on this site - which is, of course, absolute nonsense.



    Now, you're claiming that you have better data than Apple.



    Look, if you're going to troll, at least try to present something plausible, OK?



    LOl. You are the troll that has a bad name around here. How old are you anyway ? Anyway, I'll stop stooping to your childish level and name call. I never said I had better data then Apple, Strawman !!! Lol. I said Apple's data does not realistically show the true number of people experiencing this issue. Sorry you are so closed minded to understand why. It's sad that Apple had to spin the story, point fingers at other phones, and whine.
  • samurai1999samurai1999 Posts: 274member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    In this case, the flaw is subtle. First, it's a problem experienced by all phones, so we're looking for an increase in an effect that everything else has. And the increase compared to the 3GS is relatively modest, so it probably fell within the statistical error. So you've got lab tests that saythe reception is incredible. You have field tests that don't show a major problem. It's not surprising that they launched.



    Am I the only one who thought 'ooooohhh' when SJ showed that the outer band of the phone was the Antenna?

    - my first thought was that at a naive level, it could be problematic

    - but then when SJ explained how great it was, and how clever Apple were to think of it, I kinda assumed that they had designed out the obvious problem of signal loss when the antenna was touched!



    Note to self: I guess, my initial naive reaction was correct!

    \



    Was anyone else perplexed when Apple started advertising jobs for Antenna experts *after* the iPhone4 release?

    - you'd think they would hire the experts before, right?
  • ski1ski1 Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    So?



    If you've ever really done testing (your posts are so full of BS that it's hard to believe anything you say), you know that some things don't appear even in field trials and only appear after product launch. The best product testing still fails to catch some flaws.



    In this case, the flaw is subtle. First, it's a problem experienced by all phones, so we're looking for an increase in an effect that everything else has. And the increase compared to the 3GS is relatively modest, so it probably fell within the statistical error. So you've got lab tests that saythe reception is incredible. You have field tests that don't show a major problem. It's not surprising that they launched.



    Your posts are the ones full of BS and spins. Anyway, this issue was first reported less then 24 hours after launch. Point being, this is an obvious flaw that quickly came to light. So why is Apple bragging about their thorough hi-tech testing, when they missed such an obvious flaw. And why is Apple patting themselves on the back with their testing, and proudly showing their labs, when they missed such an obvious flaw ? And why is Apple trying to coverup the true number of people that are experiencing this issue by throwing out statistics that do not accurately represent the true numbers ? Spin, spin, spin.



    Btw, sorry you are so blinded by the spin that you believe the iPhone 4's issue is similar to other phones. Most independent experts disagree.
  • sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post


    The average user actually does need FTM,







    The average user needs FTM as much as they need HDMI: Not at all.
  • anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,558member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ski1 View Post


    I'm a software developer so I'm familiar with development and testing. But I don't go around bragging and patting myself on the back on how much thorough high tech testing we do, in the same breath I'm admitting what I (and many people) consider a pretty big flaw. Then downplay the flaw, and produce numbers that don't accurately reflect the true amount of people affected by the flaw.



    They aren't bragging and patting themselves on the back. One of the stupid criticisms leveled at them was that they, "obviously didn't test the new iPhone. Obviously they did. Obviously if you are a developer none of this is as mysterious to you as you pretend. Obviously it's really not the problem it's been made out to be. And, obviously, you'd like us to believe their numbers are misleading, but just as obviously your assertions are based on nothing at all.
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